Scylla's Robe of Healing or Daystar Robe? (WHM)

I have both, and I'm pretty sure the answer will be, "depends on what you want to do."

Daystar Robe (iLVL 110):
Vitality 41
Mind 39
Accuracy 8
Critical Hit Rate 29
Piety 31

Scylla's Robe (iLVL 100):
Vitality 35
Mind 34
Accuracy 8
Determination 19
Spell Speed 38

The obvious differences here are in the inclusion/exclusion of the last two attributes as well as the item levels. My MP and HP are a lot higher with the inclusion of the Daystar Robe, but I see more people with Scylla's Robe. Seems the Daystar Robe is better for those times when you have to do some DPS but Scylla's is for those healing intense moments. I would think that it would be worth the iLVL drop to use Scylla's Robe for situations where healing and a scholar is available and the Daystar Robe is right for battles when I have to help burn down items.

It's hard to see that drop of about HP, MP, and iLVL when I don Scylla's Robe, you know? A bit of a blow to the ego.

Think the reason most people have it is because it's easier to obtain, just farm ST. ST isn't that healing intense, I got mine there on my first run and have just used it since and got other Scylla set stuff or soldiery for everything else.

the stats you have posted for daystar robe are after the upgrade which is ilvl 110

Mind > Anything if you want to get serious. So Daystar.

I never had a chance to freaking obtain the t7 healer robe since I keep losing rolls on it...but I currently have Daystar and a bit of extra crit doesn't hurt. Actually helps with Determination 305+ (I think I'm currently at 340? Forget.... I just got a t8 belt yesterday...)

With all the SOL gear as whm you should be able to have more than 300 Det... but I would buy items that are with DET first than buying body first if you haven't yet.

Assuming you are talking about the weathered daystar robe and not the upgraded one...

Both are perfectly fine for pretty much everything in the game right now. I use the Scylla's robe myself until we beat T7 and I manage to get a High allagan robe. Maybe consider using the one that helps you out in stats you are lower in? Of course if you already have the upgraded Daystar robe just use that, the MND increase will be more worth it as was mentioned.

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Originally Posted by ZeratoTyrael

the stats you have posted for daystar robe are after the upgrade which is ilvl 110

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Yes, I did not mean Weathered Daystar. I had already upgraded my Weathered to Daystar weeks ago. I have fixed the typo in my initial post. iLVL for Daystar is 110, not 100. Thanks for pointing that out.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Assuming you are talking about the weathered daystar robe and not the upgraded one...

Both are perfectly fine for pretty much everything in the game right now. I use the Scylla's robe myself until we beat T7 and I manage to get a High allagan robe. Maybe consider using the one that helps you out in stats you are lower in? Of course if you already have the upgraded Daystar robe just use that, the MND increase will be more worth it as was mentioned.

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Perfect, and I did upgrade to Daystar already. I have the Daystar circlet and Scylla's boots and belt of healing. All I have left are the Coulettes (sp?). I don't want to be iLVL 1XX for the sake of it. I want to make sure that I put the right stats in the right places. Thanks.

Stat weights sometimes matter, but not enough in this case. If the Scylla was DET/CRIT and Daystar were PIE/SPD, then it would be better. Seeing as that's not the case, i110 reigns.

You can see generally accepted stat weights at Ariyala's calculator.

Daystar Robe, not even a contest.

Thanks for the input folks, and it validates why I got the Daystar in the beginning. Makes me wish I would have taken sand or another tombstone. :D

I like the look of the Daystar Robe on my character as well. I guess Scylla's robe will wind up on my CNJ retainer. :D

WHM - Scylla priorities PIE MND Crit doesnt benefit WHMs
SCH - Daystar CRT benefits SCH DPS wise and healing wise

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

WHM - Scylla priorities PIE MND Crit doesnt benefit WHMs

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Right and wrong in one sentence. Yes, White Mages don't have much use for crit compared to Scholar. Wrong, as the determination on the Scylla Robe hardly compensates for the MND difference. That aside, the Daystar Robe has Piety while the Scylla robe does not. You mentioned it yourself that a White Mage prioritises MND and PIE - and determination if I may add. With that statement it doesn't make sense to take the Scylla robe over the daystar robe, where the Daystar Robe has both more MND and more PIE.

Ideally, however, as a white mage you'd want the High Allagan Coat of Healing, which has Piety and Determination. Two stats you'd want as a white mage.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

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Apologies, I didnt read OP stats, usually Scylla gear is piety, personally on my WHM I have SS up there in the stats department.

Yes in this case Daystar is the better of the two, with HA being BIS

The way the game is made, high ilvl is always better than any secondary stats. 100% of the time. At which point you choose a bis out of the i110 gear

Well its not but w.e

Since we've arrived at this point. For White mage i110 gear always outperforms any lower level gear. The only exception I can think of would be black mage (due to their general higher scaling with secondary stats) and only in the most favourable conditions. Swapping in all your accessories and belt for penta-melded crafted pieces gives you 6-7 points worth of statweight more than i110 at the cost of 300-400 HP. But this is black mage, back to White Mage (or healing classes in general). It takes 25-28 determination to increase HP recovered with Cure by 10, but only 5 Mind to reach the same effect. There isn't a single piece of <i110 gear that exceeds 20 determination. So it's a no brainer that no piece can bridge the gap healing-wise with just determination.

Tanks going DPS mode with enough i110 armor to cover their HP needs fall under the same boat of "I can do better with pentamelded i90 jewelry". Black Mages and perhaps Monks can take advantage of using every secondary enough to justify it, but that's still for DPS' sake. Healers still have to think healing first; for healing strength, item levels do indeed become the main focus until you have the room to play around with same level gear.

The way I see it is... do you have the higher ilvl gear if so then no debate, if not... do you have problem keeping people alive with your current gear(no issues running out of mp, or need to enrage heal) if yes then upgrade if not then wait for that drop(if going for it).

I have Scylias pants(will prob replace thos this week with the sol ones) and robe on my whm atm. But I priorotized(after I sorted out my bard) weapon first, accessories, then a few sol gear pieces that had det/piety or were just a slot in until I get something better.

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Originally Posted by Altonfenri

The way the game is made, high ilvl is always better than any secondary stats. 100% of the time. At which point you choose a bis out of the i110 gear

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Not 100% of the time, I would more say like 98% of the time, so, if you take the best ilvl item first, in 98% of case, you doing good (and in the 2% rest, it's not that bad anyway)

For Scholar for exemple, the ST gloves are slighty better thenboth High Allagan and Daystar Gloves, becoz there is critical rate on, and only a small lost of mind (not like the robe, if you take a ilvl 100 robe, you lose a lot of mind)

For the topic : As WHM, the best robe first, is the High Allagan from T7 if you can get there, and second, is the Daystar Robe (if upgraded to 110)

Spellspeed is painfully overrated. Despite the crit not being particularly desirable either, Daystar has a healthy helping of Piety which makes it a pretty strong contender.

I've never found spellspeed overrated in the least. I pair up a lot with WHMs who have great healing power but end up dropping tanks because they can't get the spell off in time.

Honestly, I have both the Daystar robe and the Scylla robe and I love being able to get a cure off in time rather than after the tank or DPS is dead. People play WHM differently but it doesn't have to be a cure beast with the sacrifice of being slow as dirt even with food.

Concerning Spell speed for healers:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...n-Nexus-weapon

At the risk of spilling the conversation from that other thread over here, I'll reiterate the point that even huge spellspeed stacking only minimally decreases the casting time of the most commonly used heals, which shouldn't even be an issue if the healer is properly anticipating incoming damage and precasting/mitigating.

If someone says that they like spellspeed on their healer because that's just what they like, that's fine; there just aren't many actual arguments for it as a build strategy.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

I've never found spellspeed overrated in the least. I pair up a lot with WHMs who have great healing power but end up dropping tanks because they can't get the spell off in time.

Honestly, I have both the Daystar robe and the Scylla robe and I love being able to get a cure off in time rather than after the tank or DPS is dead. People play WHM differently but it doesn't have to be a cure beast with the sacrifice of being slow as dirt even with food.

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That is a skill and prediction problem, which can be fixed without needing bad stats like Spell Speed.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

At the risk of spilling the conversation from that other thread over here, I'll reiterate the point that even huge spellspeed stacking only minimally decreases the casting time of the most commonly used heals, which shouldn't even be an issue if the healer is properly anticipating incoming damage and precasting/mitigating.

If someone says that they like spellspeed on their healer because that's just what they like, that's fine; there just aren't many actual arguments for it as a build strategy.

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Wouldn't want to dissapoint you about starting this up all again..... And the part about there not being actual arguments sort of annoys me so I'll repost my findings (Granted this was back in 2.0 but the general ideas still hold) And really it comes down to all secondary stats are a personal taste. Which is why I dislike when people suggest otherwise to those seeking advice. At least be honest about the discussion.



I'm using http://syncness.me/ffxiv to calculate changes to average heals based on gear change.

SS > DET > CRIT I end up with
INT: 210
MND: 497
PIE: 407
DTR: 249
CRT: 341
SPSD: 510

DET > SS > CRIT ends up with
INT: 210
MND: 497
PIE: 406
DTR: 304
CRT: 341
SPSD: 433


Basing all averages off of Cure 1

Average for SS build is 1040.34 vs 1066 for DET which translates into just a difference of just 3.8 HPS in favor of the SS build (essentially non existent)

Cast time is 1.871 seconds for SS, 1.93 for DET

Using Presence of Mind in critical moments gets 1.482 vs 1.6


Conclusions:

The difference in healing is negligible, as a WHM there is no issue with the healing output of our spells. As encounters in end game content seems to trend towards spike damage, getting a tank out of the danger zone is more important than getting an extra 25 HPs restored per cure. The big help here is remembering to use presence of mind as that's when you'll see the biggest difference between the two specs (.118 seconds). Both determination and spell speed take a huge amount to see any change at all, so it really is personally preference as far as which is better.

God, not this again. Healing is nothing like DPS where higher DPS is better. In healing cases: Having higher HPS isn't necessarily better. Whether you're capable of healing 3000 HPS or 1000 HPS, each encounter only has a certain amount of (combined) HPS required and, as the group progresses and gears up, should in fact slowly get lower from time to time. Spell speed has no obvious advantage with proper planning. In fact, you'll just have more idle time than anything. In practice you won't be casting heals around the clock without bloating your HPS without a crazy amount of overhealing. Determination, on the other hand, may not have a large increase. But it restores more HP for the MP spend and the stat will become more valuable with each patch that introduces better gear. Spell speed, on the other hand, might reduce your casting time by 0.1s more, but that also means 0.1s more idle time after each cast unless you are casting around the clock. Which, again, never works that way in practice.

Please refer to this topic for a discussion why spell speed is pointless.

edit:
I should also add that MP comes in play as well. It's nice and all if you can match the same HPS output with both spell speed and determination build. But without MP the support or sustain it, it's all pointless. For Spell speed builds match up with determination builds in terms of HPS, Spell Speed builds would require a bit more heals cast throughout the encounter. Which equals more mp spend/second. I'm not an advocate of full determination builds, however. A balance of determination and piety is key. Where a balance of spell speed and determination would hurt your ability to sustain. A balance of spell speed piety would nowhere be as efficient as determination and spell speed in terms of min-maxing.

Yes this again, as long as people continue with the myth that DET is the absolute best and anything else is pointless I'll bring up the opposite side. (Interestingly enough I've actually gone a more balanced approach with how gear is structured in 2.4 between det, ss, and pie)

I use the HPS just as a general idea of how little determination brings, not that you should be constantly healing. This is also always addressed in these topics, and your side still seems to attack it despite constant healing not being anyone's point about SS. The more telling number is how little DET adds to a single cure I. 20 - 40, that's about it (A little more with newer patches). SS brings very little off the cool down as well, so both have very little if any real affect in the grand scheme of things.

With "proper planning" neither more healing output or faster healing matters. It can be timed exactly right that you get out what you need to have done. Why this gets used as an argument against SS and not DET I don't understand. Just trying to get across here over and over again that both stats do not matter if you know the fight and have everything planned. This goes again to the point that this is pure personal preference with no one side having all (or none as was stated before) of the arguments.

Idle time isn't a big deal, that's time you can be doing other things but doesn't really mean anything in what SS brings (for me personally) It brings that heal a liiiiiiiitle bit quicker to help unintended damage so that the next "planned" attack doesn't mess things up.

No one ever stated that Determination was the absolute best stat ever. Find a post that states this.

What has been stated, however, that Spell speed is not worth considering when it comes to min-maxing. Spell speed offers nothing at all healing wise as the only benefit of it can be nullified by simply pre-casting. Determination slightly tilts the HP recovery for every MP spend. Unlike spell speed, which is quite the opposite.

Aside from healing in general, there are also times where the healers have the freedom to off DPS or need to carry a bit of extra weight in favor for the other healer to off DPS. This too comes in play when it involves min-maxing. Determination would increase any dps damage you would do for every MP spend. Spell Speed would only strain the MP usage more. If you're carrying a bit of extra weight or the encounter is AoE healing heavy, spell speed won't help in this field either as it would only strain the mp usages more for less healing.

For argument sake: Both spell speed and determination has their hairy moments.
For spell speed: Heal comes in -just- in time to prevent someone from dying (as this seems to be the main reason to take spell speed)
For determination: Heal recovers -just- enough for someone to survive with 1-30 HP before the next hit (as this would seem to be the main reason to take determination)
However: In case of spell speed, your own ability can actually prevent that. While someone dying from taking 1300 damage while your heal before that hit only takes them to 1280 fully depends on your healing output.

The following line seems to be constantly ignored: balance is key!
A balance of determination and piety benefits a white mage greatly. And to an extend: Crit does as well
A balance of Critical hit rate, Determination benefits a scholar greatly. While a scholar isn't as reliant on Piety as White Mage, having some piety would make gameplay more comfortable for certain content.

Spell speed, however, has no place in this balance as it has no merit compared to the other stats.
Spell speed does not affect any HoT spells (Medica II, Regen, Whispering Dawn) or instant heal abilities (Lustrate, Benediction). For higher level content majority of the damage comes from DoTs (Bio, Bio II, Miasma, Shadow Flare, Aero, Aero II) or doesn't benefit from Spell speed at all (Fluid Aura, Energy Drain, Bane). Off-DPSing may not be a healer's main concern, it does make gameplay more comfortable in some situation by pushing phases or ease up the DPS check requirements for certain encounters and mechanics. In no encounter is there ever a case where both healers are required to fully focus on healing at all times either - Assuming both are somewhat competent.

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Originally Posted by Lorglath

Yes this again, as long as people continue with the myth that DET is the absolute best and anything else is pointless I'll bring up the opposite side. (Interestingly enough I've actually gone a more balanced approach with how gear is structured in 2.4 between det, ss, and pie)

I use the HPS just as a general idea of how little determination brings, not that you should be constantly healing. This is also always addressed in these topics, and your side still seems to attack it despite constant healing not being anyone's point about SS. The more telling number is how little DET adds to a single cure I. 20 - 40, that's about it (A little more with newer patches). SS brings very little off the cool down as well, so both have very little if any real affect in the grand scheme of things.

With "proper planning" neither more healing output or faster healing matters. It can be timed exactly right that you get out what you need to have done. Why this gets used as an argument against SS and not DET I don't understand. Just trying to get across here over and over again that both stats do not matter if you know the fight and have everything planned. This goes again to the point that this is pure personal preference with no one side having all (or none as was stated before) of the arguments.

Idle time isn't a big deal, that's time you can be doing other things but doesn't really mean anything in what SS brings (for me personally) It brings that heal a liiiiiiiitle bit quicker to help unintended damage so that the next "planned" attack doesn't mess things up.

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The reason why SS is pointless for a healer is because if you are pre-casting your cures (which you should be) then being able to have your cure land .01 sec faster is not needed. Being able to heal for more is always useful.

And no pre-casting doesn't waste the extra hp from DET. Not sure how you came up with that odd logic. If your casting so your cure goes off right as the damage does and the damage is 1000 hp and your Cure without DET does 900 hp but with DET it does 1100 then the extra DET has an advantage.

Now lets examine a SS build. You pre-cast so the cure goes off right as the damage hits the Damage is 1000 again your cure without SS is 900 HP and maybe lands .01 second after the damage, with the SS it lands right as the damage hits for 900 HP. That .01 second is only going to matter .000000000000000000000000000001% of the time.

Still not seeing a good argument in favor of focusing on spell speed; downplaying the benefit of other secondaries doesn't necessarily make the case for spell speed.

If a player wants to stack spell speed on a healer because they think they need it or they think that it feels better, let them. Is it possible to argue effectively that there is a game mechanics advantage to stacking SS at the expense of other secondaries? I really don't think so.

Realistically speaking, how often can you expect a few hundredths of a second to make the difference between life and death? If the answer is truthfully "more often than you might think," then there is a problem more serious than sub-optimal secondary allocation.

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Originally Posted by Yonko

The reason why SS is pointless for a healer is because if you are pre-casting your cures (which you should be) then being able to have your cure land .01 sec faster is not needed. Being able to heal for more is always useful.


And no pre-casting doesn't waste the extra hp from DET. Not sure how you came up with that odd logic. If your casting so your cure goes off right as the damage does and the damage is 1000 hp and your Cure without DET does 900 hp but with DET it does 1100 then the extra DET has an advantage.

Now lets examine a SS build. You pre-cast so the cure goes off right as the damage hits the Damage is 1000 again your cure without SS is 900 HP and maybe lands .01 second after the damage, with the SS it lands right as the damage hits for 900 HP. That .01 second is only going to matter .000000000000000000000000000001% of the time.

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If you know the fight and are pre-casting, most likely your heals will be enough with or without a DET bonus. The big misunderstanding here is that you think DET will increase a cure by 200 HP, not even close try 40-50. That 40-50 more HP is only going to matter .000000000000000000000000000001% of the time.

The same goes with SS, in no way is my argument based around pre-casting. My argument is more based around recovering from non-intended (avoidable) damage.

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Originally Posted by Lorglath

If you know the fight and are pre-casting, most likely your heals will be enough with or without a DET bonus. The big misunderstanding here is that you think DET will increase a cure by 200 HP, not even close try 40-50. That 40-50 more HP is only going to matter .000000000000000000000000000001% of the time.

The same goes with SS, in no way is my argument based around pre-casting. My argument is more based around recovering from non-intended (avoidable) damage.

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If healing for 30 more HP while precasting is going to "matter .000000000000000000000000000001% of the time.", the same arguments can be applied that spell speed is going to matter 0.0% of the time. Even if the benefit is small, it's still a benefit where spell speed has no benefit.
Recovering from unintended damage can be anticipated if you're aware of your surroundings: What is everyone doing? Where are they? Are they moving in time to avoid the damage? This doesn't require spell speed, just some awareness.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

If healing for 30 more HP while precasting is going to "matter .000000000000000000000000000001% of the time.", the same arguments can be applied that spell speed is going to matter 0.0% of the time. Even if the benefit is small, it's still a benefit where spell speed has no benefit.
Recovering from unintended damage can be anticipated if you're aware of your surroundings: What is everyone doing? Where are they? Are they moving in time to avoid the damage? This doesn't require spell speed, just some awareness.

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This is exactly my point and is why I copied the line from the previous post about SS mattering .000000000000000000000000000001% of the time. The arguments for and against SS and DET have about the same validity and impact in actual healing.


Yes being aware of things helps, but also sometimes that avoidable damage happens right before spike damage. In that case SS "might" help to get topped off before it comes. In the same case you might have enough time to cast a spell before the spike damage and DET "might" help get more health to survive it.

I honestly think we're not really that far apart on this issue, when you're dealing with end game raiding a WHM casts spells fast enough and for enough that secondary stats honestly don't come into things except in very minor cases. If you want to min-max then fine, DET works for you. Personally I think healing in this game is more than min-maxing, as to your awareness point. If it's more than min-maxing, I think things other than pure healing numbers enter into it.

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Originally Posted by Lorglath

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Obviously, healing is more than just numbers. But numbers are still involved: Know how much you are healing for. How much damage will X take from Y moment. How much healing can I put out for target X with spell Y. In any scenario, any increase on the numbers you use, be it healing or offDPSing, is a bonus. In said situation where there is "unexpected damage", I'd rely on +30 more HP recovered than on -0.05s casting time to keep them alive as the 30 extra HP "might" just keep them alive where the 0.05s speed increase "might" not.

Concerning your "might" situations, Determination will always outweigh Spell speed for the "might" scenario's:
Determination "might" just keep the tank alive enough, where Spell speed won't be able to squeeze in another heal in the same time frame if the tank "might" not just survive
Determination "might" be able to top off the tank just enough for big spike damages. Where Spell speed will not save the tank within the same time frame - it takes 25 seconds worth of casting to get 1 extra heal out if you manage to get a 0.25s re-cast difference out of it, which is practically a load of crap as you don't ever cast cures for 25 seconds straight.
Determination "might" just keep everyone alive for back-to-back AoE's with short timeframes in between. Where Spell speed cannot squeeze in another spell, even if it's "unexpected".
A turn 9 special scenario: Someone gets two meteor streams. The added determination -might- just save them from getting them killed. Where spell speed cannot squeeze in another single target cure. Although, I suppose if you pre-cast one Medica you "might" be able to throw out another Medica before the second stream lands. But this puts a gigantic dent in your MP management.

This comes back to the bottom-line:
Yes, secondary stats aren't very significant as the game is now. But it's a stat with minor merit against a stat with no merit.

But hey, I found a good use for spell speed: In case of 3 or more death scenario's and if it's not already considered a wipe. I suppose this also falls under the "unexpected" category.

I dont have any spell speed on my novus but I can time the heals perfectly, (also can use POM) so that tanks do not die. I personally like the fact that I only need one heal instead of 3....