Craftsmanship vs. Magic Craftsmanship

We've been playing for a year and still there's not much information about which recipes use craftsmanship and which use magic craftsmanship. Last Oct, a synthesis Ask the Devs post said

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Among recipes in the game, there are those for which the rate of progress and chance of success are increased by higher Craftsmanship, and those for which they are determined by Magic Craftsmanship.

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And there was a thread on YG that didn't really get anywhere before it died in February.

Does anyone else have insight or where else to point me for which recipes benefit from which skill?

Assumption I have read is that its divided between the crystals/shards the recipe needs:

Fire, Wind, Earth: Craftmanship
Lightning, Ice, Water: Magic Craftmanship

If the recipe has a mix of both types it will need a balance gear approach.
Not sure if this is the way it works, but it sounds like a viable theory imo.

My guess would be it depends on the class. IE alchemists would need more magical crafting than normal crafting.

But then I checked out a list of the most powerful tools in the game... seems like off-hand items are more likely to have more MC, but they are higher level too. So it could be primary hand items need more crafting while some offhand items need more MC. Now some professions like GLD have items which in general have more crafting, and some like armorer seem more balanced.

The theories on how to interpret the devs are many and varied.

I take it to mean that if an item is more likely to be used for magical purposes or in actions requiring magical traits down the line, it would require magic crafstmanship. Craftsmanship for "physical items".

So as a Goldsmith example:
Various gemstones (to use in scepters, rings etc) - Magic Craftsmanship
Various types of hora (Pug weapon) - Craftsmanship

My theory falls apart for items that could go either way, such as casting silver ingots, which could become axe heads or a thaumaturge's scepter.

I go for the more general theory - The craftsmanship requirements for every recipe is different and every recipe requires a certain amount of both physical and magic craftsmanship to be optimal. (There is no way to verify otherwise because all tools have both.)
-> This means that it is also possible for some recipes to fail more if you focus too much on one stat and neglect the other.

The ones that I know of:
Magical:
Dyed Cloths (Weaver)
Powders (Alchemist)

Physical:
Shards from Fish (Alchemist)

Crafters should typically have 2 sets of gear - One to maximize each craftsmanship.
I don't have space for a 3rd set on Control so I don't bother.

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Originally Posted by tymora

I go for the more general theory - The craftsmanship requirements for every recipe is different and every recipe requires a certain amount of both physical and magic craftsmanship to be optimal. (There is no way to verify otherwise because all tools have both.)
-> This means that it is also possible for some recipes to fail more if you focus too much on one stat and neglect the other.

The ones that I know of:
Magical:
Dyed Cloths (Weaver)
Powders (Alchemist)

Physical:
Shards from Fish (Alchemist)

Crafters should typically have 2 sets of gear - One to maximize each craftsmanship.
I don't have space for a 3rd set on Control so I don't bother.

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I don't really believe the shards from fish. I've ALWAYS maxed my magic craft while sharding fish, and never had problems.

Forgive me if this sounds naive....

but I always thought that Craftsmanship was for Main-Hand tool and Magic Craftsmanship was for Off-Hand tool.

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Originally Posted by AeraLucis

Forgive me if this sounds naive....

but I always thought that Craftsmanship was for Main-Hand tool and Magic Craftsmanship was for Off-Hand tool.

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No, that was a common misconception. It's based on the individual craft I believe.. But I'm tempted to go along with the poster above who associated certain elements with Magic, and others with Craftsmanship. I haven't crafted a lot of weapons, or other finished "sellable" items. With woodworking, I've found craftsmanship is very useful for just about everything. And with things like bows, the offhand vs main-hand is a huge difference!! Who knows..

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Originally Posted by KalaKenshu

I don't really believe the shards from fish. I've ALWAYS maxed my magic craft while sharding fish, and never had problems.

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You are already 42 so you won't be able to notice the effect. You are most likely over the "required" craftsmanship even if you focused on the magic.

It is very noticeable if you try the recipes when 9 to 10 ranks under. I see a jump in number of successful synths. I did a couple hundred Black Sole synths starting at 31 to come to this conclusion.

SE didn't make the requirements very high. By about 5 ranks under the recipe rank, you should have already met or exceeded the requirements if equipped properly.

welcome to SE gaming

look at our purdy game... now guess the rules

I know this is slightly off topic but i think they did crafting very well, my only issue is the guessing.

what is mg craft vs craft; what effects do the hour element, day element, moon phase, and moon polarity have on success, dur, hq rate?

I like the complexity, but i'd prefer they let us know the rules rather than leaving us to guess based on the stats we get from spreadsheets of gathered data... i played that game back in the days of zillart release for ffxi. I don't have the patience for it now

I have 2 gear sets, 1 for craftsmanship and 1 for magic craftsmanship, and it really isn't difficult to figure out what to use on each recipe. Just see how difficult the recipe is in one set through 1-2 synths. If you pile on the correct stat you'll see a LOT more successes and especially high progress (consistently above 15% and close to 20% on standard synths). On the other hand if you're focusing on the wrong stat you will notice the increased difficulty and a lot less returns on progress.

Many items in this game are tiered so if you figure out what stat to use on an item, theres a really good chance that the rest of the same type of item use the same stat. For example, all wands use Magic Craftsmanship, all lumber uses Craftsmanship.

Figuring out what tool is more logical in making a particular item seems to be a decent hint too, and stacking on Craftsmanship if it's the mainhand tool while using Magic Craftsmanship for offhand. There seem to be some exceptions though but it's at least a place to start.

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Originally Posted by AlphaLion

Assumption I have read is that its divided between the crystals/shards the recipe needs:

Fire, Wind, Earth: Craftmanship
Lightning, Ice, Water: Magic Craftmanship

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I really don't think so. Entire crafts are based mostly on one or two elements (BSM for example is primarily fire and wind), so your theory would mean that BSM is based on Craftsmanship, even though M. Craftsmanship gear is available for it. This doesn't make sense from a game design standpoint.

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Originally Posted by tymora

The ones that I know of:
Magical:
Dyed Cloths (Weaver)
Powders (Alchemist)

Physical:
Shards from Fish (Alchemist)

...I did a couple hundred Black Sole synths starting at 31 to come to this conclusion.

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Thanks for some concrete examples.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Many items in this game are tiered so if you figure out what stat to use on an item, theres a really good chance that the rest of the same type of item use the same stat. For example, all wands use Magic Craftsmanship, all lumber uses Craftsmanship.

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More concrete examples. Thanks. Also good insight about entire types of items using craft/m. craft.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Figuring out what tool is more logical in making a particular item seems to be a decent hint too...

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This seems very subjective. Is it really more logical to think that wands are better made with hammers than with saws? Maybe, but does SE think that we all should know this sort of "logic"?

Thanks, everyone, for trying to help me out on this topic.

If any of you are willing, it would probably be useful to a lot of people if we kept the thread alive and just post item types that we've tested/confirmed to be craftsmanship/m. craftsmanship.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

I have 2 gear sets, 1 for craftsmanship and 1 for magic craftsmanship, and it really isn't difficult to figure out what to use on each recipe. Just see how difficult the recipe is in one set through 1-2 synths. If you pile on the correct stat you'll see a LOT more successes and especially high progress (consistently above 15% and close to 20% on standard synths). On the other hand if you're focusing on the wrong stat you will notice the increased difficulty and a lot less returns on progress.

Many items in this game are tiered so if you figure out what stat to use on an item, theres a really good chance that the rest of the same type of item use the same stat. For example, all wands use Magic Craftsmanship, all lumber uses Craftsmanship.

Figuring out what tool is more logical in making a particular item seems to be a decent hint too, and stacking on Craftsmanship if it's the mainhand tool while using Magic Craftsmanship for offhand. There seem to be some exceptions though but it's at least a place to start.

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I like this POV except for the part about try it on this set of gear and if it's poor try the other. Only reason is, if you fail on one set and fail as well on the other, you haven't proved anything. Also, for casual gamers and not statisticians, you don't want to or have time to do all the data sets required for a conclussive theory. So having SE let us know SOMETHING not everything because exploring and trying is part of the fun, would be nice or at least like a quest or CS that helps guide you would be nice. Like the tutorial leves.

Also in regards to off and main hand, you're dead on. You won't use your hammer on a piece that really just needs to be refined would you? No, you'll use your off hand file. Just like ...OMG RL which has been in and out of this entire thread. ;)

good thread and good info this has been very helpful for starting players like myself =)

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Originally Posted by Geesus

...Also in regards to off and main hand, you're dead on. You won't use your hammer on a piece that really just needs to be refined would you? No, you'll use your off hand file. Just like ...OMG RL which has been in and out of this entire thread. ;)

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good point i noticed with gold smithing i get lot more sucs synth front using a grinding wheel to make marbled eye than fron the hammer and vise versa with rings and chokers. With mats such as nuggets and ingots the grinding wheel seems to be more useful than the hammer

just thought this screen shot was appropriate for this thread
YAY! Synthesis!

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Originally Posted by Darrkness

good point i noticed with gold smithing i get lot more sucs synth front using a grinding wheel to make marbled eye than fron the hammer and vise versa with rings and chokers. With mats such as nuggets and ingots the grinding wheel seems to be more useful than the hammer

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Precisely. I use my hammer for ingots just because idk, they're flat? O.o LOL But to each his own. I found the same issue when repairing gear. Why would you use a spinning wheel to fix an already made cloth item? In RL you wouldn't, you'd use a needle. And SOMETIMES, switching hands during high level leves helped me actually complete the quest when the main hand may have been failing. Now that also may have been my gear but idk.

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Originally Posted by Darrkness

just thought this screen shot was appropriate for this thread
YAY! Synthesis!

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HAHAHA! Love the fireworks in the background. Like there's a party for you completing the synth! xD

Weaving party at the weavers guild!
YAY synthesis part 2

Jet today i made 16 Iron Halber Heads.

First 4 synths:
Boosted Control with the R48 Vintage Smithy's Gloves, Vintage Coif and Boarskin Tool belt + and Dodore Doublet.

Synths barely made it to 80% when most of Dura was dead ocasionally with unstable elements (not blowing up tho)...

Next 4 synths:
Boosted MG. Craftsmanship + Apple Juice gear was Vintage Coatee, Silver Magnifiers, Boarskin Toolbelt and
Vintage Smithy's Gloves and Vintage Thighboots.

Synths went pretty bad aswell same as above mostly except for one that wasnt all that bad but still gave me a hard time.

Next tries i stayed with same gear set up cause sym\nths went really really smooth, could even do some bolds on them aswell and attempts didnt fail as much if no fails at all :)

Set was:
Dodore Doublet
Velveteen Shortgloves
Velveteen Half Apron
Vintage Thighboots.
Silver Magnifiers
Velveteen tights (used in all synths)

Result in stats was:
Craftsmanship 127
Control 54
Mg. Craftsmanship 91..

That is all the info i can tell.
Don't know what affected what just laying the facts.

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Originally Posted by Geesus

Precisely. I use my hammer for ingots just because idk, they're flat? O.o LOL But to each his own. I found the same issue when repairing gear. Why would you use a spinning wheel to fix an already made cloth item? In RL you wouldn't, you'd use a needle. And SOMETIMES, switching hands during high level leves helped me actually complete the quest when the main hand may have been failing. Now that also may have been my gear but idk.

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Well, there is more to which tool you use than that too. The tool you use on nuggets/ingots for example determines the type of HQ. For example, using the primary you will get extra nuggets/ingots if you HQ the synth. Using the secondary, you will get +1/+2/+3 versions instead when you HQ.

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Originally Posted by KalaKenshu

I don't really believe the shards from fish. I've ALWAYS maxed my magic craft while sharding fish, and never had problems.

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I screwed up on this. Yes, sharding fish is magical.

I think that each recipe should clearly state if it is magical or standard. If main hand / off hand influences this, it should be easy enough to list on the window that pops up after selecting main hand / off hand.

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Originally Posted by zerrith

I think that each recipe should clearly state if it is magical or standard. If main hand / off hand influences this, it should be easy enough to list on the window that pops up after selecting main hand / off hand.

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It is usually easy enough to see which type a recipe is, in 2 synths. Sometimes it may take more, but you should be reasonably confident by the 5th.
Do once with craftsmanship focus.
Do once with m. craftsmanship focus.

Compare the following values:
Min Quality Gained, Max Quality Gained
Min Durability Loss, Max Durability Loss
Min Progress Gained, Max Progress Gained (doesn't work well if you are way above recipe rank since max is capped at 20, use quality instead).

In general, if you use the correct craftsmanship, both the min. and the max. values will increase.

Other more subjective basis will be the number of "booms" and instability occurrences.

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Anyway, it is not too hard to determine which type, so whether this is displayed or not is not really of consequence.
I am more concerned with what is the magic number for each recipe to aim for.

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Originally Posted by tymora

Anyway, it is not too hard to determine which type, so whether this is displayed or not is not really of consequence.

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It is of consequence. I don't want to spend 5 synths testing for every 1 synth I really want to do. Some materials are very difficult to obtain... this is why a collaboration of our experiences would be useful.

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Originally Posted by tymora

I am more concerned with what is the magic number for each recipe to aim for.

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Hmm?

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Originally Posted by Amiricle

Well, there is more to which tool you use than that too. The tool you use on nuggets/ingots for example determines the type of HQ. For example, using the primary you will get extra nuggets/ingots if you HQ the synth. Using the secondary, you will get +1/+2/+3 versions instead when you HQ.

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Very true and I did miss that point so thank you Amiricle for the addition. :)

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It is of consequence. I don't want to spend 5 synths testing for every 1 synth I really want to do.

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The type of craftsmanship appears to be the same for each type of item. (i.e. All wires, all ingots...etc)
So you can always try it out of a dirt cheap version of the recipes. No one is asking you to try using things like Dodore leather.

I thought it was tied to the stat favored by the class's tool? Str, Vit and Dex are craftmanship and Int, Mnd and Pie are magic craftmanship.

Alchemist: (MH/OH) Int/Pie
Armorer: Vit/Str
Blacksmith: Str/Mnd
Carpenter: Vit/Dex
Culinarian: Mnd/Pie
Goldsmith: Dex/Int
Leatherworker: Vit/Int
Weaver: Dex/Mnd

I bet it's more complicated than that though. I bet there are a lot of interdependancies worked in there too. Just looking at how many different jobs can use the same training manual, lets us know the answer isn't simple or cut and dry. It's probably some percentage based factoring in everything including the crystals. Maybe some synths are 705/30% favoring magic and some maybe 90%/10% favoring craftsmanship.

Considering that they are going to be implementing an NPC who talks to you about recipes and then progressing to a navigatable menu showing known recipies, could the need for physical or magical craftsmanship be included in the information said NPC provides?