The connection between the Echo and the Asceans

Okay so right we know that the Ascians have knowledge of the Echo, enough to trigger it in 2 cases (one directly and another indirectly through a Sahagin priest). I want to discuss the connection between the Asceans and the Echo

Also note that Since we got the vision, of Zodiark, Hydealyn has gone silent. I don;t thin this is a coincidence. In fact I think the two might have something to do with the Asceans knowledge of the Echo

Huh… I didn't even think about Hydealyn going silent. That actually kinda gives me chills a little.

As Annonymoose and I discussed in a past thread which I'm still trying to find a link for, it seems the reason Hydaelyn has 'gone silent' is that She probably feels that we can basically be left now to manage on our own without Her having to hold our hand every few steps, as the 2.0 story was pretty much the

Mothercrystal carefully preparing us to become a Warrior of Light, to face down the Ascians who were the real power behind Gaius's throne and thus foil their plan to rebirth Zodiark - giving us the tools and the knowledge to do so (ala, the Echo).

With Gaius defeated, Lahabrea's hold on Thancred broken and the Garlean advance into Eorzea effectively ended, if not for good, we've attained the necessary level of power needed, and thus she gives her 'goodbye and goodluck' speech in the ending, leaving the future of Eorzea solely in our hands.

She's still there, but like a mother whose children have grown up and left home, She trusts in us to make the right decisions on Her behalf, without Her taking any active role in our Path.

As for the vision of the

'dark Mothercrystal' seen in the ending, the 2.3 story pretty much shows that Crystal is not Zodiark. Zodiark is shown to be an actual physical god, vaguely in the same shape as his FFXII namesake, in stasis and not a crystal, so what exactly that 'evil Hydaelyn' vision was of is anyone's guess. Considering the Echo cannot actually view the future but only past events from a person's memories, suggests that it might have been a glimpse of things before the First Umbral Era. Which then raises the question, 'whose memories did that come from then'?

Damnit, where's my darksteel foil hat again?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

...Damnit, where's my darksteel foil hat again?

---

I see, but that still doesn't explain the relationship between the Asceans, Zodiark and the echo. Though I have a feeling the memory question might hold at least part of the answer

Actually if you look at the fight with Ultima Weapon, then Lahabrea, Hydaelyn is actively aiding you by pulling out primals and buffing you beyond belief to protect you. It's rather clearly stated that she used up a lot of her strength and she was weakened from what I remember. Obviously we have not gone up against a threat since that she has needed to give an active hand to help...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

As Annonymoose and I discussed in a past thread which I'm still trying to find a link for, it seems the reason Hydaelyn has 'gone silent' is that She probably feels that we can basically be left now to manage on our own without Her having to hold our hand every few steps, as the 2.0 story was pretty much the [HB]Mothercrystal carefully preparing us to become a Warrior of Light, to face down the Ascians who were the real power behind Gaius's throne and thus foil their plan to rebirth Zodiark - giving us the tools and the knowledge to do so (ala, the Echo).

---

That's all based on assumption though.

The battle with Ultima Weapon sees Hydaelyn directly intervene in a way that we'd never seen before. First we cannot even scratch Ultima Weapon so she gives us the strength to do so, then she extracts each of the primals from the Weapon in order to weaken it for us, and THEN she shields us from a ground zero Ultima detonation. Immediately following this even Lahabrea notes that she no longer has the power to intervene any further.

Based on all the events we see up to that point it's very possible that the dark crystal we see is Hydaelyn drained of aether, which is possibly what Lahabrea was trying to accomplish all along. Remember that the Echo allows us to see the past AND to see the aetherial realm.

In 2.3 Minfillia even mentions that Hydaelyn has been strangely silent and directly implies that something is seriously wrong. That would not be written into the narrative if it were not the case. It is simply bad story telling to foreshadow events that will never take place. I'm quite sure that Hydaelyn is weakened in some way.

As for the statue in the Ascian 'world', we have no idea at all what that is yet. It might just be a statue.

With regards to the OP: The implication so far is that the Sahagin's 'ascendance' was an advanced form of the Echo which was not at all subtly similar to the Ascians' own incorporeal form. Given Elidibus' teases that we do not fully comprehend what the Echo actually is yet, and that we apparently might see eye to eye if we did understand, I don't think it would be too far fetched to say that the Ascians themselves are Echo users.

Where they got the Echo and how they are able to give it to others remains unexplained though.

Maybe so, but I disagree that Hydaelyn was so drained shielding the player from Ultima that She 'no longer can assist the adventurer beyond that point' - She's clearly seen doing just that, She pulls both the adventuer and Lahabrea into her realm where the player reprises the very first scene seen in the game (where they use the Crystals of Light to form the 'Blade of Light'), thus driving out Lahabrea from Thancred, then summons the players allies (Cid, Alphinaud, Minfilia et al) to go all Captain Planet on Lahabrea to resoundingly defeat him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Maybe so, but I disagree that Hydaelyn was so drained shielding the player from Ultima that She 'no longer can assist the adventurer beyond that point' - She's clearly seen doing just that, She pulls both the adventuer and Lahabrea into her realm where the player reprises the very first scene seen in the game (where they use the Crystals of Light to form the 'Blade of Light'), thus driving out Lahabrea from Thancred, then summons the players allies (Cid, Alphinaud, Minfilia et al) to go all Captain Planet on Lahabrea to resoundingly defeat him.

---

Maybe she drained herself to such a weakened state that made her vulnerable to attack from another Entity, maybe even Zodiark. The Asceans seem to always be a step ahead of us at any given moment. Could it be then that Ultima Weapon wasn't the end of their master plan and they knew that Hydaelyn would use the better half of her powers in order to assist us in the defeat of the Ultima weapon? If this were the case then they meant for Hydaelyn to be in a weakened state so that Zodiark could then corrupt her, possibly siphoning energy from her in order to make his grand entrance onto the playing field. The reason that she has "gone silent" wouldn't be that she is too weak to communicate with us, but that she is currently under attack.

As for the Echo's vision we received: It might be a vision of the future. While it is true we have only seen visions from the past so far, it has been made clear that we do not fully understand the Echo at this point. Perhaps our use of the Echo as expanded now that we have gained experience in it's use, or maybe even Hydaelyn buffing us has kickstarted expanded use of the Echo.

Well, Hydaelyn does assist us in first weakening Ultima Weapon so we can actually scratch the damn thing and then works on pulling each primal out one by one. She used all of her power to shield us from Ultima (imagine if BLM's had that spell), and was pretty weak afterwards.

When Lahabrea says: "Van Belsar, your enemy's shield is broken. The rest I leave to you."
Skip over that next line: "Come Adventurer, let's see who is mightier." This was a fight of pure strength against a Machination, but Lahabrea still was working behind the scenes.

Now during our fight with Lahabrea (needs to be harder) we see Hydalyn assisting us once again, but I think it was only once and whatever power she had left drag both Lahabrea and ourselves into the realm and that was just an epic scene. So, my guess is indeed the Mother Crystal is drained of strength and I think 3.0's story will see us trying to fight off Zodiark based on all lore until now.

Maybe there needs to be some form of balance of power between Hydaelyn and Zodiark, Equality to maintain the equilibrium of Light and Dark. But with Hydaelyn being weakened due to her direct intervention during the Ultima battle, it allowed Zodiarks power to increase thus throwing the scales of balance even more out of alignment.

As a numerical example of the point I'm making. Say both Hydaelyn and Zodiark are at 100 power each. Balance is maintained. But Hydaelyns power dropped to 50. In that case Zodiarks power will increase to 150 due to that "energy" not being able to disappear. Science 101, energy cannot be destroyed.

The fact that the ascended Sahagin was linked to the incorporeal Ascian form makes me wonder they're setting it up for the Ascians to be former Warriors of Light.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The fact that the ascended Sahagin was linked to the incorporeal Ascian form makes me wonder they're setting it up for the Ascians to be former Warriors of Light.

---

Several people noticed that the Ascians we've seen under the robes resemble former FF protagonists. I've always theorized that maybe they're Dark World versions of the other heroes.

I had been meaning to rewatch certain parts of 1.0's Ul'dah storyline and ended up doing just that while fishing up some Silver Sovereigns this evening. During my binge, I found several interesting tidbits which I assume are still canon.

1. The Path of the Twelve in 1.0 had several Walkers who had found out the purpose of the Echo, but were negligent to speak afterwards due to "fear or shame."
2. As we have seen ourselves, those with the gift of the Echo may Participate in one's memories and even act in them, but they cannot change the future. What has happened is written in stone, aside from strange occurrences of the people in the Echo's memory acknowledging the Participant's existence. Chalk that up to 1.0 shenanigans making things needlessly more difficult.
3. In specific, members of the Path of Twelve have been known to see two different events before being inducted into the organization. The first is the final moments of Niellefresne, who is slain by a mysterious figure who may or may not be Ascian. the second event is a meteor shower, which may or may not have been a warning of the Calamity and Dalamud's Descent.

Additional information I have found about the Ascians is that the primary members are named after the Scions of Light of Ivalice Lore, with Elidibus being the mage who summons Zodiark in Final Fantasy Tactics. In the final Summoner quest, an Ascian assists the summoner Tristan in summoning an egi of Belias, one of the Scions of Dark in Ivalice lore. I imagine finding exactly how this information is linked to Final Fantasy XIV as a whole could be pretty important to unraveling the mystery.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/E...Fantasy_XII%29
Scroll down this page to see the names of the Scions in FFXII. Lahabrea is the opposite of Mateus, who was based on Emperor Mateus of Final Fantasy II.

Dunno if anyone notice this yet, But that statue of Zordiark we saw on the cutesenes it looks exacly like Necron form FF9, look for it if you dont believe me xd

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapphic

Maybe there needs to be some form of balance of power between Hydaelyn and Zodiark, Equality to maintain the equilibrium of Light and Dark. But with Hydaelyn being weakened due to her direct intervention during the Ultima battle, it allowed Zodiarks power to increase thus throwing the scales of balance even more out of alignment.

---

Quoting ones self is wierd, I know, but bare with me XD

With so much fanservice from final fantasy 3 I feel they have also taken the basic story of the balance between light and dark, dark becoming stronger leads to the appearance of warriors of light, whereas in FF3 lore, when light was dominant it led to the appearance of the warriors of dark.

I got around to buying FF3 on Steam and presently playing through it and seeing a lot of similarities in the storyline which, kinda, strengthens my theory on equilibrium needing to be maintained between light and dark.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sholah

Several people noticed that the Ascians we've seen under the robes resemble former FF protagonists. I've always theorized that maybe they're Dark World versions of the other heroes.

---

I'll have to look this up, that would be a neat little easter egg/twist. :-)
Personally, I've always thought the Ascians to be former Allagan. They became so advanced to the point where there was nothing else left to do. I would think the next step would be ascension and somewhere along the way they became corrupt.

Reason why Hydaelyn is silent because "the Mother Creator" didn't want us to find out of her "alter ego" aka "the Father Destroyer/ purple Hydaelyn", and Zodiarc is simply a catalyst to put the Mother into sleep and awaken the Father. Hence why Echo is inherited to our toon as the Mother's herald and the Ascians as the Father's herald.

The real question is, is Hydaelyn willing to echo memories from "Anti-Ascians" scheming and finally succeeding in sleeping the Father and awaken the Mother?

I still find it hard to believe that the "mother crystal" was drained simply by helping us. Is Ultima really that mighty - the actual fight doesn't really represent his strength well if that's the case....

I'm still not sure what the purple crystal is... Might be zodiark (the statue in 2.3 might just be a symbol of worship/a representation of zodiark). Or it might be a corrupted Hydaelyn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HReincarnate

Is Ultima really that mighty - the actual fight doesn't really represent his strength well if that's the case....

---

Ultima Weapon is supposed to be, lore-wise, very powerful. Ultima (spell) is supposed to be, lore-wise, extremely powerful. It's like saying that a gun is dangerous, but the weapon itself isn't actually deadly - it's the bullet that really hurts. Same as here, Weapon is just a catalyst (as a "primal-absorber") for the spell. Consider what it did to Praetorium, outside of the bubble in which we are fighting Ultima Weapon/Lahabrea. Besides, if the last "DPS check" fails it's still a wipe, whether you are ilvl40 or 110. Now, gameplay-wise...yeah, not so much. However, considering it's main scenario from 2.0 and the last barrier between pre-49 and real endgame, making it too difficult wouldn't have been a smart move.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HReincarnate

I still find it hard to believe that the "mother crystal" was drained simply by helping us. Is Ultima really that mighty - the actual fight doesn't really represent his strength well if that's the case....

I'm still not sure what the purple crystal is... Might be zodiark (the statue in 2.3 might just be a symbol of worship/a representation of zodiark). Or it might be a corrupted Hydaelyn.

---

I think that and combined with Bahamuts release + all the other primals have weakened her. I am sure the Garlean's use of Ceruleum (refined aether) to fuel their Magitek doesn't help either

One thing that's interesting about this cutscene, this line especially:

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/...43&oe=54BEC4CE

Now, "the gifted"...remember the MSQ from 2.1 of a similar (or maybe the same) name? I'm sure he's talking about the PC (you) here. So the Ascians are doing something to make us stronger, and I don't think this is just through "normal" combat. Perhaps we, unknowingly, gain a great deal of strength/power with each Primal we kill? The others were discussing the 5 we've killed before Elidibus enters...and the next piece of dialog is Lahabrea saying that even he is doing everything he can to accomplish this goal (which at the same time is confusing since he spent a very important part of the 2.0 story trying to kill us...) and we know he's been greatly involved in at least teaching how to summon Primals...

Of course, the question is, why is it we need to be made stronger by the Ascians' hands? Are we going to, as of right now unknowingly, bring about the rebirth of Zodiark? And...what is this *final* key and what/where are the rest of them?


I feel Shiva is going to answer a lot of questions for us as she's dying (and hopefully won't get cut short like a certain someone in SCoB). We'll find out soon enough...

It might not be that the Ascians are making us stronger, but that they are pushing the beat tribes to summon their primals with more power, hence the HM and EX versions. We are getting stronger as a result, we HAVE to get stronger to face the power of the primals. What does this have to do with anything? The Primals being summond disrupts the flow of aether, which is basically the lifestream of Hydaelyn (The World). The more crystals used to summon the Primals the stronger they are and the larger the effect the summoning has on the aether, which may be what is weakeneing Hydaelyn (The Mothercrystal) allowing her to be corrupted. What Lahabrea might have meant when he said he is doing everything he can is keeping the beast tribes focused on their tasks and perhaps teaching them how to summon stronger versions of their Primals.

You know what? This question has bothered me as well... as a matter of fact, it got to a point that after finishing the original 2.0 storyline, I yet again started wondering if (by some weird happenstance) Gaius was actually our Hyur Warrior of Light gone back in time by 30 years to become a Garlean.

Perhaps he realized that the war with the "darkness" couldnt be won and in frustration, he sends himself back in time to join the young Garlean Empire. After rising significantly within the ranks, the Ascians approached him for his abilities and gave him sone of this "gift" you are referring to. This will then explain how they became allies, at least to a degree. Spiffy, innit?

But never mind me... this is just crazy talk.