Hair and Glamour Restrictions

Didn't want to make two separate threads since the hair thing is simple:

http://s7.postimg.org/vwdeqz67v/ffxi...014_184822.png

What!? I know things like this aren't top priority to "fix" but it sucks I really liked the hair style but it does that with alot of gear :(

As for glamours... why the restrictions on gear?? Makes no sense... can I not glamour my alchemist robe to my BLM because I will confuse people?? Sorry if this has already been brought up but... first MMO I've played with such a strict restriction on glamours.

Clipping, as annoying as it is, is an issue with any mmo that I've ever played. as for the glamour thing, I agree it's restrictive, but take a look at WoW's Transmogrification system, which is essentially the same;

Can only transmog something you can equip
Can only transmog green or higher quality gear (Would be like only being able to glamour pink or higher here)
Can only transmog plate to plate, cloth to cloth, etc.
Items with no classifcation cannot be transmogged at all
Items with white or gray cannot be transmogged at all under any circumstance (Even though they have some of the nicest, simplest designs.
Legendary quality items cannot be transmogged at all under any circumstance

I think part of the reason you can't glamour class-specific gear is to avoid having people play a "shell game" in PVP.
"But you can tell what someone's class is when they do X!" Except people prioritize via vision first, so even LOOKING like a low priority target when you're a high priority target gives you an advantage.

Other than that, it's also because some armor pieces were designed to work with specific other armor pieces. For example, Flanchards weren't meant to be used with cowled robes. If you think the current amount of clipping is bad...yeesh

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Originally Posted by kyuven

I think part of the reason you can't glamour class-specific gear is to avoid having people play a "shell game" in PVP.
"But you can tell what someone's class is when they do X!" Except people prioritize via vision first, so even LOOKING like a low priority target when you're a high priority target gives you an advantage.

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This doesn't apply to this game as the job's name replaces the character's name.

This is more about people having sticks up their butts.

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Originally Posted by Riviere

This doesn't apply to this game as the job's name replaces the character's name.

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Again, that falls into "but you can tell what someone's class is when you do X!" Your character's model is typically more visually striking than your name plate. In addition, the draw distance on character models is longer than the draw distance on nameplates. To see what i mean just go to any S rank hunt that's as big as a house and see how long it is til you can see its nameplate. (or target it)

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Again, that falls into "but you can tell what someone's class is when you do X!" Your character's model is typically more visually striking than your name plate. In addition, the draw distance on character models is longer than the draw distance on nameplates. To see what i mean just go to any S rank hunt that's as big as a house and see how long it is til you can see its nameplate. (or target it)

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We already can hide our class with the current system, so this doesn't apply either.

Each and every developer has a different way of approaching hair and it's problems, FFXIV ARR went for a low-performance, easy to design/implement and adjust method, albeit at the risk of clipping.




Almost ALL of the hairstyles that came out in 2.0 were short (for a good reason), it was only after large players requests that they dabbled a bit further.

Hair Clipping has some possible solutions. But from a developers point of view, it's very very difficult to avoid clipping, especially when you're encountering numerous gear types/shapes and possibilities. Long hair in a game like this using skinned weights as opposed to independent physical hair simulations, clipping IS going to occur, unless countermeasures are taken such as;


The easiest one being mesh deformation, where the hair simply takes into account the surrounding topology and whether it's more appropriate for the hair to sit over or "tucked into" the piece of gear. There's currently a system already in place (pending they carried it over from 1.0) that was developed to accomodate different gear types.

Simply put, if you have a pair of long trousers, and the character wore a pair of boots, the topology of the trousers would "tuck" neatly into the boots automatically, saving a metric ton of time and effort on the developers part, leaving room for creative freedom to experiment with all sorts of gear shapes and sizes.




The reason I'm explaining this is because the same thing could be used on hair, but that being said it would have it's own share of issues.

As all of the hair is rigged to the Head>Neck>Torso/Shoulders (just like a piece of clothing is), this isn't a particularly easy task without causing the topology to bend, stretch and distort.



If the hair was an independent physical simulation then the problem would be solved, but having 20-100 characters+ on screen at once with independent physical hair would be a nightmare to optimise. (With the PS3 currently it's just not worth the implementation time/effort).



"What do you mean rigged hair?"

Basicly, 3D animation relies on the animator to 'assign' what areas of the model are assigned to what 'bone' so, obviously you want the 3D faces for the head to be different from the 3D faces for the neck when you're animating.

Essentially you 'paint' what areas you want to be manipulated by each bone (fading the colours into one another for a smooth realistic body-type frame).
As shown below, the "painted" areas are where the skeleton will know to manipulate the 3D model.

https://fromgray.files.wordpress.com...5/skinning.jpg


Hair (for the most part in games) follows this rule also, where certain segments of the hair will be weighted to the head, neck, back or any other joints that are assigned for the animation skeleton.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-IjYB6Zmo3W...HairRigSim.jpg

"Why does that matter again?"

Basicly, the hair is stuck in one position, it may animate/move a little bit giving the impression that it's "free flowing" but it's still rigged to the body, an independnt physical simulation would not have this issue.

But as you can see that would have it's own problems;

http://media.tumblr.com/1ae103569794...6lv1qalhg6.gif





As for the Glamour Restrictions, that's just obvious.

As liberal as FFXIV has become in terms of gear and the overall world/design composition, it's nice to have some integrity that tanks will look like tanks for the most part and casters like casters.

It's a silly restriction by this point, but from the developers point of view I can see why they'd want to keep it restricted this way.

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Originally Posted by Riviere

We already can hide our class with the current system, so this doesn't apply either.

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Exactly. But what I'm talking about goes beyond hiding your class by wearing something anyone can wear, and going straight into disguising yourself as another class. With the right gear equipped, a WHM with PLD glamours could pass as one.
On its own it isn't a big deal, but shell game tactics will take advantage of it, by having the tank decked out in BLM gear, the healer in brd gear, and the dps in tank gear, it messes with the opposition's initial tactics.
But more realistically, it probably has a lot to do with animation shortcuts and clipping issues.

To solve the hair clipping issues, they would have to do what TERA does and create an alternate hairstyle to all the long ones like this:

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/6716/hairstyless.png

But I don't think they're going to do it.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Exactly. But what I'm talking about goes beyond hiding your class by wearing something anyone can wear, and going straight into disguising yourself as another class. With the right gear equipped, a WHM with PLD glamours could pass as one.
On its own it isn't a big deal, but shell game tactics will take advantage of it, by having the tank decked out in BLM gear, the healer in brd gear, and the dps in tank gear, it messes with the opposition's initial tactics.
But more realistically, it probably has a lot to do with animation shortcuts and clipping issues.

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You mean like what we can already do with the current system?

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...psf990520a.jpg

It's already possible to look like other classes or just have everyone glamour into swimsuits.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

snip.

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Well glamours are already disabled in Frontlines..... So... doesn't really apply does it? Unless you can wear glamours in regular pvp, I've never been in there just done frontlines so I'm not sure. but a simple fix would be to just disable glamours in ALL pvp not just frontlines if thats the case.

And as for the hair yea I guess you're right, clipping is a problem in all MMOs, so my only gripe left is the glamour restrictions :D
If they disable it in all PVP there would be no point to it being so restricted right?

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Originally Posted by Wylde

Snip

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Glamours are allowed in PvP now.

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Originally Posted by Riviere

Glamours are allowed in PvP now.

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Oh x,x havent been inside in a while... dammit >.o i'll gladly trade in PVP glamour availability for no restrictions lol

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Originally Posted by Riviere

You mean like what we can already do with the current system?

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...psf990520a.jpg

It's already possible to look like other classes or just have everyone glamour into swimsuits.

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Again, that's gear ANYONE can use. I'm talking the class specific gear, such as the very flamboyant and easy to spot BRD gear, or the distinctive WHM robes, or the ugly as sin Scylla gear.
And yes everyone CAN dress up in swimsuits or other identical gear, but that triggers a different reaction than dressing as a different class. If you're wearing "generic caster gear" they'll check your class first. If you're wearing something normally exclusive to a specific class, they're going to make a snap assumption.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Again, that's gear ANYONE can use. I'm talking the class specific gear, such as the very flamboyant and easy to spot BRD gear, or the distinctive WHM robes, or the ugly as sin Scylla gear.
And yes everyone CAN dress up in swimsuits or other identical gear, but that triggers a different reaction than dressing as a different class. If you're wearing "generic caster gear" they'll check your class first. If you're wearing something normally exclusive to a specific class, they're going to make a snap assumption.

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Just no, you lost the argument. Enough already. Restriction on glamour is silly agreed. Hair issue is not too big of a concern in all honesty but would be nice to fix.

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Originally Posted by LTEvil

Just no, you lost the argument. Enough already. Restriction on glamour is silly agreed. Hair issue is not too big of a concern in all honesty but would be nice to fix.

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Except he didn't. His point is correct, people WILL make those assumptions.

And no, it's not silly in the slightest. Even early on Yoshi talked about it, and WHY we have the restriction.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Except he didn't. And no, it's not silly in the slightest. Even early on Yoshi talked about it, and WHY we have the restriction.

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It's silly. Case and point. Your reasoning is flawed. Only time it would matter is in PvP and guess what, it doesn't matter. Class is displayed due to nameplate well before you are in range.

I'm saying remove glamours from PVP ANNNNDDD remove restrictions. So yea thats the point of the thread :P and yea you can't trick anyone in PVP even if you were a BLM in WHM robe or vise versa. For one it says your job. Two the minute you pull out your weapon someone would have to be stupid to not know your job. What would anyone accomplish hiding their job ? You'd have to put up your weapon too it'd be pointless.

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Originally Posted by LTEvil

It's silly. Case and point. Your reasoning is flawed. Only time it would matter is in PvP and guess what, it doesn't matter. Class is displayed due to nameplate well before you are in range.

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Did you just contradict yourself? Also, the last part is wrong. You can see the character model long before you can see the name plate... oh, but this was said already.

So, now, how about proving why it's silly. YOU and OTHERS don't like it, we get that. Doesn't make it silly. There's a very good reason for it. And, again, SE even talked about this before ARR's launch.

Basically you've given everyone a reason to NOT listen to you at this point. When two entities have differing views or opinions and make an argument over them, you DON'T dismiss the opposing view by effectively saying "you're wrong, i'm right" This is what you do when you call it silly. You may not agree, some may agree with you, some may not. That doesn't make your view the only correct one, and the opposition "silly".

So, again, you might disagree, but there are very valid opinions and reasons why it is. Would you be ok with me calling your view "stupid" because I think, as much as possible, classes/jobs should wear relevant looking gear? No, because your opinion IS valid. It's just NOT the only one.

Soldiery caster robe + long hair = sad disaster...not to mention the erected tail female miqotes have with it lool

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Exactly. But what I'm talking about goes beyond hiding your class by wearing something anyone can wear, and going straight into disguising yourself as another class. With the right gear equipped, a WHM with PLD glamours could pass as one.
On its own it isn't a big deal, but shell game tactics will take advantage of it, by having the tank decked out in BLM gear, the healer in brd gear, and the dps in tank gear, it messes with the opposition's initial tactics.
But more realistically, it probably has a lot to do with animation shortcuts and clipping issues.

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I cant take this seriously as in pvp it states the class name above the player, and it does so far before you come in range to do anything. So IMO, this excuse is invalid.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Again, that's gear ANYONE can use. I'm talking the class specific gear, such as the very flamboyant and easy to spot BRD gear, or the distinctive WHM robes, or the ugly as sin Scylla gear.
And yes everyone CAN dress up in swimsuits or other identical gear, but that triggers a different reaction than dressing as a different class. If you're wearing "generic caster gear" they'll check your class first. If you're wearing something normally exclusive to a specific class, they're going to make a snap assumption.

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IDK what game you've been playing but you seem very ill experienced to frontlines and wolves den considering what you are saying. These "shell tactics" you are talking about mean absolutely nothing. No really, nothing. Simply put, you can see the class of the characters long before you are in range to actually use a skill, so what you are saying is a moot point.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Did you just contradict yourself? Also, the last part is wrong. You can see the character model long before you can see the name plate... oh, but this was said already.

So, now, how about proving why it's silly. YOU and OTHERS don't like it, we get that. Doesn't make it silly. There's a very good reason for it. And, again, SE even talked about this before ARR's launch.

Basically you've given everyone a reason to NOT listen to you at this point. When two entities have differing views or opinions and make an argument over them, you DON'T dismiss the opposing view by effectively saying "you're wrong, i'm right" This is what you do when you call it silly. You may not agree, some may agree with you, some may not. That doesn't make your view the only correct one, and the opposition "silly".

So, again, you might disagree, but there are very valid opinions and reasons why it is. Would you be ok with me calling your view "stupid" because I think, as much as possible, classes/jobs should wear relevant looking gear? No, because your opinion IS valid. It's just NOT the only one.

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Point being is you see the name plate long before you are in range to do anything. Sure, you can see the character model first HOWEVER, you see the name plate directly after that and have PLENTY OF TIME to adjust your "shellolol tactics". (why people just don't say strat, strategy, group strat is beyond me. Does "shell tactics" sound cooler??)

What other valid opinion is there to not removing the restrictions on glamour? Because at this point, there really isn't any reason to have all these restrictions.

I've commented on similar threads before. I don't feel it's right that melee and tanks can wear caster's gear while mage's can't wear melee or tank gear. At least get rid of that restriction. AF gear (as much as I'd LOVE to wear the WVR and ALC coats all the time) should not be able to be worn by any class but the one it's made for, it's too iconic for each class. Other than those, everything should be fair game.

I just want more beard options personnelly :(

I agree about the clipping. It's really annoying when you get a new piece of gear only to find out there is horrific clipping with 50% of the hairstyles available. I got a Gloam tabard recently which basically means all the long hair options are out of the window. I'm guessing this would be a nightmare to fix though, so I guess I can just work around it.

As for glamour restrictions, I agree that AF gear should be off limits, but there should be much more freedom. As a Monk I can wear a lot of gathering gear that looks similar to mage stuff, so they might as well let me wear proper mage gear anyway.

I can concede af if they removed other class restrictions but I really feel the justifications for it are silly. If we can call dress up as chocos reindeer or snowmen on any job it shouldn't matter. I understand some people are lazy and don't like reading though. But the class restriction does extremely limited being able to set a solid look for your character. For female characters a large portion of the skirts that look good are af or mage only.

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Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

What other valid opinion is there to not removing the restrictions on glamour? Because at this point, there really isn't any reason to have all these restrictions.

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As i've said before, in another thread iirc, SE doesn't want people from one job looking like another for the most part. They talked about it before ARR even went into Alpha too. There are exceptions of course, like dated gear and some other things. But for the most part, they don't want "mages in plate" and other such things.

You can say it's not valid, but it most certainly is.

I would like to see this quote before accepting it as canonical fact. Shen's Mail in XI and several of the main scenario NPC s beg to differ with this stance.