PLEASE fix the credit system for hunts!

Just killed the S in Southern Thanalan. Full party, at the beginning of the pull. 30 seals. Why did I not get full credit, when I was there at the very start, in a full party? You know what? Just throw the entire credit system out the window. Get rid of it. When you have a broken system that only lets 20 (or 40, I forget the number) DoTs on at once, and mobs that pop in and out, and people resetting (either on accident or purpose), people are unfairly losing out on credit, so just get rid of the entire system altogether.

And then you'd have people hitting the mark once, leaving, having fewer people to actually kill the thing, possibly leading to a wipe and causing nobody to get credit. No, partial credit needs to stay, and your party needs to work harder if you wanna get full credit. The 60 DoT limit, as well as the entire hunt system, wasn't meant for 300 people to come and blast one mob.

People need to stop calling things broken just because it didn't work out for them.

Not everyone is agreeing with OP.

Thread must be broken.

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Originally Posted by JustPlainLucas

Just killed the S in Southern Thanalan. Full party, at the beginning of the pull. 30 seals. Why did I not get full credit, when I was there at the very start, in a full party? You know what? Just throw the entire credit system out the window. Get rid of it. When you have a broken system that only lets 20 (or 40, I forget the number) DoTs on at once, and mobs that pop in and out, and people resetting (either on accident or purpose), people are unfairly losing out on credit, so just get rid of the entire system altogether.

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60 debuffs. Not that that's really enough, but at least get your numbers right if you're gonna complain.

Also, if you cared about credit, you'd be in a party full of healers and tanks, who don't care about the debuff limit.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

60 debuffs. Not that that's really enough, but at least get your numbers right if you're gonna complain.

Also, if you cared about credit, you'd be in a party full of healers and tanks, who don't care about the debuff limit.

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This only suggests the system is even more broken that the best way to get full credit is to not bother trying to deal damage to the enemy.

More tanks and WHM, less DPS and SCH

If you're party is mostly DPS, esp ACN heavy (SCH and/or SMN), you will always get less credit on an S (even some A's).

Credit is aggro-based, so start getting people together who can generate tons (like, tanks and WHM...)

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Originally Posted by Nutz

This only suggests the system is even more broken that the best way to get full credit is to not bother trying to deal damage to the enemy.

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Except that's only "true" for a WHM, and even then the way S-ranks work its not even really (so much raid AoE damage on them, so spamming Med2 keeps most of the party up). Tanks should be in STR gear and in tank stance, trying their best to rip hate off the MT (in other words...they're doing a good amount of damage on their own. I know I can crit Butcher's Block for over 1300 hunting, and Inner Beast about the same. My Steel Cyclone can crit for over 1K too. Oh, and I'm normally MT too...)

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Originally Posted by Nutz

This only suggests the system is even more broken that the best way to get full credit is to not bother trying to deal damage to the enemy.

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It's only in keeping with credit mechanics that have been in place since launch, but sure. . .

Besides, even on healer you still have to damage it, or you aren't getting any credit.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

It's only in keeping with credit mechanics that have been in place since launch, but sure. . .

Besides, even on healer you still have to damage it, or you aren't getting any credit.

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That's true, and it's not as though I expect them to rewrite the mechanics to be 'smart', but it is a bit funny that using something like quelling strikes could only possibly hurt you with the current system, not that it should be necessary to use. The 'must deal damage or get no credit' thing is a bit odd as well for healers.

In any case I was only pointing out that the credit system is simplistic and doesn't really encourage people to fight the enemy in a serious manner, but rather to maximize threat generation (which from a gameplay standpoint only makes sense when attempting to tank) regardless of how it's done.

Hunt credit is badly designed, but I agree that whm is the best solution. By doing no damage, you also give other people time to build up aggro for full credit.

Make sure Medica 2 is up before the fight, hit the mob with stone/aero at the beginning, and spam cure 3. It's not much different than idling but ffxiv is happy with it.

Threat is actually the most logical value to rate players on. For tanks it's their job to generate momentous amounts of threat. For DPS their threat and their damage are equal value unless they're using Quelling or hit something like Elusive Jump (Im actually curious now. Might Elusive Jump near the end of the next Hunt I kill and see if it impacts credit). For healers their threat is equal to their healing+ any DPS they do unless something like Shroud is used. By gauging threat the game is gauging every job's overall output to the battle. The problem isn't with the scoring...the problem is the nature of the fight. Because of the zergfest it's very difficult for DPS to actually push their normal damage numbers (Especially SMN). This hurts traditional parties.

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Originally Posted by gamesmart

And then you'd have people hitting the mark once, leaving, having fewer people to actually kill the thing, possibly leading to a wipe and causing nobody to get credit. No, partial credit needs to stay, and your party needs to work harder if you wanna get full credit. The 60 DoT limit, as well as the entire hunt system, wasn't meant for 300 people to come and blast one mob.

People need to stop calling things broken just because it didn't work out for them.

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The system IS broken. Let's think about it, shall we? The purpose of a mob is to fight it. Not keep healing people who aren't getting hit. The fact that your party should mostly consist of healers and tanks is ridiculous, because that's not now any proper fighting scenario should ever play out. Can you imagine a war that's won with nothing but medics? Naw, you need soldiers, infantrymen and all that jazz. For your information, my party was already working as hard as they could. I already had three WHMs in there and they were spamming Medica II constantly. We couldn't work any harder. And yeah, I was off on the DoT count, but it still doesn't change the fact that so many DoTs are put on that mine slip off and I can't Fester for any damage. I can't do my job AS MY ROLE. Again, there are instances where technical limitations won't even render the mob for someone to tag. If that isn't the very definition of a broken system, I don't know what is.

As for people tagging and leaving, it's quite simple. They leave the mob's zone (which has a buffer area in case they need to dodge AoEs), their credit gets reset. Simple solution.

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Originally Posted by JustPlainLucas

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If your WHMs are spamming Medica II they're not generating max enmity - Medica is better, Cure III is best, but for Cure III you'd need at least 5 people stacked together. And on S ranks - which no longer disappear as per Friday's patch - I'd be pretty surprised if nobody in your party ever got hit, and I've actually saved quite a few people in my party simply from spamming Medica.

The system's not broken, it's the players that are trying to play the system outside of the way it was intended. Also, a 300-on-1 is hardly anywhere near a "proper" fighting scenario, so that point's more or less moot. But if you still want to go there, one could also argue that you brought the wrong soldiers to the fight - this type of situation asks for the type of DPS that hit hard and hit now, not the ones that do gradual damage.

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Originally Posted by JustPlainLucas

The system IS broken. Let's think about it, shall we? The purpose of a mob is to fight it. Not keep healing people who aren't getting hit. The fact that your party should mostly consist of healers and tanks is ridiculous, because that's not now any proper fighting scenario should ever play out. Can you imagine a war that's won with nothing but medics? Naw, you need soldiers, infantrymen and all that jazz. For your information, my party was already working as hard as they could. I already had three WHMs in there and they were spamming Medica II constantly. We couldn't work any harder. And yeah, I was off on the DoT count, but it still doesn't change the fact that so many DoTs are put on that mine slip off and I can't Fester for any damage. I can't do my job AS MY ROLE.

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There's your problem.

And as for your question about a war being won with nothing but tanks and medics. . .well, yeah, I could easily see that happening if magic were real and we had people irl who could tank. >_>

Bring moar WHMs and tanks. And you don't spam medica 2 unless the regen wears. Medica or Cure3 if people are close

One question I like to ask to the OP. Was your ENTIRE party there present from begging to end as you mention you were there. If the answer is um 'no'. Then no matter if you are whm/tank spamming medica/flash, DPS pulling max damage, you are NOT going to get full credit on those fights.

If your party was there, all 8 members present at the target, than I suspect that someone was doing nothing.

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Originally Posted by Natashio

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Yeah, I'm pretty sure everyone was there. Everyone got invited before the mob was pulled, and I'm pretty sure I saw Medica II stacks on everyone. Of course, maybe I'm wrong. It's been several hours since I made this thread. Maybe I'm misremembering something. BUT, this hasn't been the first time I've seen this happen. Just an hour or so after I made this thread, there was another S in Outer La Noscea. Everyone showed up, started attacking right when it was pulled, and still, 30 seals. Sometimes in Odin, you could be in the fight for a good five minutes and still only get silver. It just seems that there's no rhyme or reason for who gets full credit or not. I've showed up to an S rank, Miasma II'd it to tag, got killed by the AoE instantly and was down the entire fight. Got full credit for that. Really shouldn't have, because I contributed nothing to the fight whatsover. *shrugs*

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Originally Posted by gamesmart

If your WHMs are spamming Medica II they're not generating max enmity - Medica is better, Cure III is best, but for Cure III you'd need at least 5 people stacked together. And on S ranks - which no longer disappear as per Friday's patch - I'd be pretty surprised if nobody in your party ever got hit, and I've actually saved quite a few people in my party simply from spamming Medica.
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Not true. The sabotender disappeared on me yesterday and only reappeared after it was dead, and I'm on PS4, so it's still happening (granted, hasn't happened nearly as often, but still isn't entirely fixed).

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Originally Posted by JustPlainLucas

Not true. The sabotender disappeared on me yesterday and only reappeared after it was dead, and I'm on PS4, so it's still happening (granted, hasn't happened nearly as often, but still isn't entirely fixed).

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Sabotender Bailarina's an A rank, not an S rank. Rendering priority was only fixed for S ranks because A ranks don't disappear nearly as often.

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And then you'd have people hitting the mark once, leaving, having fewer people to actually kill the thing,

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GOOD. Right now there's way too many there fighting these and destroying them in far greater crowds than what was intended.

There will be at least some people that will make sure it dies, because people want to, y'know, actually receive their rewards for the kill. It's not like FATEs stopped getting killed just because the atma/alex farmers go there and hit something once and leave, and neither will these NMs.

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Threat is actually the most logical value to rate players on. For tanks it's their job to generate momentous amounts of threat.

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You invalidated your own argument with the very next statement.

DPS are not desired for the event in general because with the massive crowds of people that show up, as mentioned above, the last thing you want is for the thing to be killed faster. DPS are not desired for individual parties because their ability to generate enmity on a single target is by far the lowest out of the three roles.

Threat should not be used to "rate" players because the ability to generate threat is NOT on equal footing. They were *designed* to not be on equal footing. Why is it used to rate players, unless your goal is to specifically ostracize certain classes/jobs out of the event?

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If your WHMs are spamming Medica II they're not generating max enmity

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Problem is that Medica II is the best spell to use to ensure that you're actually hitting your whole party with it, which is helpful in an event where you have a metric crap ton of people around and they might not even be rendering on your screen.

Of course, the fact that they're having to spam any spell specifically for enmity (for a role whose job generally entails trying NOT to get enmity on the mob) should already say on its own how broken the system is.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Problem is that Medica II is the best spell to use to ensure that you're actually hitting your whole party with it, which is helpful in an event where you have a metric crap ton of people around and they might not even be rendering on your screen.

Of course, the fact that they're having to spam any spell specifically for enmity (for a role whose job generally entails trying NOT to get enmity on the mob) should already say on its own how broken the system is.

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Not if the HoT is on the target already.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Problem is that Medica II is the best spell to use to ensure that you're actually hitting your whole party with it

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The difference in radius between Medica and Medica II is pretty small. ..

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

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I failed to complete my argument sufficiently obviously and did not point out the one thing that makes the current rating system awkward. It isn't using threat as a base...that is sound and a good rating system. The problem is not weighting that correctly for each Role, though we don't really know if each role HAS a different threshold for credit since B's no longer matter and As and Ss are based on party not individual. If there weren't 300 people on a mark there would be no problem as there would be plenty enough monster HP to go around. The problem isn't DPS not generating enough enmity compare to tanks...it's the fact the monster's HP pool is diluted across however many parties are out there. We're creating the problem by zerging.

A and S should be the same as B. limited, and only credit if you have the hunt mark. That solves this problem, gets rid of the Zerg, gets smaller groups more like SE intended, and gets people back to playing other parts of the game.

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Originally Posted by Mykll

A and S should be the same as B. limited, and only credit if you have the hunt mark. That solves this problem, gets rid of the Zerg, gets smaller groups more like SE intended, and gets people back to playing other parts of the game.

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Not easy to do with As and Ss since they're party unless you could pick up a mark (be it daiy or w/e) as the party lead then go complete it. It would then almost become Treasure Hunts without the chests though.

Imagine if treasure hunt mobs/groups spawned like hunts, and anybody gets credit/rewards from the various levels of "chests". Oh, wait, don't have to imagine that. It's called hunts. Giving full credit and seals to the mark holder, and lesser rewards (exp, Gil, whatever) to any without the mark but helped, yeah that sounds like treasure chests. It is just odd SE, with the history of the player base to do what they have, from exploiting Fates, speed running, etc. never knew that this was going to happen, and already had a system in place (treasure hunts) that provided some sort of open world content without zerg hunts are today. I think anybody could have told SE this is what players would do, and if this was not their intent, they have several ways to make it more in line with their intent. All in all, just another questionable move by SE.

The only concern to me is reset. Mob does must not reset, just go back in its place but no reset.

It might be a bit of a bear to get a party together that posesses the same mark. Not may people, unless friends and FC members, will join up to just go help with an S rank. Maybe if a partial reward system was introduced. Bill holder get the full credit, rest of the party gets like 15 seals or something. Wold be 155 seals per party. Who knows. I like the way it is now. I get my weekly done asap, and dailies take like 20 mins. Then if needed I pop in a hunt group to get some big baddies and pad my currency. Granted it is not like it was before, but it is still good if not better IMO.

At times I also go as healer, and a few times have not touched the mob, and have gotten full credit. So not sure if "you have to hit it to get it" is completely accurate.

Just my 2g

Syn

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Originally Posted by Synestr

At times I also go as healer, and a few times have not touched the mob, and have gotten full credit. So not sure if "you have to hit it to get it" is completely accurate.

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There have been times where when I'm on WHM, if I didn't hit the mark with something like Aero or Fluid Aura, I would get nothing even though the rest of my party got full credit. Other times it works perfectly fine, so I'd say just do it - better safe than sorry, really.

DPS can get high enmity as well as tank generate little enmity. If some party members suck it doesn't mean credit system for hunts is broken.

Is there a cap on how many people can get onto a mobs emnity list? A few days ago, I was in a 5 tank, 3 healer party for crocodille and we got 5 seals. We were there for the entire fight, start to finish. However, he got pulled slightly away from where our party was positioned and we didn't get to hit the mob initially. I didn't see any emnity bars in the party list throughout the entire fight.

I, too, have experienced the utter BS that is the ridiculously harsh requirement for getting full credit on an S-rank mob, and I suspect that the actual reason behind this is not that the credit system is broken (though it's definitely not good, because seriously, stop devaluing damage so damn much!), but rather because they heavily limit the number of players who are actually able to get full credit in the first place. You're essentially competing for the top spots with everyone else, because there's only so many top spots to go around. Obviously, an easy solution to this would be to just not limit the number of people who can get full credit.

I refuse to believe that I can sit there, with the rest of my party, as a warrior with defiance up and an i110 weapon, spamming aggro generation skills through the ENTIRE fight, and still NOT get full credit because the party wasn't generating enough aggro. That is absolute BS, especially given how incredibly easy it is to get full credit on A-ranks (in fact, just me and one other healer or tank is enough to get full credit on A-ranks - not even a light party is required there)! Granted, this COULD be the problem if there is no cap on the number of people who can get full (and even partial) credit, but my experience tells me otherwise. Either way, this really needs to be fixed.

Hell, I wouldn't complain if simply being near the Hunt mark when it died gave you full credit automatically. It's not as if there's not enough people beating down these things in the first place!

Looking at all the patches made for hunting, I guess S ranks will be supposed to be mobs you can down with just one alliance, aka 24 players alone. No more need to call half server with you, and if you do you will be also punished by the reward cap. Most likely this will be the future of hunting, and the end of the Zerg. Until next hunting-like feature.

I agree with the hit-it-once-for-full-credit idea. On more populated servers people freaking out and getting antsy can be a huge problem and people that hit it and leave the zone entirely won't get any rewards. I've been at several S's this past week with the whole party there before pull and I have not gotten full credit once. If people stop attacking it the enemy doesn't die and they get no rewards, and if they stop attacking it it means other people can get a hit in and more people can benefit and DPS won't be turned away so it's really not a negative.

You forgot to mention to us that you're entire party was there at the start, earning credit the whole time. When people show up late because they're halfway across the map while someone pulls, or spend a good chunk of the fight dead , that's hurts the credit of everyone in the party.

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The difference in radius between Medica and Medica II is pretty small. ..

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I actually think it's pretty significant. There's been many times where I've used Medica II simply for the higher range.

I just hate the fact that if there is even one alliance there it completely hoses any and all full parties as far as the credit goes. The credit should not get destroyed that way. If people are active for the fight they should get full credit even if they are not in the largest party on the S rank.

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Originally Posted by Adler

DPS can get high enmity as well as tank generate little enmity. If some party members suck it doesn't mean credit system for hunts is broken.

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Read what I wrote again. If I can't get my DoTs to stay on, I can't Fester. That is my MAIN source of damage. I could be the world's best Summoner and still not do jackshit against an S with 300 people on it. Skill has nothing to do with something that's TECHNICALLY BROKEN. This is a DESIGN FLAW. As I said before, I tagged an S once then immediately died and was dead the entire fight, yet I still got full credit. I sucked big time, and therefore should not have gotten full credit. But the time I'm talking about in the OP, I was hitting it with everything the game could allow me, and did not receive full credit.

Hunt credit is based on how much hate you generate. Which is why most people are on pld, war, or whm for hunts since these jobs generate the most hate. I can get full credit on pld on an A mob solo with str gear. Playing a dot class like the OP means you won't get much credit because of the dot cap mobs have and its a low hate job in general. My advice would be do hunts on a tank or whm like everyone else to get higher credit.

On S mobs if you didn't get full credit and are in a party its likely you had too many dps classes in the party or people just didn't do anything.

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Originally Posted by NyneAlexander

Is there a cap on how many people can get onto a mobs emnity list? A few days ago, I was in a 5 tank, 3 healer party for crocodille and we got 5 seals. We were there for the entire fight, start to finish. However, he got pulled slightly away from where our party was positioned and we didn't get to hit the mob initially. I didn't see any emnity bars in the party list throughout the entire fight.

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Yes, there is a cap.

I think it's a slight misconception that a players contribution is solely based on their threat, but this doesn't seem to be true.


In off-peak times with very little people hunting you can easily achieve full credit from a mark by doing very little of anything. But when it gets busy with hundreds of people attending getting full credit (on S ranks particularly) becomes extremely difficult even if you perform at your absolute peak of maximum threat generating efficiency. Why is this? It's because the number of players that are able to contribute to a single mark is LIMITED. Only the top x00 players on the global threat list will have their contribution to the mark count when it finally dies.

You will notice in busy periods that many members of your party will not have a threat bar next to their name. Or they might have one at the start but it will disappear soon after the fight begins. This is because that person is being knocked out of the top x00 list of contributors. Even if your group is on the threat list of an S rank for 90% of the fight and at the last 10% you are all knocked off... No credit.

TLDR; You need threat to remain a contributor to the fight, but as long as you are on the top x00 threat list you can pretty much auto-attack a mark to death and receive full credit.

General tips;

• Establish yourself on the mobs limited threat list IMMEDIATELY after you see it go Purple/Red (tag it with a damage dealing skill). Even a 2 second delay on a busy S rank will count you out of that fight permanently.
• Instantly follow up the tag with your highest threat generating skills to ensure you don't get knocked off the threat list. Again, if you fall off that list you will almost never get back and all your contribution is ignored.
• After the tag and initial massive threat dump continue with your most consistent high threat skills until the mob is dead.
• Tanks: Sword Oath is better threat via DPS than Shield Oath is.
• WHMs: Precast Medica II and Regen. Stop precasting anything when you feel a pull is imminent. You cant be sitting in a GCD when that mob turns purple. Aero > Benediction (on the highest HP party member) > Swiftcast > Divine Seal > Medica I > Presence of Mind > Medica I spam (or Cure III if your party is adequately stacked) is the best combo I can come up with.. I would advice against using Shroud of Saints at all but try and precast it when you feel a pull is imminent. If you are attending a busy S rank never use shroud of saints after you have started generating threat, even if you hit 0 mp.
• DPS: You are generally screwed on peak time S ranks. Sorry.
• SMN and SCH are almost 100% worthless even in only slightly busy periods.
• In my personal experience, tanks are kings of consistently getting on and staying on the contributors list. WHMs are able to generate massive threat (way more than tanks) but seem to have a higher risk of getting knocked off the contributor list early on in the fight before they can start spamming.