In Coil 1 Paladin was more or less required because prior to echo having Spirits Within for Turn 1/2 mitigating the need for multiple Bards and Shield Bash easing Dread Knight kills in T5.
Flash's blind doesn't serve a purpose in higher level content (Has some use in Garuda EX iirc), Shield Swipe can conserve TP in emergencies but the pacification is irrelevant, Awareness is probably the least valuable cooldown in the game, Tempered Will has some gimmick applications (Tanking landslides, avoiding inhale in T6, avoiding landmine blowback in T8).
Now I'm not suggesting a return to Coil 1's limiting nature where you always want to bring one Paladin, but wouldn't it be preferable for some of these abilities to either have their effects reworked (Or replaced/augmented) to be more practical in use for end game content?
Paladin lacking the use of utility in Coil 2?
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09-01-2014, 08:58 AMPrototype909Paladin lacking the use of utility in Coil 2?
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09-01-2014, 11:35 AMBrannigan
I kind of talked about this in another thread. Paladin is awesome in 4 man dungeons, but a lot of its abilities are neutered in 8 man.
The biggest offenders (imo) are Shield Swipe and Shield Bash. Other than Ifrit hard and the Dorme Chimera, I can't think of any 8 man bosses that actually let you pacify them. Mmmmayyyybe an add on Leviathan Extreme? Either way, Pacify is really overpowered, which is why we don't get to use it. Same thing with Shield Bash stun. Paladin already hurts for usable WSes, so taking away those two just further cements the whole "123123" thing.
Sooo my thinking is since paladin already does way less damage than warrior while tanking, why not turn Shield Swipe and Shield Bash into real DPS increases? Yeah, swipe is technically better than Halone combo, but it's not really a good damage increase. Here's what I'd do:
Shield Swipe - stays as is
Shield Bash: Delivers an attack with potency 110. (TP Cost 150)
Additional Effect: Stun 6s (PvP 4s)
Combo Action: Shield Swipe / Combo Potency: 390
Combo Bonus: Restores 80 TP over 15 seconds.
So basically you get a 300 potency/gcd combo (Halone is 203/gcd) that you can do every 15s after a block if you want to stay okay on TP. A nice DPS boost that you can't really use while OTing.
As for blind and awareness, I think they're kind of lost causes. The devs seem content with Awareness (even with how crappy it is), and I don't see them letting us bring random dodge chance into carefully calculated boss fights. Tempered Will actually gets a decent amount of use, IMO, though I wouldn't mind a shorter cooldown. Overall, though, I agree with you that a lot of our pure utility skills should be changed into buttons that can be used in *every* fight. Warrior is a good example of this since their rework. Outside of Holmgang and Fracture you can probably find a use for every one of their buttons in every fight. -
09-01-2014, 04:53 PMAbigs
I dont think warriors have it any better
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09-01-2014, 06:18 PMKydi
Swipe is, as it currently stands, helpful in maintaining enough to, particularly given that it doesn't break combo. I do think that Shield bash should be cheaper - 150TP is a huge cost for a weak attach and a stun.
Having only had limited experience of endgame I certainly have found that paladins are limited in function. I can hold hate with a 123, but other than that my abilities don't really have any benefit. It would be nice to see some other utility, perhaps flash dropping magic defence for a while or something like that instead of blind. -
09-02-2014, 01:16 AMPrototype909Warriors have more damage while main tanking, they never had utility but that was never the draw of the class (Unless you count the debuff combo route). You brought a Paladin in first Coil because they were basically necessary in pre-echo T5 to stunlock Dreadknights and because they helped in T1/T2 for the silence. If these abilities aren't actually going to have use in anything outside of leveling content in the future (Which is currently the trend if 2nd Coil is indication) then wouldn't it be preferable for them to rework some of these abilities into a second combo route (To address the 123 complaints with PLD). This isn't necessarily about "Buffing" Paladin so much as it is making Paladin actually feel like a complete class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abigs
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09-02-2014, 02:56 AMBranniganHolmgang and Brutal Swing have some of their utility disabled, but you can still use Holmgang to prevent knockback and death and Brutal Swing can be used for damage on everything. Warriors get to use all of their buttons in way more situations, so they feel like a more complete class. For me, at least, it's not necessarily about effectiveness. If hey had to take away some utility in order to make paladins more complete overall, I'd take that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abigs
This isn't really a problem unique to paladins, though, and I don't really expect anything to be done about it before the expansion. Monks are another class with a lot of useless skills or very limited skills (One Ilm Punch, Haymaker, etc) -
09-02-2014, 05:28 PMReynhartMaybe if bosses were immune to Storm's Eye or Storm's Path debuff, you'd understand why we think there's an issue here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abigs
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09-03-2014, 11:39 AMDano
T9, silencing earthshock golems, using tempered will for chariot and heavensfall, eating bahamut claws like a boss with proper use of HG...etc. I don't know, seems pretty good utility here.
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09-03-2014, 05:21 PMLukeyP666
As I said in another thread, who says that the third tier of Coil won't see a return to key members of the party using their utility skills?
Binding Coil seemed to focus on one or two key members a bit more (silencing ADS, chain-stunning Dreads, etc.), whereas Second Coil seems to be more about team cohesion and all working together as a unit. There's very little opportunity for anyone to just tunnel vision and ignore mechanics.
And as Dano said, in Turn 9 there are plenty of opportunities for Paladins to use their utility skills. -
09-03-2014, 06:26 PMAlphrasStorm's Path immunity would be like a Rage of Halone debuff immunity, which does not exist. The thing with WAR is, beside increasing damage for PLD, they don't have any utility to begin with. I would love to have a Cover like ability...Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Edit: And it is bad design to begin with if a certain class is absolutely needed. -
09-04-2014, 01:23 AMYuriRamona
Are people really looking at mechanics that required a Paladin's Shield Bash and Spirits Within and thinking,
"We need more of that"?
Interrupt mechanics are the laziest MMO mechanics. It's horrendous because only three to four jobs have access to Silence. It's even worse because every job has a different means of using Stun.
We don't need any more duties that require PLD to go stunbot (Dreadnoughts, Leviathan adds).
Let's get some real mechanics and real utility through new abilities. We don't have to be satisfied with the current paltry list of abilities and think about how to adapt new mechanics to work with those. It will always be annoying because they will rely on Stun or Silence. Please, no more interrupt/locking mechanics.
We need more interesting abilities such as Tempered Will. Maybe give PLDs Full Swing. Make Cover more interesting with a side effect. Anything. Please. Anything but stun or silence mechanics. -
09-04-2014, 03:11 AMReynhartRequired, no. Useful, why not. And since we only have two tanks, almost every party already has a PLD, so it's not like "PLD only" is a big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by YuriRamona
OP is talking about current jobs. We'll have new abilities with the level cap increase.Quote:
Originally Posted by YuriRamona
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09-04-2014, 04:09 AMMister-Wonderful
Warrior does not out dps paladin in non tanking stance, and if anything paladin often does more than an equally geared warrior if the warrior is doing slashing resist down. In tanking stance, warrior will push ahead in burst because of unchained, but once again are near equal dps overall. Does anyone blindly saying warrior has more dps do any testing at all?
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09-04-2014, 05:54 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful
The only time PLD and WAR DPS is equal is when WAR in MTing and keeping storms path up.
WAR MT >>> PLD MT
WARx2 >>>>> PLDx2
WAR MT PLD OT = WAR MT WAR OT
WAR MT PLD OT > PLD MT WAR OT
The only way for PLD to hang is to bring a WAR and then the WAR has to MT. The DPS is not equal at all. -
09-04-2014, 06:04 AMGildartsthe only testing or good DPS for PLD we saw were t8 and done by JPs other than that i dont see any other good numbers in 6 7 9, and iirc some dude from DNT here parsed war vs pld on dummy and war was 30 DPS more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful
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09-05-2014, 12:29 AMSandamar?? Lol?Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
Totally disagree on this. There is no reason to have the War MT unless you want to stress the healer. Have fun in T9 with war MT.
The only place where you want warrior as MT and have the paladin OT is phase 3 in T6. Cuz yeah have fun holding the slug for burn strategy on T6 with a warrior :)
Paladin tanking is much more safer in T8 when you double tank Avatar+DN. And my assessment are based on raiding experience because the other day in my static we decided to swap the MT position (so i was OT and the war was MT) and trust me in T8 and T9 the healer were like WTF switch back. Same goes for T7 if your MT happens to double tank Melusine and 1 add.
The only place where war mitigation was enough was for Sentence in T5 with Inner Beast. -
09-05-2014, 01:37 AMYuriRamonaAbilities with reworked functions are essentially new abilities, in my mind. Sorry for the confusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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09-05-2014, 06:59 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Sandamar
First of all read before responding, I was referring to DPS.
As for your raid experience:
Get better tanks or healers? I can solo tank every turn on either job NP. I do prefer PLD for solo tanking T9 since I'm responsible for tanking and placing DB markers and PLD is a much simpler job.
T6: Kill the slugs before Acid rain.....
T7: IB for tail swipe, save CDs for adds. The only trying part is the first 3 adds and you have 3 CDs plus IB.
T8: Save CDs for adds, you should only have to tank 2 dreads. WAR is very much the ideal tank here.
T9: P1: IB for Beaks, CDs for 2nd and 3rd Blights. P3: IBx2+Conva for Nael+Dragon. P4: IB+CD for claws, save HG for the 3rd Claw. -
09-05-2014, 08:05 AMAlphras
Sorry, but WAR is the ideal MT for at least T6 and T8(if he is able to play his class at least). First time I am hearing that PLD is better in T8 as solo tank than WAR o.O
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09-05-2014, 04:57 PMMister-WonderfulWell, as I assume you don't test anything, figured I'd just do it again myself with equal gear on both. I haven't tanked hardly since 2.2 (Besides lol hunts), but it's still gotten some freelot gear and I used a couple sands on it since my dd's are i108-110 now. If you don't believe me, then go test yourself, I'm including a video, but I won't go too detailed on parse info. (I guess I could PM you, but meh)Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
3 minutes on each job, all in 1 video. Forgot to split it the video. Rounding a few numbers because lazyness. Just went all out dps until 3 minute mark, Skipped fracture on Pld as TP is dumb. Also this is just for DPS as said before, not in any way optimal tanking strategy. I know someone will say it.
Pretty basic combos, I only put this here if you wanted to see the rotation and gear I used to get this. Swapped to paladin at 3:29.
Warrior overall damage 50,000 at 3 minute mark, with 10% slashing resistance down from self (of course, needs dat maim anyway)
Paladin overall damage 46,000 at 3 minute mark, without 10% slashing resistance down.
Pretty expected, but if we add the damage bonus from assuming a warrior was MT, and as I'm not going to make some poor sap apply debuff for me, I just did math instead. We have to assume that the warrior needs time to build hate, about 30 seconds is usually enough, after all buffs are worn, and then can start applying Storms Eye) (lol storm's path)
46,000 / 10 = 4600
4600 / 6 = 767 (close enough)(30 seconds for Hate)
4600 - 767 = 3833
Adding it all together: 46,000 + 3833 = 49,833 Obviously this will vary greatly due to crits, timing, and many other variables, that I just don't care and did very basic math, but those numbers end up very close, even to begin with. Even if the MT couldn't keep full uptime on Storm's Eye, DPS is hardly effected. If you were to assume that there were 2 WAR tanks, Both warriors still need maim, and will have different methods of not overlapping and wasting debuffs, but there isn't a whole lot of damage gained from having 2 warriors tanking, and you also lose the strength debuff that Rage of Halone brings, so I don't know many that do this anyway, unless the players prefer WAR, or Nael keeps dropping HA axes.
I didn't bother to do Main tank, because Warrior does have an edge on damage and TP cost. The DPS difference isn't immense though really at all. While Warrior will often lead depending on role, I don't think most realize how close the DPS really is. -
09-05-2014, 05:11 PMLukeyP666
I MT Turn 6 and the back end of 7 as Warrior, but this is because the adds in both Turns hit harder than the actual boss and we're lazy and exploit the crap out of Hallowed Ground for the Super Slug and Prosecutor :P
We tank swap after the Bowyer adds are dead, so the MT can burn through his cooldowns leading up to it, and I have all of mine available since tanking the first three adds. Works pretty nicely to be honest.
Haven't tried solo tanking Turn 8 yet as I switch to Monk (because it's better geared than some of my Static's mains :D) and my Paladin buddy solos it.
After reading this and all the other threads on here about Paladin vs Warrior, and as a player who plays both, I'm still a firm believer - Why not bring one of each? People get so butthurt on these forums when people say one tank is better than another. They're pretty well balanced if you ask me and can pretty much do anything that the other can right now, and they compliment each other pretty well with their respected debuffs. -
09-05-2014, 05:14 PMMister-WonderfulAgreed, most I know do this already, and my static has since the beginning. What do I know though, I'm just the DD :pQuote:
Originally Posted by LukeyP666
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09-05-2014, 05:53 PMAlphrasYes they are. These discussions are all about minor differences that don't really affect the fights very much. PLD and WAR can tank any content in this game easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by LukeyP666
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09-05-2014, 10:53 PMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful
Thank you for the info.
I've never tested on Dummys for a tank job, just DPS jobs.
I do however play with tank rolls in Coil2. When we bring WARx2 the rotation is changed since you can do SE,BB,BB which is higher potency. WAR also benefits from Facture as well as becoming TP starved much later in a fight.
While PLD has a very basic hard to mess up rotation, WAR is more complex, since you have to squeeze as much potency into Berzerk as possible. Internal release is also a nice DPS increase.
WAR MT is also a pretty substantial DPS increase over PLD MT. Unchained alone really sets WAR apart from PLD but add that to Maim, IR and Storms they pull ahead quickly. (even more quickly comparing solo tank to solo tank) -
09-07-2014, 10:35 PMUltimatecaliburGoing to point out some mistakes with your testing:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mister-Wonderful
Your Paladin build has has 40 less Str, 30 more Vit, 44 less Determination and 15 more Crit, 19 more Accuracy and 28 more Parry than your Warrior build.
The difference in Strength between a Warrior and Paladin with equally allocated bonus attributes is 10 in favor of the Warrior.
Equipment wise:
Wave Axe is +27 Crit +28 Det vs the Allagan Blade and Wave Shield +19 Acc +28 Parry +8 Crit +8 Det
Warrior's Breeches are +24 Parry +24 Det vs the Heavy Allagan Cuisses +34 Crit +24 Parry
30 Str and 44 Det is a serious advantage over 15 Crit in dps numbers.
You seriously handicapped the Paladin in your dps test. -
09-09-2014, 11:00 AMExstal
There is already a thread comparing WAR to PLD, it's probably a good idea to use it.