Good Solution To End Game Raid Issues

Problem: People who simply cannot meet fundamental skill challenges necessary to progressing in raids (aka, dodging, maintaining good dps, using cooldowns, and other acts of situational awareness) make it very difficult for raiders to form groups within the FFXIV community that can make progress. Socially uncomfortable screening processes to eliminate players can take weeks before a good static is finally formed.

Solution: A required single player encounter tuned to be as difficult in its mechanics as a raid boss that tests a player in all requisite skills. If he is capable of meeting end game requirements for situational awareness and his particular role, then he passes and can continue on to participate in the group content. Otherwise he just keeps dying, thus preventing him from becoming an obstacle to raiders.

There is no solo test right now, but HM and EX primals are good skill tests for endgame. If you can't get past these due to dying constantly to the same mechanics and can't past it without a carry, you're not gonna do very well at the endgame raids.

IMO the problem isn't the players themselves, its the fact that if you are limited to joining DF, or new groups everytime. Then you are always having to retrain people over and over again. You don't ever get a group that is like you and has practiced the fight constantly.So you're basically always dealing with the inexperienced player that YOU were that first few times you went in. I wish there was a better function for DF, kinda like a ranking system. Where the game would somehow take into account you've gotten this far in the fight X many times, and didn't die, so you get ranked higher, and get put in with like ranked people next time you go in.

Honestly don't think this would solve anything. Working with other players is just as much a part of raids as anything. Just because a player can beat 1 solo instance the way the guy on YouTube did (Yep, there will be a guide on exactly how to beat these that tells the player exactly what to do) doesn't change bad players in raids. They will only have to beat this instance once. Too easy in a game where most fights are based on memorizing boss patterns.

They should add voice chat to the Duty Finder. This would help train people who simply, do not know and should know.

I have to say this, your post made my day and I cant stop laughing at your ignorance..*lol*...But let be serious.

Building a static takes time, by its definition you will have different people forming said static some good others less, give them some times and they will be the best there is why? becasue in a group there is you, the others individually, then the group, then you within that group, each individual need to catch up with each other, learn of each other yep I know alien notion to many, and once this is achieved the group is ready for anything..becasue they know each others, reaction weakness and strenght, going into DF or PF with total unknow is taking the risk to hve people that are not yet like you, but will be given the right time some more some less, everything takes time, and fine tuning even more time, even within a group that is together since long.

I am not sure where this self entitledment of yours came from and probably the failures of those groups in Titan EX were also probably many times your fault too ....you not immune to dying and you not immune to not knowing either, nobody is that perfect to allow himself or herself to throw away the rest. The question though is why you still rely on PUG ? you already shoudl ahve a static build since long, your fault if you have to deal with PUGs and if you have no choice, live with it or stop playing.

Also, playing along with you are other 3 / 7 or more people you are only a portion of it you depend on others if you die may not be your fault but someone's else fault, eg drag the enemy on you or not hold aggro, should I be rank bad for deing because of someone else ? I think really people should stop playing if ti is such a stress *lol*

Mei

Best solution to end game raiding issues remains joining a static group and train for it as a team.

So you want a solo player encounter where the player has to step outside of an aoe and kill a few things? More or less the same I do on a levequest.

Problem with 8 man content is more a lack of coordination so everyone is doing the same dance/startegy, and you can do something like that only with actual players, not npc.

Right, because segregation is a wonderful solution....... not.

In PUG's you take what you get and you find a way to make it work, teach the others who dont understand, put in the effort to do it. Some people will always have trouble dodging mechanics, not because they are bad players, but because SE has a retarded networking system where ping time is key to getting clear, and thats outside the player's control.

If you want constant perfection (as you seem to), form a static and stay with it and dont PUG.

What harm would it do? Seriously, if they can't even make it through a solo encounter where the only thing holding them back is themselves, then what good are they to a static or any other end game group where those mechanics will be all the time?

That's the point.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

What harm would it do? Seriously, if they can't even make it through a solo encounter where the only thing holding them back is themselves, then what good are they to a static or any other end game group where those mechanics will be all the time?

That's the point.

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Ah, but it goes both ways......

What good are you if you arent willing to take time to teach people how to get past those things they have trouble with?

Did no one ever take the time to teach/train you, or were you born with the ability to do everything in life without anyone helping?

TSW actually has a system like this. Fittingly, it's called the "gatekeeper", and has tanking, healing, and DPS versions you can do. In the healing version in particular, you have to take care of DPS NPCs that sometimes stand in AoE, raid damage, and aggro moving between the melees. In all of them you also have to dodge.

Unfortunately, I can't really say it helps with elitists. People still want you to link high end loot, have top end gear, have clear exp, etc etc.

That said, it is a wakeup call for a lot of players that get that far.

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Originally Posted by Teirshin

Ah, but it goes both ways......

What good are you if you arent willing to take time to teach people how to get past those things they have trouble with?

Did no one ever take the time to teach/train you, or were you born with the ability to do everything in life without anyone helping?

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Because there are people who rage quit after two attempts when the going gets tough or aren't willing to put the time down to do the fights. You can't help people who do nothing to help themselves.

So I've made two different suggestions on this board. On the first one, everyone seems to like it, but detractors wine about how it would waste development time on creating a tuned down variant of the current stuff even though it would have no effect on the content they are running.

I then suggest the opposite solution, and people now complain about how it's horrible that my suggestion would segregate the community (like it isn't already...) and somehow I'm a terrible person for even suggesting it.

So, according to these forums, the act of thinking is a punishable offense. I think these forums need to chill. Seriously, just chill.

They will never design a system that outright tells players "You're bad". They rather keep the illusion so people keep paying (and wiping in pugs). Solution: Be smart. Many solutions have been provided in this thread and others. Use it.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

They will never design a system that outright tells players "You're bad". They rather keep the illusion so people keep paying (and wiping in pugs). Solution: Be smart. Many solutions have been provided in this thread and others. Use it.

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They are irrelevant because the topic of the thread is about a potential development solution, and has nothing to do with whether I can or can't currently raid. Those "suggestions" you mentioned are all formed on baseless assumptions that I cannot raid, therefore I have created a constructive post as a form of complaint. That in and of itself makes little sense, given the constructive nature of the post. So again, they are irrelevant suggestions being given by people making baseless presumptions about the poster's motives instead of the contents of the post.

The "solo test" thing won't fix anything.

The problem comes from the human social behaviour itself.
It's also known as: "The more people in a group, the more retarded the whole group is".

This is why any big Hunt group is called a "zerg" and has the intellectual quotient of an oyster.
No matter what the skill of a player on its own is.

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Originally Posted by Teirshin

Ah, but it goes both ways......

What good are you if you arent willing to take time to teach people how to get past those things they have trouble with?

Did no one ever take the time to teach/train you, or were you born with the ability to do everything in life without anyone helping?

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No one can use your mouse and keyboard to dodge stuff for you, that's on your own and being able to dodge stuff is a something people still have problems with despite the fact that there is a huge indicator telling you to get out of it.

You know what a good long-term solution to this is? Killing the elitist attitudes, letting players gain experience at a decent pace, and not expecting a 1-shot KO every time.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

They are irrelevant because the topic of the thread is about a potential development solution, and has nothing to do with whether I can or can't currently raid. Those "suggestions" you mentioned are all formed on baseless assumptions that I cannot raid, therefore I have created a constructive post as a form of complaint. That in and of itself makes little sense, given the constructive nature of the post. So again, they are irrelevant suggestions being given by people making baseless presumptions about the poster's motives instead of the contents of the post.

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And I'm telling you that your potential development solution is not a well thought out one for reasons Teirshin and I mentioned. I don't think anyone, at least not me, have made any assumptions about you. But it seems to be you seek to champion a cause speaking on behalf of all mid-core raiders and what they want. The truth is that no system works perfectly. Not yours, not Blizzards, not SE. You can't speak for everyone. What can be mentioned though are potential solutions to improve chances of success for raiding, and one of these is to form a static, which I will again mention, is not that difficult to do. You (not you specifically, but the generic you) need to make sacrifices if you want to achieve any degree of success, and it works in real life or in game as well)

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Originally Posted by Fendred

What harm would it do? Seriously, if they can't even make it through a solo encounter where the only thing holding them back is themselves, then what good are they to a static or any other end game group where those mechanics will be all the time?

That's the point.

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they still add to the subscription fee which gets us more content developed.

there should be more tutorial quests even at max level but that's all they should be.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Because there are people who rage quit after two attempts when the going gets tough or aren't willing to put the time down to do the fights. You can't help people who do nothing to help themselves.

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The way you come across, the only person you want to help is yourself, and no one else.

"These other people arent as good as me so they're inferior and an inconvenience! Lets put them in a section all by themselves!"

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Originally Posted by Dwill

No one can use your mouse and keyboard to dodge stuff for you, that's on your own and being able to dodge stuff is a something people still have problems with despite the fact that there is a huge indicator telling you to get out of it.

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Not everyone easily spots all the indicators or knows all the "telltale signs" of a specific event happening.

Clue them in, teach them if need be, after that, just accept that not everyone is going to be 100% all the time (not even OP, not even you or me) and make the most of what you've got.

Or come to the forums and complain and suggest we start in game segregation..... because that has a history of working soooooo well..... not.

Got a good laugh out of this thread. Thanks for making my day :)!

Maat says hello!



edit: I like how that name still scares a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by Woggers

There is no solo test right now, but HM and EX primals are good skill tests for endgame. If you can't get past these due to dying constantly to the same mechanics and can't past it without a carry, you're not gonna do very well at the endgame raids.

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When I test out new members for my raid team, I use Titan Extreme and also make DPS do Ramuh HM. Titan Extreme shows me that DPS and healers can pay attention to mechanics, dodge, and notice patterns in attacks and tests tanks for tank swapping and add pick ups. Ramuh HM allows me to check for sheer damage output and skill usage for DPS, since there is minimal movement required throughout most of the fight, except for the bard who should be able to move and DPS at the same time. Both of those are great tools for showing what someone is made of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfxPZZ6fmNE

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Originally Posted by Teirshin

Ah, but it goes both ways......

What good are you if you arent willing to take time to teach people how to get past those things they have trouble with?

Did no one ever take the time to teach/train you, or were you born with the ability to do everything in life without anyone helping?

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No, I was born with the ability to learn and teach myself by observing what's happening around me. Like all people have.

Next, teaching people is all well and good, but why am I teaching people in over 75% of instances I do? Things they should of learned on their own, just about their role. You cannot expect those people to have to teach everyone, over and over and over. Because that kind of does happen.

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Originally Posted by RickXRolled

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfxPZZ6fmNE

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Oh it's been so long since i've seen that.... Go! Go! Go! Go!

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

TSW actually has a system like this. Fittingly, it's called the "gatekeeper", and has tanking, healing, and DPS versions you can do. In the healing version in particular, you have to take care of DPS NPCs that sometimes stand in AoE, raid damage, and aggro moving between the melees. In all of them you also have to dodge.

Unfortunately, I can't really say it helps with elitists. People still want you to link high end loot, have top end gear, have clear exp, etc etc.

That said, it is a wakeup call for a lot of players that get that far.

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That sounds awesome! and a hell of a lot better than a training dummy.

I like the idea. Im a legacy player that recently returned due to life happening before. Im nearly done main questline and and about to do endgame on scholar. And id love some solo instance to learn some healing rotations and the like (that work for me) without having to make a party wipe multiple times because I am not good at end game healing.

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Originally Posted by Teirshin

Not everyone easily spots all the indicators or knows all the "telltale signs" of a specific event happening.

Clue them in, teach them if need be, after that, just accept that not everyone is going to be 100% all the time (not even OP, not even you or me) and make the most of what you've got.

Or come to the forums and complain and suggest we start in game segregation..... because that has a history of working soooooo well..... not.

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In this game, the signs are extremely obvious. If you can't spot them, you seriously lack a lot of raid awareness and honestly, that's on their end to work on.

I agree with adding a "test" to the game. They already have some, during class quests that usually require you to do a certain thing to win correctly. So why not build on this?

In my opinion, after you have reached 50 you should be required to pass a "max level" or I guess "raid" test, which requires a certain DPS level (meaning you need to form a decent rotation) while dealing with avoiding an assortment of mechanics. If they are not going to allow people to see how much DPS they are doing so they can form proper rotations on their own, then they should do something like this.

I love these threads. As players you want to level up at super speeds and hit End Game before the game even hits one year old. The sheer ease of the game promotes this behavior. Why learn when you an essentially just button mash 90% of the game. This is the game you want, this is the game you've been given, and its going to produce a majority of just button mashers. You made your bed, lay in it.

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Originally Posted by Sonofbaldo

I love these threads. As players you want to level up at super speeds and hit End Game before the game even hits one year old. The sheer ease of the game promotes this behavior. Why learn when you an essentially just button mash 90% of the game. This is the game you want, this is the game you've been given, and its going to produce a majority of just button mashers. You made your bed, lay in it.

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Or add a solution to help players learn the jobs they play. Would probably be a more helpful and logical choice.

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Originally Posted by Woggers

There is no solo test right now, but HM and EX primals are good skill tests for endgame. If you can't get past these due to dying constantly to the same mechanics and can't past it without a carry, you're not gonna do very well at the endgame raids.

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Dodging AOE is a huge issue for a lot of players and I am one of them, but at no fault to my own. 49 times out of 50 I am not standing in the highlighted AOE but I will get hit by the AOE 50% of the time never the less. This is a known bug that has been going on since 1.0 that Square needs to address. It makes raiding impossible for players bugged by the AOE.

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Originally Posted by Denrok

Dodging AOE is a huge issue for a lot of players and I am one of them, but at no fault to my own. 49 times out of 50 I am not standing in the highlighted AOE but I will get hit by the AOE 50% of the time never the less. This is a known bug that has been going on since 1.0 that Square needs to address. It makes raiding impossible for players bugged by the AOE.

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What you have there is either poor latency or a poor understanding of how AoEs work in this game. Either way, it's not a bug that plagues a few special snowflakes.
If you move out of a telegraph after it has disappeared, you are already caught in it. You have to move out of the telegraph before it disappears. With bad latency, there is a shorter time window for you to make said movements.

You know how some spells normally cancel if you move while casting them right? (e.g. Stone, Fire...etc.)
If you move when they are almost finished casting, they go through instead of cancelling.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

What you have there is either poor latency or a poor understanding of how AoEs work in this game. Either way, it's not a bug that plagues a few special snowflakes.
If you move out of a telegraph after it has disappeared, you are already caught in it. You have to move out of the telegraph before it disappears. With bad latency, there is a shorter time window for you to make said movements.

You know how some spells normally cancel if you move while casting them right? (e.g. Stone, Fire...etc.)
If you move when they are almost finished casting, they go through instead of cancelling.

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Yes I know about the delay when canceling a spell cast and having the cast still go through. This is the same delay that slams people on the AOE. It is highly frustrating.

Real solution #9: Hardcores stop selling carries to casuals.

I'm not sure if its been said (due to laziness), but if I'm not mistaken there is already something to prepare players. i think its called lvl 1-49. Don't quote me on that though.

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Originally Posted by Makado

Or add a solution to help players learn the jobs they play. Would probably be a more helpful and logical choice.

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The solution is to add a test. We were tested in the earlier stages of leveling a class (i.e 1-30) though those were pretty light in some respects with notable quests going to one of the GLD quests where you had to keep aggro off an npc who can die very easily.

I agree with the OP but would take it a step further by adding a quest line, relevant to the lore that forces you into a solo instance which requires you to know your class or else you fail (i.e healers need to keep npcs alive, tanks need to keep aggro off npcs, dps need to kill boss in a time limit, etc) and is a prerequisite to unlocking the raid content. SE if you are reading this, doing fates or fetch quests to unlock raids is not a good prerequisite. By using the solo instance test as a prerequisite test to get into the raid it stop people from selling carries since they can't enter the dungeon and filters out those who want to raid to those who don't.

An example of this would be like finding parts that drop from and A rank mark (that drop at a reasonable rate 30-50%) that needs to be crafted into keys (can be crafted by any lvl 50) that are required to unlock the solo instance that will in turn give you access to the Third Coil of Bahamut raid.

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Problem: People who simply cannot meet fundamental skill challenges necessary to progressing in raids...

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I would like to mention, there are many cool and experienced raiders who
only perform cool in their static, and they will act like a noob when pug a random dungeon.

Just want to say, to become a cool raider, doesn't mean you have to master your "fundamental skill", very often, it just means your raid is cool.