I just hit level 50 yesterday on my SCH, and my raid group notified me that they'd like me to SMN T7 (so I can kite renauds). I'm SMN ilvl 105 (thanks to BLM being my main and a few stashed rowena primal tokens)
I've rarely touched SMN. In fact, I still haven't acquired Garuda lol.
My points were allocated to Mind.... what should they be now?
Also, I've no idea what to do for rotations. This is what I do (lacking 45 and 50 job abilities):
Bio, Bio 2, Miasma, Bio (it runs low at that point), Rouse, Fester, Swiftcast Shadow Flare, Raging Strikes, Ruin 1 spam while watching DoTs and reapplying when needed. I also use the other 2 Aetherflows to Ruin 1, Ruin 2, Energy Drain, Ruin 1, Ruin 2, Energy Drain before I reset.
I need SMN help! (Rotations, point allowance)
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08-18-2014, 04:12 AMSkeith-AdelineI need SMN help! (Rotations, point allowance)
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08-18-2014, 04:32 AMHavenchildForgive me, but that's a pretty bad rotation you got there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline
Its hard to give you advice for this situation. You solely intend on doing T7 as a summoner im guessing? To be honest, respecing your mind for int is pointless. Since you can basically do the same thing on SCH as a Summoner can if your handling Renauds. Simply go Cleric Stance, use Ruin II to pick up a Renaud and Miasma it in place. Keep DoTs up on Boss and Adds, Swift Shadowflares, Ruin I Spam.
If your being forced to go Summoner full time, then you might as well respec for INT then, Get Garuda and finish your class quests.
If not full time just forget the INT respec, I suppose if your still SCH for the other turns.
My personal best DPS opening rotation for single target,
Raging Strikes (Pot after this if you intend to) -> Bio II -> Miasma (Move towards boss as this is finishing cast) -> Bio =>> Rouse (Immediately Rouse before you even see this DoT appear since this is the slowest DoT and your on GCD, also to filler movement to the boss) -> Fester -> Miasma II (Poison Pot after this if you intend on using it) -> Tap Contagion (Pet skill) and Swiftcast at the same time, Contagion First -> Shadow Flare -> Spur -> Ruin 2 -> Enkindle -> Ruin 2 till Fester is back up -> Fester -> Ruin 2 (Raging Strikes falls off) ->
You can also use Rouse later after you cast Shadow Flare like (Shadow Flare-> Rouse -> Ruin II -> Spur -> Ruin II -> Enkindle -> Ruin II or Fester (Fester takes priority if its up, if not Ruin II then Fester) -> Ruin II) - but you have a good chance of missing that last Ruin II before Raging Strikes falls off without enough SS.
I personally use the Rouse after I cast Bio because I feel that delay in between casting Bio and the ailment appearing on the monster, can throw you off sometimes with timing that Fester ASAP. With my way, once the animation is done from Rouse, Bio is already up on the mob so I can just Fester immediately with no timing flaw associated with it.
After that opening, the rest of the fight is keeping up DoTs, trying not to clip them too early and grouping skills together like Contagion + Miasma II, using your off-GCD skills when able during a GCD.
You can do that entire opening rotation before the first Renaud spawns and before the fireballs are sent out for range characters. Past that though, just keep Dots on the adds and your Renaud duties take precedence. -
08-18-2014, 04:53 AMSkeith-Adeline
It's okay haha! I'm really new to SMN
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08-18-2014, 05:01 AMSkeith-Adeline
Oh lord that is much more complicated than BLM rotations.
Hm... If it makes any difference, I am on Ps4 so many of the actions might be a tad bit delayed thanks to switching hotbars.
I'm probably going to SMN T6 and T7 since I don't trust my DPS in T6. -
08-18-2014, 05:03 AMlordparanoia
Your rotation should be:
Raging strikes
Bio2
Miasma
Bio
Swiftcast shadowflare
Contagion
Fester
Spam Ruin/ruin2
Fester
Raging strikes goes off
Then u continue with Ruin until you need to refresh your dots. Use fester and refresh aetherflow.
Use rouse+spur (not in gcd) when possibile and depending on how much damage you need to do use Enkindle (for example when u need to push dps rouse/spur/Enkindle is powerful).
In t7: keep Garuda on Melusine or it will kill the renauds. Refresh your dots and fester melusine and the Lamias.
Take the renaud with ruin2 and when they are in position use miasma. Then, focus again on Melusine or the adds.
Remember that the potency of your dots is influenced by the buff you have before you cast them. If you need to use a x potion of intelligence be sure that u have contagion up. -
08-18-2014, 06:43 PMMalusion
So I've been wondering a while on the opening rotation, why do people insist on starting with bio 2? Seems to me its better to go like this single target:
Bio 1 -> Bio 2 -> Miasma (has lower time to be registered as up for fester than bio and bio 2, so you can fester faster) -> Fester -> Swiftcast Shadowflare -> Ruin -> Ruin -> Bio -> Fester -> Contagion
This way you'll get 2 full bio durations outside of the contagion boost, both with raging strikes up. In addition its generally better to start with your highest potency per tick dot as a rule of thumb. You get roughly 45-50 more potency out of your opening rotation like that.
Edit: Actually, I guess the argument is people don't want to delay contagion by waiting the first bio out, so I will take the time to do the maths of that opening's increased potency vs potency lost by holding contagion for a bit!
So the delayed contagion will be without raging strikes, since you'll be able to get raging strikes off and have contagion back in time to extend those buffs on the third one. I will also assume that this is a scenario where you can maintain dots even without contagion, though that does admittedly make it slightly off topic for a thread on kiting renauds as SMN, though it is relevant to t6!
In this case, the bonus damage from a contagion adds nothing to your 3 main dots, as you'd refresh those manually anyway, and as such the bonus potency is nearly completely gained from extra Ruin casts from the saved GCDs, so lets figure out just how many ruins we can cast as a bonus from one contagion.
Contagion obviously extends the dot timers by 15 seconds per dot, so we can say that the extra time to cast ruins gained is equivalent to how much of the dot 15 seconds amounts to. If I am speaking a bit weirdly, it is because I am not a native speaker, so apologies. For an example: Bio 2 has a 30 second duration, so contagion's 15 second boost amounts to 50% of the total duration of a bio 2, and as such nets you an extra 0.5 GCDs worth of ruin, or 40 potency. By this logic we can quickly figure out what the saved GCDs of each dot is.
15 seconds is:
83.33% of Bio 1 (18 total)
62.5% of Miasma (24 total)
50% of Bio 2 (30 total)
Thus a contagion without any buffs nets us a grand total of 1.958 GCDs, but for simplicity's sake, lets round that up to 2, making an unbuffed contagion a grand total of 160 bonus potency above your regular rotation, before adding in miasma 2.
Miasma 2 is obviously a different beast entirely, as it wouldn't be used without contagion due to only having a base total potency of 70. Adding another 15 seconds, or 5 ticks, makes that 120, or a bonus potency of 40, since you have to detract the potency of the ruin you are choosing not to cast by casting miasma 2. This means contagion without raging strikes has a total bonus potency of 200.
Now if that was the end of it, obviously 200 is a whole lore more than 50, but we have to bear in mind that we are not delaying contagion for nearly a full duration, so next we will figure out exactly how much we delay contagion by using this different opening. For the purposes of making this simple to read, and bearing in mind how summoner itemisation goes in the first place, we will assume we have 0 spell speed on gear (sure would be wonderful if that was true, eh?).
Note that I have intentionally removed fester from both of these, as both rotations time them when using instant casts, so they have no bearing on these calculations.
The original rotation goes: Bio 2 -> Miasma -> Bio -> Swiftcast Shadowflare -> Contagion
Meaning contagion occurs roughly 7.5 seconds into your rotation.
The rotation I mentioned goes: Bio 1 -> Bio 2 -> Miasma -> Swiftcast Shadowflare -> Ruin -> Ruin -> Bio -> Contagion
Meaning contagion occurs roughly 17.5 seconds into the fight, so we're delaying contagion by roughly 10 seconds.
Contagion has a 60 seconds cooldown, so this means we're delaying contagion by 16.66% of a cast. 16.66% of 200 being 33. So our delay of contagion makes us drop up to 33 potency, in favor of gaining 50, for a bonus of ~17. Its not a big difference, but I like to min/max and it just struck me as odd. Also sorry for the long rant in an attempt to argue against my own point, heh.
TLDR: Rotation I suggested has very slightly higher potency.
In an attempt to drag myself back on the t7 topic, do you know if your group wants you to do the stacking method for Renauds (get 4 in position for healers to freeze all at once and then just be done kiting) or keep them up one at a time? Both have pros and cons, but tips and help we can give is depending on which you're doing. -
08-18-2014, 07:54 PMIlla
Ruin 2 is truly the biggest waste of MP to use while you're not on the go. I understand that this advice may have been given in hopes of assisting the OP with T7 kiting, but the kiter is not always kiting. Ruin 2 should be used impromptu of the caster-- meaning you need to make a proper judgment call on using it, since it does cost 80% more MP to cast it than simply casting Ruin 1. I should also note that they do the same exact damage, since the potency of the two abilities are identical. You should also note that the amount of DPS gain from casting Ruin 2 over Ruin 1 is completely marginal (roughly 1-2% more dps across a long fight). IF you are receiving Mage's Ballad often enough, then casting Ruin 2 in your main rotation can be okay, but if your Bard dies at all, then that too will be subject to change, since the Bard will no longer have the necessary MP to cast the ability... Overall, good advice though.
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08-18-2014, 07:58 PMIlla
All DPS classes use a set of priorities to deal the most efficient damage in any given situation. SMN is really not that hard to play. Just don't let your DoTs fall off your target(s), manage your pet properly and know the fights. The difference between an amazing SMN and an average one is how well he/she can manage their pets and keep their DoTs up on their target(s). Knowing your class is half the battle and knowing the fight is the other.
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08-19-2014, 02:05 AMHavenchildContrary to popular belief, proper use of Ruin II is a pretty big increase to your overall damage. Between weaving them in between GCD's and using them before Festers, both add up quite a lot on pretty much every fight. Of course you shouldn't be spamming the skill. To pick up the Renauds, it's probably the fastest thing you can do to shorten the margin of error associated from other people near a Renaud spawn. For example : AoEs going off at a bad time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illa
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08-19-2014, 03:11 AMHavenchildMy rotation:Quote:
Originally Posted by Malusion
Bio 2-> Miasma -> Bio -> Fester -> Miasma II -> Contagion + Swiftcast/ Shadowflare -> Ruin II -> Ruin II -> Fester -> Ruin II (Raging Falls off)
Yours:
Bio 1 -> Bio 2 -> Miasma -> Fester -> Swiftcast Shadowflare -> Ruin -> Ruin -> Bio -> Fester -> Contagion (Raging Falls off)
I'm getting a Ruin and a Miasma II over you in a given Raging Strikes rotation. That's not including the way I use Pet skills to buffer the delay of a DoT such as Bio appearing before Fester. -
08-19-2014, 06:44 AMMalusionThat's a differentiation because I was writing in a hurry before leaving for a flight, and accidentally wrote Ifrit opening rotation instead, hence why I left Miasma 2 out, not to mention forgetting a GCD entirely, obviously both will have as many GCDs available in total on the rotation, seeing as both put off GCD stuff next to instant casts.. I should have written:Quote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
Bio 1 -> Bio 2 -> Miasma -> Fester -> Swiftcast Shadowflare -> Ruin -> Miasma 2 -> Bio -> Fester -> Contagion -> Ruin
I should account for the difference of a full bio with raging strikes duration compared to a ruin, though, but as I am currently away from the computer that can actually run the game I am unable to do anything in depth. For a while my ability to even remain on the internet will be limited, so I'll have to just drop the discussion entirely for now. -
08-19-2014, 07:22 AMMjytresz
30 points in Intel
Cast DoTs
Cast Fester
Is Fester off CD? Fester again
Are DoTs about to wear off? Reapply
Spam Ruin
Now you're a professional. -
08-19-2014, 07:38 AMDwillNice attempt at cleverness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjytresz
Should read as "Now you're the run of the mill summoner that's near the bottom of the meter." -
08-19-2014, 10:13 AMArdanThe day you give helpful advice to new SMNs is the same day I become the Pope. If you can't give constructive tips don't even bother posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjytresz
On topic: My rotation to start fights is this:
Raging Strikes > Bio 2 > Miasma > Bio > Fester > Contaion > Swiftcast Shadow Flare > Rouse > Ruin II > Spur > Ruin II > Enkindle > Fester
Refresh DoTs as necessary and recast Shadowflare when it's down. Weave Ruin II before Festers for extra damage when MP allows it. Use Rouse/Spur when they're ready, save them if the enemy will be off screen and can't be damaged. -
08-19-2014, 02:58 PMPuwarh
I think start with Bio1 is a bit lost because it cast instance and you would have to wait for GCD after that but if you cast bio2 or miasma before you can instance cast bio1. So for the 3 main dots I would prefer Bio2>Miasma>Bio1 that should save you 1.5 sec. Anyway Bio2 before miasma or miasma before bio2 is still controversy to me because miasma and bio2 have the same damage at the start but if is situation where adds not allow to claw from point A to B, I would but miasma up first since it can slow adds then bio2
And SCH can put out a very nice damage too in not oh-shit moment with Cleric stance too, if you pay attention only for DoT things around. So if you would like to go full SMN you have to study to make use of garuda and fester 2 things that make SMN do seriously more damage than SCH
Ruin2 has high MP consumption but as I playing around with ruin 2 and manage AF I find It's not really the problem at all, you would finish the dungeon with 3/4 mp left or 1/4 left is really not to be worried, but if the fight dragging for very long you may considered Ruin1 instated. Anyway the real advantage of Ruin2 is mobility since it has no cast time you can run around like ADHD kid (and like those BRD, too) and it's a ruin of choice when it comes to very high mobility fight like Titan
The skill that would drain your mp more quickly would be blizzard2 when you use on mob because we don't have the mp recharger stacks like BLM so you would like to use it in moderation (may still manageable even you just spam them out).
Another thing is about Fester. Fester CD is 10 secs but your AF will come every 1 mins so, you may want to do some managing on this too, or you will be run out of stack with 30 sec to wait. If you find that your target would die in less than 15-20 secs after your first feaster, you may consider not to use fester again on that target and in some fight you have to spam fester as much as possible like the meteor fall in ST last boss The most feaster you can spam out will be 6 if the AF cool down complete without using any stack.
And all this may not make you "king summoner the great" but would make you life a bit easier. :) You may find more things out in the field so call out your pet, try kick some asses and may be you would make a better SMN than anybody else! -
08-19-2014, 05:08 PMZoeila
i just started testing this but i'm curious why more people dont use potent poison pots in their rotation? or at least in specialized situations. i include miasma 2 in my rotation when contagion is up so i already have to get close and it fills the gap between bio and miasma 2. plus its 50 dmg/tic and is effected by contagion and off gcd.
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08-19-2014, 07:22 PMHavenchildI use them on certain single target boss fights. But I didn't feel it was worth mentioning in a skill rotation. It is largely only beneficial on mobs with high HP, as the pot scales with the HP of the mob it's used on. The best time I would say to use it is after a Miasma II.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoeila
You can fit in Miasma II before that contagion and it shouldn't affect anything else, as well as get a Ruin 2 off before losing Raging Strikes after that second Fester. You will need slightly over 400 SS though for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardan
The strongest opening rotation for a single target is:
Rotation 1: Raging Strikes > Intelligence Pot (if using) > Bio 2 (During this cast make sure to set up Auto-Attack on enemy) > Miasma > Bio > Fester > Miasma II > Contagion > Swiftcast Shadow Flare > Rouse > Ruin II > Spur > Ruin II > Enkindle > Fester > Ruin II (Raging Strikes Falls off)
or:
Rotation 2: Raging Strikes > Intelligence Pot (if using) > Bio 2 (During this cast make sure to set up Auto-Attack on enemy) > Miasma > Bio > Rouse > Fester > Miasma II > Potent Poison Potion (If using) > Contagion > Swiftcast Shadow Flare > Spur > Ruin II > Enkindle > Ruin II > Fester > Ruin II (Raging Strikes Falls off)
The problem is Rouse. If you want to make sure everything is up & you want that last Ruin II, you need to use Rouse immediately after Bio then change the ending after Shadow Flare to -> Spur -> Ruin II -> Enkindle -> Ruin II -> Fester -> Ruin II, otherwise you'll struggle to get that last Ruin II off, if you use a poison pot.
If you don't use a poison pot then, use rotation 1.
If you do, use rotation 2.
If there's a close by AoE situation like the first Dread on T8 or the dragon right after the first heavensfall, it would be best to pluck out Rouse/Spur/ Enkindle in that opening rotation and use those in a following rotation between Ruin II's. -
08-20-2014, 02:54 AMArdanBah, I forgot to put in Miasma II. I use it with Contagion, I swear. :xQuote:
Originally Posted by Havenchild
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08-20-2014, 04:48 AMMjytreszPot, meet kettle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardan
Want good advice? Main BLM.
Oh wait, I must've forgotten that no dungeon, instance, or trial has trash mobs that take up more than half the run. -
08-20-2014, 06:19 AMSkeith-Adeline
...? What's wrong with maining BLM? Not dropping under 400 is fine for a BLM lol
Anywhoo, I'm trying to memorize the rotations and this is my rotation at the moment. They aren't optimal, but the Ps4 isn't friendly towards Pet hotbars
Bio 2, Miasma, Bio, Rouse, Contagion, Fester, Swiftcast Shadow Flare, Reapplying all DoTs, Fester, Ruin 2, Rouse, Enkindle.
My Raging Strikes doesn't last because I fumble everythign around. Remember, I started using SMN AFTER I reached level 50 so I have much to learn. -
08-20-2014, 07:14 AMPenelopeWinn(ps3 here) I for one don't use pet hot bars, I take the skills and put them in with my own. if your using the l2 +r2 hot bar options then you have access to 32 skills without ever technically switching bars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline
Also for your rotation you say you contagion your dots -> fester -> sc shadow flare -> then reapply.
there is no point in reapplying at that time due to the fact you just used contagion (or maybe im misunderstanding) -
08-20-2014, 05:10 PMPanteleon
I still don't understand why people don't lead with Miasma instead of Bio II. When you go Miasma -> Bio II -> Bio -> Bane, then the Miasma and Bio drop off at essentially the same time (assuming you start reapplying in the same M/B II/B I fashion once Bio I hits 5sec on the counter). Therefore, it simplifies the reapplication and Bane-ing process for multiple targets and allows you not to miss a tick of damage across multiple targets.
So... when I'm planning to Bane, I always lead with Miasma.
Even when I'm doing a single target rotation, I always lead with Miasma. Between Festers and reapplication of the DoTs as the time comes (in matched groups; i.e. Miasma/Bio I at the same time followed variably by Festers, restarted Bio II's, then again restarted Miasma/Bio I), you end up with all DoT's dropping at the same time after the third cycle, meaning you cleanly restart your applications.
Is there something I'm missing about the value of leading with Bio II?
EDIT: Also, to the person with the intriguing idea of fitting two Bio I's into a Raging Strikes cycle... do you find that putting Fester right after the Miasma intermittently drops the Fester potency by 2/3's? I usually have to wait ~3/4 of a GCD after casting Bio (in a Miasma/Bio II/Bio I cycle) to be sure the DoT is applied so that Fester is at full potency (the Bio I doesn't seem to register right away). Basically, I wait toward the end of the GCD then apply Fester just before the next action starts (so there's no slow-down of the cycle, but also no loss of Fester potency). -
08-20-2014, 09:11 PMDwillThats the thing, you don't want them to fall at the same time since they always have to be rolling. Your DoTs should never be falling off when starting with Bio II and there are enough things to do to make sure you have zero downtime during a whole encounter with your DoTs having a near 100% uptime (minus certain Boss phases where they disappear/are untargetable).Quote:
Originally Posted by Panteleon