I need SMN help! (Rotations, point allowance)

[Skeith-Adeline]

I just hit level 50 yesterday on my SCH, and my raid group notified me that they'd like me to SMN T7 (so I can kite renauds). I'm SMN ilvl 105 (thanks to BLM being my main and a few stashed rowena primal tokens)

I've rarely touched SMN. In fact, I still haven't acquired Garuda lol.

My points were allocated to Mind.... what should they be now?
Also, I've no idea what to do for rotations. This is what I do (lacking 45 and 50 job abilities):

Bio, Bio 2, Miasma, Bio (it runs low at that point), Rouse, Fester, Swiftcast Shadow Flare, Raging Strikes, Ruin 1 spam while watching DoTs and reapplying when needed. I also use the other 2 Aetherflows to Ruin 1, Ruin 2, Energy Drain, Ruin 1, Ruin 2, Energy Drain before I reset.

[Havenchild]

I just hit level 50 yesterday on my SCH, and my raid group notified me that they'd like me to SMN T7 (so I can kite renauds). I'm SMN ilvl 105 (thanks to BLM being my main and a few stashed rowena primal tokens)

I've rarely touched SMN. In fact, I still haven't acquired Garuda lol.

My points were allocated to Mind.... what should they be now?
Also, I've no idea what to do for rotations. This is what I do (lacking 45 and 50 job abilities):

Bio, Bio 2, Miasma, Bio (it runs low at that point), Rouse, Fester, Swiftcast Shadow Flare, Raging Strikes, Ruin 1 spam while watching DoTs and reapplying when needed. I also use the other 2 Aetherflows to Ruin 1, Ruin 2, Energy Drain, Ruin 1, Ruin 2, Energy Drain before I reset.

Forgive me, but that's a pretty bad rotation you got there.

Its hard to give you advice for this situation. You solely intend on doing T7 as a summoner im guessing? To be honest, respecing your mind for int is pointless. Since you can basically do the same thing on SCH as a Summoner can if your handling Renauds. Simply go Cleric Stance, use Ruin II to pick up a Renaud and Miasma it in place. Keep DoTs up on Boss and Adds, Swift Shadowflares, Ruin I Spam.

If your being forced to go Summoner full time, then you might as well respec for INT then, Get Garuda and finish your class quests.
If not full time just forget the INT respec, I suppose if your still SCH for the other turns.

My personal best DPS opening rotation for single target,

Raging Strikes (Pot after this if you intend to) -> Bio II -> Miasma (Move towards boss as this is finishing cast) -> Bio =>> Rouse (Immediately Rouse before you even see this DoT appear since this is the slowest DoT and your on GCD, also to filler movement to the boss) -> Fester -> Miasma II (Poison Pot after this if you intend on using it) -> Tap Contagion (Pet skill) and Swiftcast at the same time, Contagion First -> Shadow Flare -> Spur -> Ruin 2 -> Enkindle -> Ruin 2 till Fester is back up -> Fester -> Ruin 2 (Raging Strikes falls off) ->

You can also use Rouse later after you cast Shadow Flare like (Shadow Flare-> Rouse -> Ruin II -> Spur -> Ruin II -> Enkindle -> Ruin II or Fester (Fester takes priority if its up, if not Ruin II then Fester) -> Ruin II) - but you have a good chance of missing that last Ruin II before Raging Strikes falls off without enough SS.

I personally use the Rouse after I cast Bio because I feel that delay in between casting Bio and the ailment appearing on the monster, can throw you off sometimes with timing that Fester ASAP. With my way, once the animation is done from Rouse, Bio is already up on the mob so I can just Fester immediately with no timing flaw associated with it.

After that opening, the rest of the fight is keeping up DoTs, trying not to clip them too early and grouping skills together like Contagion + Miasma II, using your off-GCD skills when able during a GCD.

You can do that entire opening rotation before the first Renaud spawns and before the fireballs are sent out for range characters. Past that though, just keep Dots on the adds and your Renaud duties take precedence.

[Skeith-Adeline]

It's okay haha! I'm really new to SMN

[Skeith-Adeline]

Oh lord that is much more complicated than BLM rotations.
Hm... If it makes any difference, I am on Ps4 so many of the actions might be a tad bit delayed thanks to switching hotbars.

I'm probably going to SMN T6 and T7 since I don't trust my DPS in T6.

[lordparanoia]

Your rotation should be:
Raging strikes
Bio2
Miasma
Bio
Swiftcast shadowflare
Contagion
Fester
Spam Ruin/ruin2
Fester
Raging strikes goes off
Then u continue with Ruin until you need to refresh your dots. Use fester and refresh aetherflow.
Use rouse+spur (not in gcd) when possibile and depending on how much damage you need to do use Enkindle (for example when u need to push dps rouse/spur/Enkindle is powerful).
In t7: keep Garuda on Melusine or it will kill the renauds. Refresh your dots and fester melusine and the Lamias.
Take the renaud with ruin2 and when they are in position use miasma. Then, focus again on Melusine or the adds.


Remember that the potency of your dots is influenced by the buff you have before you cast them. If you need to use a x potion of intelligence be sure that u have contagion up.

[Malusion]

So I've been wondering a while on the opening rotation, why do people insist on starting with bio 2? Seems to me its better to go like this single target:

Bio 1 -> Bio 2 -> Miasma (has lower time to be registered as up for fester than bio and bio 2, so you can fester faster) -> Fester -> Swiftcast Shadowflare -> Ruin -> Ruin -> Bio -> Fester -> Contagion

This way you'll get 2 full bio durations outside of the contagion boost, both with raging strikes up. In addition its generally better to start with your highest potency per tick dot as a rule of thumb. You get roughly 45-50 more potency out of your opening rotation like that.

Edit: Actually, I guess the argument is people don't want to delay contagion by waiting the first bio out, so I will take the time to do the maths of that opening's increased potency vs potency lost by holding contagion for a bit!

So the delayed contagion will be without raging strikes, since you'll be able to get raging strikes off and have contagion back in time to extend those buffs on the third one. I will also assume that this is a scenario where you can maintain dots even without contagion, though that does admittedly make it slightly off topic for a thread on kiting renauds as SMN, though it is relevant to t6!

In this case, the bonus damage from a contagion adds nothing to your 3 main dots, as you'd refresh those manually anyway, and as such the bonus potency is nearly completely gained from extra Ruin casts from the saved GCDs, so lets figure out just how many ruins we can cast as a bonus from one contagion.

Contagion obviously extends the dot timers by 15 seconds per dot, so we can say that the extra time to cast ruins gained is equivalent to how much of the dot 15 seconds amounts to. If I am speaking a bit weirdly, it is because I am not a native speaker, so apologies. For an example: Bio 2 has a 30 second duration, so contagion's 15 second boost amounts to 50% of the total duration of a bio 2, and as such nets you an extra 0.5 GCDs worth of ruin, or 40 potency. By this logic we can quickly figure out what the saved GCDs of each dot is.

15 seconds is:
83.33% of Bio 1 (18 total)
62.5% of Miasma (24 total)
50% of Bio 2 (30 total)

Thus a contagion without any buffs nets us a grand total of 1.958 GCDs, but for simplicity's sake, lets round that up to 2, making an unbuffed contagion a grand total of 160 bonus potency above your regular rotation, before adding in miasma 2.

Miasma 2 is obviously a different beast entirely, as it wouldn't be used without contagion due to only having a base total potency of 70. Adding another 15 seconds, or 5 ticks, makes that 120, or a bonus potency of 40, since you have to detract the potency of the ruin you are choosing not to cast by casting miasma 2. This means contagion without raging strikes has a total bonus potency of 200.

Now if that was the end of it, obviously 200 is a whole lore more than 50, but we have to bear in mind that we are not delaying contagion for nearly a full duration, so next we will figure out exactly how much we delay contagion by using this different opening. For the purposes of making this simple to read, and bearing in mind how summoner itemisation goes in the first place, we will assume we have 0 spell speed on gear (sure would be wonderful if that was true, eh?).

Note that I have intentionally removed fester from both of these, as both rotations time them when using instant casts, so they have no bearing on these calculations.
The original rotation goes: Bio 2 -> Miasma -> Bio -> Swiftcast Shadowflare -> Contagion
Meaning contagion occurs roughly 7.5 seconds into your rotation.

The rotation I mentioned goes: Bio 1 -> Bio 2 -> Miasma -> Swiftcast Shadowflare -> Ruin -> Ruin -> Bio -> Contagion
Meaning contagion occurs roughly 17.5 seconds into the fight, so we're delaying contagion by roughly 10 seconds.

Contagion has a 60 seconds cooldown, so this means we're delaying contagion by 16.66% of a cast. 16.66% of 200 being 33. So our delay of contagion makes us drop up to 33 potency, in favor of gaining 50, for a bonus of ~17. Its not a big difference, but I like to min/max and it just struck me as odd. Also sorry for the long rant in an attempt to argue against my own point, heh.

TLDR: Rotation I suggested has very slightly higher potency.



In an attempt to drag myself back on the t7 topic, do you know if your group wants you to do the stacking method for Renauds (get 4 in position for healers to freeze all at once and then just be done kiting) or keep them up one at a time? Both have pros and cons, but tips and help we can give is depending on which you're doing.

[Illa]

Ruin 2 is truly the biggest waste of MP to use while you're not on the go. I understand that this advice may have been given in hopes of assisting the OP with T7 kiting, but the kiter is not always kiting. Ruin 2 should be used impromptu of the caster-- meaning you need to make a proper judgment call on using it, since it does cost 80% more MP to cast it than simply casting Ruin 1. I should also note that they do the same exact damage, since the potency of the two abilities are identical. You should also note that the amount of DPS gain from casting Ruin 2 over Ruin 1 is completely marginal (roughly 1-2% more dps across a long fight). IF you are receiving Mage's Ballad often enough, then casting Ruin 2 in your main rotation can be okay, but if your Bard dies at all, then that too will be subject to change, since the Bard will no longer have the necessary MP to cast the ability... Overall, good advice though.

[Illa]

All DPS classes use a set of priorities to deal the most efficient damage in any given situation. SMN is really not that hard to play. Just don't let your DoTs fall off your target(s), manage your pet properly and know the fights. The difference between an amazing SMN and an average one is how well he/she can manage their pets and keep their DoTs up on their target(s). Knowing your class is half the battle and knowing the fight is the other.

[Havenchild]

Ruin 2 is truly the biggest waste of MP to use while you're not on the go. I understand that this advice may have been given in hopes of assisting the OP with T7 kiting, but the kiter is not always kiting. Ruin 2 should be used impromptu of the caster-- meaning you need to make a proper judgment call on using it, since it does cost 80% more MP to cast it than simply casting Ruin 1. I should also note that they do the same exact damage, since the potency of the two abilities are identical. You should also note that the amount of DPS gain from casting Ruin 2 over Ruin 1 is completely marginal (roughly 1-2% more dps across a long fight). IF you are receiving Mage's Ballad often enough, then casting Ruin 2 in your main rotation can be okay, but if your Bard dies at all, then that too will be subject to change, since the Bard will no longer have the necessary MP to cast the ability... Overall, good advice though.

Contrary to popular belief, proper use of Ruin II is a pretty big increase to your overall damage. Between weaving them in between GCD's and using them before Festers, both add up quite a lot on pretty much every fight. Of course you shouldn't be spamming the skill. To pick up the Renauds, it's probably the fastest thing you can do to shorten the margin of error associated from other people near a Renaud spawn. For example : AoEs going off at a bad time.

[Havenchild]

snip

My rotation:

Bio 2-> Miasma -> Bio -> Fester -> Miasma II -> Contagion + Swiftcast/ Shadowflare -> Ruin II -> Ruin II -> Fester -> Ruin II (Raging Falls off)

Yours:
Bio 1 -> Bio 2 -> Miasma -> Fester -> Swiftcast Shadowflare -> Ruin -> Ruin -> Bio -> Fester -> Contagion (Raging Falls off)

I'm getting a Ruin and a Miasma II over you in a given Raging Strikes rotation. That's not including the way I use Pet skills to buffer the delay of a DoT such as Bio appearing before Fester.