Difference between Elementals and Sprites (1.0 to 2.0)

This has been bugging me since the alpha of ARR. To start in the alpha, the sprites we saw then looked just like the elementals from 1.0, however they then changed to their current form we have now (like the elementals from FFXI, being a mass of elemental energy/aether). So why were they changed from the 1.0 elemental look to their current form?

And are there any distinctions on the differences of both elementals and sprites? I remember, if I do recall correctly, that there is a 1.0 elemental that appears during the WHM quest line for ARR.

Not the WHM questline, but it's the level 25 CNJ quest line where two 'fairy' type elementals appear to help the player. It basically shows that the 'proper' elementals have gone quiet following the Calamity, and that the FFXI-style 'sprites' now commonly seen are just formless elementally-aspected aetherial energy created as a result of the Calamity which have no actual connection to the fairy-style elementals. So yeah, the two types are mutually distinct.

I formed the same conclusion as Enkidoh, though it would be nice to know a little bit about their taxonomy. As far as I can tell, they're not Ashkin (undead), Beastkin (mammalians), Cloudkin (avians), Forgekin (machines), Scalekin (reptilians), Seedkin (plants), Soulkin (cursed), Spoken (bipedal sentients), Vilekin (insects), Voidsent (not-of-hydaelyn) or Wavekin (aquans; assuming both fish and amphibians).

My theory is that there's a twelfth Kindred for aetherial entities such as sprites, elementals, and primals. It would be a second class in the Transcendent kingdom, except instead of coming from the World of Darkness (the Void), they would come from the aetherial realm, fitting both with Minfilia's powerpoint presentation from this patch as well as the recurring instances of the number twelve, which is as prominent in Final Fantasy as it is in the real world.

Still hoping for clarification on that one.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Not the WHM questline, but it's the level 25 CNJ quest line where two 'fairy' type elementals appear to help the player. It basically shows that the 'proper' elementals have gone quiet following the Calamity, and that the FFXI-style 'sprites' now commonly seen are just formless elementally-aspected aetherial energy created as a result of the Calamity which have no actual connection to the fairy-style elementals. So yeah, the two types are mutually distinct.

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Given the appearance of the Elementals, what I really want to know is how they're related to SCH Eos/Selene arcanima.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Given the appearance of the Elementals, what I really want to know is how they're related to SCH Eos/Selene arcanima.

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Heeey! This old thread! :D

Since this thread died, we've learned a lot. There is a 12th Kindred for the Elementals, the game was just didn't say it in a way that made it clear that elementals are part of the Elementals, same as sprites, primals, and arcanima constructs. Aether is the building block of the corporeal world and there are ways that it can manifest as an apparent entity outside of biological processes, though they don't all qualify as what one might call alive in a spiritual sense. Sprites seem to just arise when there's a lot of aetherial energy in a place, and they have little discernible intelligence. The winged elementals, however, seem to be old and wise - though exactly what they are is mysterious. Are they just old sprites? Or did belief once shape them? Were they created by a past civilization? Who knows!

Primals are manifested through rituals involving crystals and prayer.

Carbuncles are temporary beings created using raw mathematics; arcane geometry outlines the shape and behavior of the construct created by the arcanist.

Egi are quite similar, but tap into primal essences the arcanist has overcome and can bend to their will.

Fairies are a unique twist on these creations, however. Instead of being summoned anew each time, the fairy's essence is bound to a scholar's soul crystal once created. Its memories, like the scholars, flow through the crystal. Therefore, unlike carbuncle, each fairy gains experience and develops a personality. If the crystal is passed to another scholar, so might the fairy.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The winged elementals, however, seem to be old and wise - though exactly what they are is mysterious. Are they just old sprites? Or did belief once shape them? Were they created by a past civilization? Who knows!

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They seem similar to Midgardsormr to me... The Guardian of Silvertear Falls. The Guardians of the Twelveswood. Heck, you could even argue there are parallels between Gridanian/Elementals history and the current situation in Ishgard... The intro to both games also has a slight connection; 1.0, the Battle of Silvertear Skies puts Midgardsormr out of action. 2.0, the Calamity is frequently mentioned as having completely weakened the Elementals.

I'm fully expecting we'll get a future plot line dealing with the Twelveswood and Elementals, no doubt an Ascian named Halmarut, and Krile finally making an appearance. Lots of obvious connections I can't see them not making ever since dropping the Krile bomb....

The elementals have a much weaker presence since the calamity in the black shroud so I think to fit this in they made it so there are no elemental mobs to fit in with the more.
The sprits are probably more of a mutation caused by imbalance in crystals.

The elementals are the guardians of the Shroud they dictate what game is ok to hunt what trees may be cut down what palaces people are and not allowed to be and the biggest thing that why lots of people outside of Gridania don't like or care for them is who is and isn't permitted to live in the Shroud this has caused problems for people from Almahigo who fled hopping to find safety only to be turned away and they receive no aid despite every thing they went thru. there are even a few npcs at the conjure guild who want one of them to help heal a sick girl only to be told it is the elementals will that they don't.

This is how much power they hold in the Shroud and to anger them is to cause big problems.

Personally I don't hold any stock in "The Elementals" and their "almighty" power. I've long held that the Elementals and Primals are similar to each other or are the same thing entirely. Though my theory on them being one and the same was debunked by the Lore Team they still are similar enough to question their integrity. The Whole "Follow us or be destroyed" thing seems very primal-ish to me and I've started to not trust things with "God Like" power that never have their authority questioned. (The Elementals, The Primals, and The Ishgaurdian Archbishop to name but a few)

So it seems to me that at least some of the elementals are very picky about who's allowed to live and who must die in the Twelves Wood and it seems very odd to me that "The Greenwrath" only seems to be fear by the Gridanians that actually follow the elementals. After all how many times do we see Trents and Gobus storming The Courulclaw Nest and Red Belly Hive because the poachers have invoked "The Green Wrath" by disobeying the law of the Elementals?

Since that answer is Zero then I'm calling BS on this "Elemental" crap and saying that there's something more at work there than some over powered wood pixies that control the forest. For ex. People get sick and die and it's blamed on "The Greenwrath" but on the other hand the conjurors who could heal them "Aren't Allowed" to heal them because "The Elementals said so". And who do the Elementals not like? The Miqo'te, The Ixal, The Ala'mhigans, and outsiders in general. Sounds like a cloak and dagger version of Lord Lolorito's "Let the outsiders starve in the desert for all I care" very explicit prejudice against Non-Ul'dahens.

And don't even get me started on how no one other than "Hearers" can actually tell what the Elementals are saying. Not even us Echo Users and we can understand ALL languages that are spoken. So this obviously means that the Elementals aren't "Speaking" in a physical audio sense.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

And don't even get me started on how no one other than "Hearers" can actually tell what the Elementals are saying. <...> the Elementals aren't "Speaking" in a physical audio sense.

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While some elementals truly are the large, fairy-looking, sentient beings that speak clearly (WHM storyline 1.0 and ARR), my theory is that, sometimes, "hearing the elementals" is akin to a psychic sensation that arises from interacting with the aether present in literally anything corporeal.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

So it seems to me that at least some of the elementals are very picky about who's allowed to live and who must die in the Twelves Wood

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They seem to demand balance above all else; anything that upsets equilibrium of the wood's overall health even in a way that is subjective to them makes them angry. We've seen that "younger" elementals are quicker to anger and more indiscriminate about unleashing it, which leads me to believe that they may actually just be very old and experienced sprites - but working with usually turns out pretty well for Gridania, but that need not mean they're in any way divine.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

After all how many times do we see Trents and Gobus storming The Courulclaw Nest and Red Belly Hive because the poachers have invoked "The Green Wrath" by disobeying the law of the Elementals?

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I'm not sure if you've done the WHM story arc of ARR, but, essentially, the elementals have grown too weak to be anything like they once were. Still, everything that's happened since the start of the game (from poaches to the Ixal assault on the Guardian Tree) finally has them enraged enough to summon the strength needed to lash out, and the Seedseers let you join in on pacifying the greenwrath.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

I'm calling BS on this "Elemental" crap and saying that there's something more at work there than some over powered wood pixies that control the forest.

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Given what we know, this could be an accurate (albeit cynically framed) interpretation, but I wouldn't shout it out loud while burning a tree.

Well Moose Sensei I've only completed Whm's lvl 35 quest so I haven't seen an elemental yet. And as far as my bias against them.... well lets just say I started 1.0 in Ul'dah and didn't go to Gridania until 2.0 when I became a Lancer. So I have more than a few negative thoughts in regard to the Gridanians obsession with them. The Elementals are apparently real things because they have been seen before. I'm just wondering where to draw the line on "The Elementals did it/said to do it" and "I'm going to blame the Elementals because I couldn't care less about (Insert Subject Here)".

As an Ul'dahen I've seen The Syndicate, The Thaumaturges, and even random NPCs do things because "Nald'Thal says so" when the only power that runs Ul'dah is Gil and who ever has the most of it.
Top it off with Ishgaurd using Halone's "Teachings" as an excuse to persecute people who disagree with their war on Dravania and I'm reasonably sceptical about so called "Teachings" that not only permit but Promote and Encourage the abuse of Political power.

Oh How I'd love an expansion for Gridania's story that revealed the "Dark Underbelly" of Gridania's society just like 2.3-2.5 have been blowing some whistles on Ul'dah's corruption.

If you're up to the level 35 WHM quest then you would have seen elementals long before then - two show up during the level 25 CNJ class quest fight to assist you in the battle. But as Moose has stated, although the elemental power over the Black Shroud has weakened considerably due to the Calamity, it is still an extremely potent and dangerous force that could claim the lives of everyone who resides there. The only 'dark underbelly' of Gridania is the illegal poaching and hunting going on, and most that is done by desperate people who were refused permission to live within.

Everything that Gridania's government does, has to be run past the elementals first - ultimately they're the ones who have the final say. And, as shown in the video Moose linked, a seemingly innocuous action like burning a tree down can soon change one's mind about whether the elementals exist or not (as Krhimm found out the hard way. ;)).

I didn't see any elementals in the 25 CNJ quest. I saw 3 corrupted sprites that I had to purify with the assistance of Sylphie. Then Sylphie and I blasted that voidsent back to the 7th hell with our Conjury at Lvl 30.

But as you stated, the poachers are doing whats needed to survive. They face a paradox, poach and MAYBE be killed by the elementals or don't and DEFINITELY starve to death in the Twelves Wood. So I really don't see that as malevolent as the attempts by the monetarists to usurp the rule of Nannamo who is one of the only people that actually cares what happens to Ul'dah's people.

I'm currently under the idea that most people, Kan'E Senna, her Siblings, and E'sumi being amongst them, are genuinely trying to protect all the people of the Twelves Wood by maintaining peace with the supernatural beings that could destroy them all with one temper tantrum. What I'm more concerned about is how many Gridanians are actually using the "Laws" as an excuse to abuse their power and authority?

Maybe there aren't any but I've seen a few already that are very questionable in their reasonings to turn away outsiders. Buscarion actually maintains peace (For lack of a better word) with the Claw and Redbelly poachers AND doesn't seem to be out of line with the Wood Wailers or Elementals. So it stands to reason that there's some personal prejudice that may be invoking banishment that has nothing to do with the elementals. Thus the BIG question, what exactly ARE the elemental's "Laws" since the hearers are the only ones that can communicate with them. And how many of Gridania's Laws were written that have nothing to do with the elementals and are simply harsh for the sake of "Purity of the Woods"?

Oh, those elementals were definitely there - but then, I did that fight as a level 25 CNJ so it was far harder (and thus, the battle took much longer, thus the elementals that appear in that fight probably only appear in the fight if you don't defeat the enemy within a certain length of time). But they definitely appeared, as seen in the screenshot below (I apologize for the poor image - one green (wind?) elemental can barely be seen in the distance on the left partially obscured by the treant's limb, while the other blue (water?) one can be quite clearly seen to the right (near the minimap - I didn't have time to minimize the GUI when I took this screenshot):

http://i581.photobucket.com/albums/s...1b38ec_1_1.jpg

Oh I did remember seeing one then. For like.... half a second before my lvl 29 conjuror Stone 2ed it's last health point. I was more than a little OP for that fight. >_> Especially having all the Arcanist and Thaumaturge Cross Skills by then. Swiftcast and Virus really helped beat that tree down.

I had enough time to think "Wtf is that fairy thing?" then the Trent died and I was like "Huh, guess it doesn't really matter now."

Btw, when did you take that screen shot? I can't use Thunder 1 as any thing but a Thaumaturge and Black Mage now. (I vaguely recall being able to in Beta, and early 2.0)

Yeah, that was taken way back in September 2013, when Thunder could be cross-classed by ACN/SMN and CNJ/WHM - it was removed as a cross-class ability (becoming THM/BLM only) in the 2.1 patch in December 2013 and replaced as cross-classable with Blizzard II. So that shows you how old that screenshot is. ;)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Yeah, that was taken way back in September 2013, when Thunder could be cross-classed by ACN/SMN and CNJ/WHM - it was removed as a cross-class ability (becoming THM/BLM only) in the 2.1 patch in December 2013 and replaced as cross-classable with Blizzard II. So that shows you how old that screenshot is. ;)

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Dang. But to be fair, having that many DoTs would have made Conjuror Waaaaaaay OP in The Wolves' Den. And I still do an insane amount of DPS as a WHM with my "Chain Spell" technique, even with out cleric. (I hate Cleric Stance BTW. It gimps Scholar and White Mage and THE ONLY class that could properly benefit from it is Summoner. And it can't even cross Cleric Stance.)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

The only 'dark underbelly' of Gridania is the illegal poaching and hunting going on, and most that is done by desperate people who were refused permission to live within.

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Also their rampant anti-Duskwight racism. ;P

Elementals DO exist outside of the Black Shroud, don't they? They're just not as strong or as part of everyone's lives (and Hearers probably can't communicate with them as easily). I thought the sprite enemies confirmed this.

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Originally Posted by Baithin

Elementals DO exist outside of the Black Shroud, don't they? They're just not as strong or as part of everyone's lives (and Hearers probably can't communicate with them as easily). I thought the sprite enemies confirmed this.

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Yes that's what a towa cant did, he traveled the world to commune with elementals till he got killed by kobolts. I think the elementals around the world are just significantly weak and unable to manifest themselves/their will. Even if they did they'll be killed on the spot, believing them to be some good sent creature.

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Originally Posted by Baithin

Elementals DO exist outside of the Black Shroud, don't they?

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If the hearers are to be believed, they exist in everything. During the fall of the Sixth Astral Era, one was even able to "commune with the elementals" within a sheet of paper and the ink upon it to divine a small amount of information about who once carried it. Less intriguing but more concrete, in 1.0, elementals existed all over the place, natively, dependent on the dominant elements in an area; water and lightning elementals within Cassieopea Hollow in La Noscea, for instance. (I miss you, open-world cave zones... <pours some rolanberry red on the ground>)

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Originally Posted by Baithin

Elementals DO exist outside of the Black Shroud, don't they? They're just not as strong or as part of everyone's lives (and Hearers probably can't communicate with them as easily). I thought the sprite enemies confirmed this.

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Yes, that's correct Baithin - elementals exist in all nature - they are just more potent in the Black Shroud than anywhere else for some reason that has never been really explained. And as Moose stated, there are mages that specialize in communing with the elementals in some really obscure or esoteric objects - one CNJ at the CNJ's Guild in version 1.0 stated that belatedly his specialty is the elementals in trees, but that he really wished he could communicate with the elementals in metals and rocks:

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Originally Posted by version 1.0 npc Telent

"I've been listening to these damn trees for more summers you've seen. No one else can make sense of them, which I suppose is why they suffer me to stay. I always wanted to hear the elementals in steel and iron and bronze-metals, you know? Maybe earn myself a ride on one of them fancy Garlean airships. But nothing ever seems to work out the way we plan it."

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During the 1.0 Gridanian storyline Papalymo also confirms this, that elementals exist everywhere in nature:

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Originally Posted by version 1.0 Gridanian main scenario quest 'Souls Gone Wild'

Papalymo: "That's what I've been trying to tell you. There are elementals in all sorts of things. Rocks, rivers, flowers. They are the unifying force of this entire forest."
Yda: "Sooo, an elemental is like a gigantic, super-powerful person?"
Papalymo: "Really? Are you kidding? How have you made it this far in life? They are not to be thought of as individuals of any size, you dolt. Explain to me what part you don't understand."

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So elementals are like the Japanese concept of "kami".

Kind of off topic, but elementals are a real concept in our world, too. I have a picture that I took of a waterfall on the Virginia Creeper Trail in the eastern side of the U.S. When I uploaded the photo to Facebook, the website asked me who the face was in the picture. I looked at the photo closely, and there IS a face right in the waterfall. I'll upload the picture later.

Are you sure that's not just pareidolia at work in that instance? (I can't make a judgement without seeing this image in question, but the 'Scully' in me already writes this off as a simple optical illusion).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Are you sure that's not just pareidolia at work in that instance? (I can't make a judgement without seeing this image in question, but the 'Scully' in me already writes this off as a simple optical illusion).

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http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...psen5nfvyx.jpg There it is.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Oh, those elementals were definitely there - but then, I did that fight as a level 25 CNJ so it was far harder (and thus, the battle took much longer, thus the elementals that appear in that fight probably only appear in the fight if you don't defeat the enemy within a certain length of time). But they definitely appeared, as seen in the screenshot below (I apologize for the poor image - one green (wind?) elemental can barely be seen in the distance on the left partially obscured by the treant's limb, while the other blue (water?) one can be quite clearly seen to the right (near the minimap - I didn't have time to minimize the GUI when I took this screenshot):

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I'm disappointed that's the only time they show up. For beings that might as old as the dragons, they aren't having any story focus even in the quests of the class/job that communes with them.