How a slight change could open GLA for a future DPS job

Greetings,

Since the launch of FFXIV, my main class has always been Gladiator. Since I love the PLD, I was quite happy when the job was introduced. By I always hoped for a second job to be given to GLA, and, obviously, a DPS one. I'll use DRK as an example.
Thinking about it, I imagined how GLA could be changed to make it viable as a base for a DRK. What surprised me is how little change would be needed for it to work quite well (In my opinion)

The point is basically to transfer some GLA skills to PLD, namely Rampart and Sentinel, since they're only good for tanking, and transfer two PLD skills to GLA: the two Oath.
They could be renamed "Shield Stance" and "Sword Stance" if the "oath" term is too pendatic for GLA.
But, Sword Stance needed some changes, since, at low-level, it would be the main source of DRK's DPS. It could be the exact opposite of Shield Stance : More damage dealt, more damage received and less enmity.

Here's a chart to compare the existing GLA/PLD and a revamped one :
Gladiator
Existing
lvl1 Fast Blade
lvl2 Rampart
lvl4 Savage Blade
lvl6 Fight or Flight
lvl8 Flash
lvl10 Convalescence
lvl12 Riot Blade
lvl15 Shield Lob
lvl18 Shield Bash
lvl22 Provoke
lvl26 Rage Of Halone
lvl30 Shield Swipe
lvl34 Awareness
lvl38 Sentinel
lvl42 Tempered Will
lvl46 Bulwark
lvl50 Circle Of Scorn

Revamped
lvl1 Fast Blade
lvl2 Shield Stance
lvl4 Savage Blade
lvl6 Fight or Flight
lvl8 Flash
lvl10 Sword Stance
lvl12 Riot Blade
lvl15 Lob
lvl18 Bash
lvl22 Provoke
lvl26 Rage Of Halone
lvl30 Swipe
lvl34 Convalescence
lvl38 Awareness
lvl42 Tempered Will
lvl46 Bulwark
lvl50 Circle Of Scorn

As for PLD:
Existing
30 Sword Oath
35 Cover
40 Shield Oath
45 Spirits Within
50 Hallowed Ground

Revamped
30 Rampart
35 Cover
40 Sentinel
45 Spirits Within
50 Hallowed Ground

All skills based on "Shield" (Lob, Bash, Swipe) could be used with a two-handed sword, and we could replace Enhanced Rampart and Enhanced Sentinel by Enhanced Shield Stance and Enhanced Sword Stance (10% effect at start to 20% effect), although these traits would be learned sooner that Enhanced Sentinel.

As for stats, GLA would have higher Strength and less Vitality, since it would be designed around having Shied Stance to tank even at low-level.
PLD could remain the same.

Rampart and Sentinel are already usable by a PLD, and what use would Shield Oath be to a GLA DPS class? Since it reduces damage dealt

The point here is: If we have a DPS job, Rampart and Sentinel won't be usable by that job since they'd be PLD skills. Rampart is not that useful for low-level, and by the time you learn Sentinel, you're already playing PLD and not GLA anymore.
GLA would still be a tank class, so Shield Oath would help it tank, but if you do a low-level as a DRK, you'd use Sword Oath instead of Shield Oath to be a viable DPS.
By giving less pure tanking skills to GLA, it would be easier to branch to another role, with the help of modifiers from a DRK crystal job.

The best part is that PLD wouldn't really change at lvl50 from what we have now, apart from a more powerful Sword Oath, with a slight drawback.

You'd remove the emnity modifier from Shield Oath anyway. Which would make it similiar to Monk's Fists of Earth. It could work.

Without the enmity modifier, It'd be very difficult to tank at high level. Shield Oath could stay the same.
As a DRK, you just wouldn't use Shield Oath but Sword Oath. That's why both need to be before lvl10, to be sure you have them for Duty Finder (1st Guildhest at level 10)

I'm saying that you shouldn't be able to ”tank” as a DPS class. So you would lose the emnity modifier when you put on the Dark Knight job crystal.

Indeed, you "shouldn't" but not as "the sytem won't allow you" but as "You'd be stupid to do it".
If you queue as a DRK and all you do is Provoke everything in Shield Oath, you're just trolling, and you'll be kicked right away.

After all, all classes can equip Provoke. They just won't use it if they know how to play. Titan and Topaz Carbuncle also have good enmity modifier :p
Besides, since DRK would be a DPS, the party should have a "real" tank there.

You could also design DRK to only equip 2-handed swords, so that they won't have a shield to protect them, or give them lower vitatily...it's really easy to discourage DRK from tanking just because they could technically use Shield Oath ;)

I think it would be cool. Really hoping they add DRK... like, really, REALLY hoping :D

while not pertinent to this thread, the following quote made me laugh aloud

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There isn't a single good reason from a *developmental* standpoint for THF to be its own class if NIN is also implemented.

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The Thief is to the Ninja as the Archer is to the Bard. what could have possibly given you cause to believe otherwise?

As for the DRK, it'll be quite a long while before added. Don't hold your breath unless blue is a hue you wish to remain.

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Originally Posted by Luinne

The Thief is to the Ninja as the Archer is to the Bard. what could have possibly given you cause to believe otherwise?

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While my quote is old, it was long before Rogue was announced. It was a discussion about how Thief and Ninja in FFXIV would have the same role, basically the same attacks, and very little to differentiate them. I just haven't removed it yet in favour of a better one.

All this change would do is reduce GLA's glut of tank-focused abilities by 1; that's not enough, in my opinion.

Why you would want a DPS job for such a tank-focused class is beyond me.

It's more to give GLA a DPS focused ability. Careful stats allocation and slighty better weapons could complete a useful DPS at low-level. Past lvl30, job skills can be enough for any class to become a good DPS.
By the way, before lvl30, a revamped GLA would only have Shield Stance, Flash and Provoke as "not" DPS skills. Like a Pugilist has Second Wind, Featherfoot and Fist Of Earth.

A little calculation, then :
PGL has 7 WS before level 30. Considering every WS used from the right position/stance, we have :
Booshine (150) + True Strike (190) + Snap Punch (180) + Haymaker (170) + Touch Of Death (270) + Twin Snakes (140) + Arm Of The Destroyer (50) = 1150

GLA has 6 WS at the same level, and couting each WS used in the right combo, we have :
Fast Blade (150) + Savage Blade (200) + Riot Blade (230) + Shield Lob (120) + Shield Bash (110) + Rage Of Halone (260) = 1070

PGL is obviously higher but not by "that" much, especially if you give GLA a damage bonus stance. And since GLA will surely spam Rage Of Halone combo, it seems GLA can attain higher "potency" than PGL pre-lvl30, even now.
(Of course base stats clearly overshadow base potency)

Why'd I want a DPS job for GLA ? Because having only one job for a class is pretty stupid (Give us PLD from the start), and having a second tank job is useless (If I want to tank with a Sword&Shield, I'll play PLD)

if gla was also capable of dps from the get go then how would two of them be allowed in a dungeon as you would be defaulted to the tank role..??
if it allowed two gla into a dungeon and one of you just wanted to dps that would be fine but what if you both wanted to dps and hate tanking,. big issue there.?

you would need a dif class that tells the system this is dps not tank.

if anything this would have to be a break away class at 30 with a modified skill set from that point.


also if gla could dps from the beginning that would make for an op tank class as it could agro everything and kill it too.

If you queue as a GLA, you'd be a tank class, with GLA stats, a Sword and a Shield. Those stats and weapon would play a major role in your lack of DPS. And with less vitality than nowadays like I suggested, you'd have to pop Shield Stance to survive, crippling your damage even more. And the Duty Finder won't search for another tank class/job.

If you queue as a GLA-based DRK, you'd be a DPS job, with DRK stats, and a 2-handed sword. The Duty Finder would put a tank in the party, thus you wouldn't have to use Shield Stance, and you could do decent damage.

It's the same difference between Arcanist and Scholar

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

By the way, before lvl30, a revamped GLA would only have Shield Stance, Flash and Provoke as "not" DPS skills. Like a Pugilist has Second Wind, Featherfoot and Fist Of Earth.

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Actually, it would have: Shield Stance, Flash, Convalescence, Provoke, Shield Swipe, Awareness, and Bulwark.

Additionally, it has two strictly utility skills: Shield Bash, and Tempered Will (three if you count Riot Blade--it's useless to GLA as a DPS skill, but could maybe be relevant if DPS job abilities used MP).

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Actually, it would have: Shield Stance, Flash, Convalescence, Provoke, Shield Swipe, Awareness, and Bulwark.

Additionally, it has two strictly utility skills: Shield Bash, and Tempered Will (three if you count Riot Blade--it's useless to GLA as a DPS skill, but could maybe be relevant if DPS job abilities used MP).

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I said before lvl30. Awareness, Bulwark and Tempered Will are already post lvl30, and if you look at my "revamped GLA" on my first post, Convalescence would be pushed to lvl34 too.
Post-30 skill would generally be more useful for the job "in line" with the class than the "deviant" one, like how SCH don't really use Miasma II or Ruin II (Or even Shadow Flare, I'm not sure).

Shield Swipe is exactly like Haymaker for PGL.
Shield Bash, by being a GCD Stun, woul be useful even for a DPS. After all, Lancer and Pugilist each have a Stun skill.

As for Riot Blade, I imagined DRK having a Drain spell with a high mp cost (Like Raise), to make it useful again. I think it would be cool to have a DRK that spend Hit points to improve his damage via a "Souleater" stance, and need to Drain to replenish some HP over-time, so that all the burden won't be on healers. And that its lvl50 skill would be a Minus Strike, doing damage according to HP lost (1/4th, maybe).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I said before lvl30.

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I did actually gloss over this bit, because I couldn't fathom why you were making this distinction. That is, I figured you misspoke. You still have all your class abilities past 30, no matter what job you are. Look at the class as a whole; it's overwhelmingly tank-focused.

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Shield Bash, by being a GCD Stun, woul be useful even for a DPS. After all, Lancer and Pugilist each have a Stun skill.

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Shield Bash is terrible as a DPS ability, as its potency/TP is absolutely horrendous. Both Lancer and Pugilist have stuns that are off-GCD and cost no TP, so they double as potency/s increases and interrupts.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I did actually gloss over this bit, because I couldn't fathom why you were making this distinction. That is, I figured you misspoke. You still have all your class abilities past 30, no matter what job you are.

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Indeed, you still have your class abilities past 30. But like I said, past 30, job skills can make any class any role. In my previous post, I mentionned "Souleater". Imagine a stance where you lose 5% of your HP on any WS to add that same amount of damage to your attack. There, you're a DPS, now.
The only problem is when a job go in Duty Finder at low level, where he can't count on these skills to fulfill another role.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Shield Bash is terrible as a DPS ability, as its potency/TP is absolutely horrendous. Both Lancer and Pugilist have stuns that are off-GCD and cost no TP, so they double as potency/s increases and interrupts.

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Shield Bash is not a pure DPS ability, but it'd still be useful to be able to Stun frequently.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Indeed, you still have your class abilities past 30. But like I said, past 30, job skills can make any class any role.

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The point is, you can only do so much with 5 job abilities.

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Shield Bash is not a pure DPS ability, but it'd still be useful to be able to Stun frequently.

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Not when you're hemorrhaging DPS to do it; get someone else to stun.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

The point is, you can only do so much with 5 job abilities.

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You can do a lot.
If SCH had slightly higher potency on his Cure spell, he wouldn't need the fairy to be an effective healer. Since this potency is totally arbitray on the development team, they could have done it. The important part is to make each DPS unique. By spending hit points, DRK would play a lot different than other DPS.

Take one class, give it a Shield Oath equivalent and Flash, and it could be a tank right away. Give it Rampart and Sentinel, it could eat a lot of damage. That's only four skills.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Not when you're hemorrhaging DPS to do it; get someone else to stun.

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The "frequent" part is precisely when "someone else" can't. Or when you solo.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The important part is to make each DPS unique.

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Exactly, and 5 abilities isn't much to work with. For example, WAR and PLD have enitrely different sets of abilities (barring cross-class), and they're still very similar.
Why attach a job to a class that doesn't play to that job's strengths? You'll just end up with an incoherent mess.
If you really want a unique DPS, then it needs its own class and a job that augments its strengths.

As for the Scholar example, yes, it works, but I still think Scholar would've been much better with its own class. However, it works well enough because Arcanist has utility and both healers are designed to be able to do damage. The pet also functions as extra "job abilities," without being convoluted.

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By spending hit points, DRK would play a lot different than other DPS.

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Maybe, but HP as a resource is fraught with issues (read up on other DRK threads).

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Take one class, give it a Shield Oath equivalent and Flash, and it could be a tank right away. Give it Rampart and Sentinel, it could eat a lot of damage. That's only four skills.

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This already exists; it's called Paladin. Why bother replicating it?

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The "frequent" part is precisely when "someone else" can't. Or when you solo.

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Your job would be to DPS. Using the ability weakens your DPS. That's bad design.

Is SCH useful ? Yes, and it's all that matters. They did a job with a different role. Like I said, there's no point in doing multiples jobs with the same role from the same class, as they'd play almost the same. And there's not point of having jobs, if we stay at one job for each class.

I've read the DRK thread and it baffles me how something is either "useless" (Too much HP spent, all the burden on healers) or "overpowered" (Too less HP spent, and it's basically "free" damage). People need to learn the concept of "balance"

So, Defiance is uncreative because it adds enmity ? Or the enmity combo from WAR ?

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Your job would be to DPS. Using the ability weakens your DPS. That's bad design.

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MNK's job is to DPS, yet they have a GCD Silence that cost a lot of TP and deal poor damage (Less than Shield Bash, in fact)
BRD's job is to DPS, yet they have songs that reduce their damage
WHM's job is to heal, yet they have several damage spells, and even a stance to purposely reduce their healing potency.
Are all these "bad design" ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Is SCH useful ? Yes, and it's all that matters.

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A better question would be: is SCH unique? Yes, it is. Being useful is certainly not all that matters. You, yourself, suggested the need for unique class/jobs.

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Like I said, there's no point in doing multiples jobs with the same role from the same class, as they'd play almost the same. And there's not point of having jobs, if we stay at one job for each class.

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Jobs are a flavorful way to augment your class. Is that not enough? Other classes may or may not get second jobs, but I, personally, am not that interested in seeing it.

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So, Defiance is uncreative because it adds enmity ? Or the enmity combo from WAR ?

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Uh...? I don't know what you're getting at here.

Defiance opens up the rest of WAR's kit. Really, I think WAR is the best designed job we have so far.

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MNK's job is to DPS, yet they have a GCD Silence that cost a lot of TP and deal poor damage (Less than Shield Bash, in fact)
BRD's job is to DPS, yet they have songs that reduce their damage
WHM's job is to heal, yet they have several damage spells, and even a stance to purposely reduce their healing potency.
Are all these "bad design" ?

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I think Arm of the Destroyer is terribly designed, yes.
BRD's songs, while reducing your individual damage, can improve the overall DPS of the raid. They're also functions exclusive to Bard alone. Even so, I'm not sure I like the way songs are designed currently. At least not with BRD defined as a DPS role, such as it is. Many BRDs feel discouraged from singing because of the way its designed. I think the balance is okay though.
Being able to DPS is part of a healer's role (at least for the healers we have so far), so, no, it's not bad design. It's also not a fair comparison. Being able to contribute more DPS is far more valuable than another interrupt option.

There's not much ways to tank. PLD and WAR are both based on high enmity modifier and large effective hit points. WAR was even patched to have better damage mitigation, so it's closer now to PLD than it was before.
Thereforce, future tanks will surely have similarities too, wether it's "creative" or not. Their unicity is not based on theses mechanics.

No, it's not enough for PLD to be a "super GLA". They could have just made GLA like PLD. The purpose of "specialised build" if the choice of several builds. Like SCH and SMN are both specialised Arcanists.

Arm of the Destroyer doesn't prevent MNK to be a good DPS. The fact that it can Silence is a nice addition, not something you have to use all the time, thus crippling your DPS. Every job is not "just" its role. PLD has a DPS stance, WAR has DPS buffs, MNK has a healing buff, etc...that's what makes them unique in a party.

We're getting off-topic.

Answer me this: do you really think it makes sense for GLA to gain a second job that is categorized as a DPS--whose main function is to DPS, when that would invalidate so many of its tanking-focused abilities?
Or do you just, personally, want it, for whatever reason(s) (ease of development, flavor, etc.)?

This won't and shouldn't happen. As mentioned GLD is far too tank focused, MRD would be more likely to get a dps job since it's skills translate better to a dps but even so they are still more tank focused.

The devs have already mentioned not liking how jobs turned out with SMN/SCH so they have no plans to do it like that anymore although yoshi has mentioned there could be an overhaul to the system at some point but until it's confirmed and we know more about it the addition of jobs by themselves has been shelved.

Besides that wouldn't a new class with a job be more interesting anyway? That means newer abilities and mechanics could be formed, if you just add a job working off an older classes abilities it could become a stale system.

I wouldn't have created this topic if I didn't think it make sense. As I said, keeping only one job destroy the purpose of separating classes and job, and giving a second job with the same role is useless. You need to separate what are "enmity focused abilities" and what "survival focused abilities". A DPS like DRK is often riskier than other DPS, so those surviving skills would still be useful. As for "enmity focused abilities", there's not a whole lot of them.

And of course, I'd personnaly want DRK to be added to GLA, because I love this job, it has been related to PLD in the past, and it generally uses Sword, which is GLA's weapon here.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

This won't and shouldn't happen. As mentioned GLD is far too tank focused, MRD would be more likely to get a dps job since it's skills translate better to a dps but even so they are still more tank focused.

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Arcanist is heavily DPS focused (Only 2 skills for healing) and yet, SCH exists, and is pretty usefull and interesting. As for MRD, if you consider that it can get a second job, you can't deny that to GLA. At least Argyle is fine with "one class, one job"

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

The devs have already mentioned not liking how jobs turned out with SMN/SCH so they have no plans to do it like that anymore although yoshi has mentioned there could be an overhaul to the system at some point but until it's confirmed and we know more about it the addition of jobs by themselves has been shelved.

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The only thing I saw about how SCH is flawed is from people that whine to have bonus point not optimised. Because a little choice is apparently too much for them.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Besides that wouldn't a new class with a job be more interesting anyway? That means newer abilities and mechanics could be formed, if you just add a job working off an older classes abilities it could become a stale system.

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Again, if you create a new class for every new job, and keep the ratio 1:1, there's not point in creating both.

It's clear you put thought into this. But it's already been stated that SE was disappointed with how the SCH/SMN branched off the ACN class.

Don't get your hopes up over it happening again. Instead, just hope for a new class that becomes DRK at lvl 30. Instead of revamping a whole class.

I have to wonder where your motivation for wanting this branch comes from anyways. Sounds like you just want a new job you don't have to level.

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Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

We're getting off-topic.

Answer me this: do you really think it makes sense for GLA to gain a second job that is categorized as a DPS--whose main function is to DPS, when that would invalidate so many of its tanking-focused abilities?
Or do you just, personally, want it, for whatever reason(s) (ease of development, flavor, etc.)?

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Aw cool then pls enlighten me why DRG cross class skills is more tank-ish compared to MNK or even BRD cross class skills?

I'd rather they keep all classes and jobs as is, and add a new class every time they want to add a job. This insta-lvl 50 job business is garbage.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

Aw cool then pls enlighten me why DRG cross class skills is more tank-ish compared to MNK or even BRD cross class skills?

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Um...what?

Nobody was discussing cross-class. I think you misunderstood something.

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

I have to wonder where your motivation for wanting this branch comes from anyways. Sounds like you just want a new job you don't have to level.

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Originally Posted by Arkine

I'd rather they keep all classes and jobs as is, and add a new class every time they want to add a job. This insta-lvl 50 job business is garbage.

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Leveling is not a problem. As I said, there's no point in doing classes AND jobs if we keep one job per class

i'm all in with the two tank classes gaining a dps job, just like i want the dps melee gaining a tank job. for gla, i liked your changes, and i'd put as the dps job, an hability that override the flash emnity to damage, making it an AoE skill that consumes mana and makes sense the riot blade. but i'd prefer the GLA to branch as Red Mage, and the DRK branching from Warrior (lorewise it already makes sense, DRK could be warriors that became overpowerd by their inner beast, but learned to control and gained dark powers)

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Originally Posted by Maxin_Rudy

i'm all in with the two tank classes gaining a dps job, just like i want the dps melee gaining a tank job.

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I think every class should evolve into one DPS and one "other role". This could really improve the number of tanks and healers in the long run. One want to play a DPS on endgame ? Fine, pick any class. BUT since a tank/healer is just a job crystal away, and it'd help one queue really fast, maybe they'll cross the line and play them a little too. And maybe they'll like it ;)

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Originally Posted by Maxin_Rudy

but i'd prefer the GLA to branch as Red Mage

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We can play around the "too tank focused abilities" to design a melee DPS. But a Red Mage would require a lot of changes to be decent at low-level since GLA doesn't have any damaging/healing spell.

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Originally Posted by Maxin_Rudy

DRK branching from Warrior (lorewise it already makes sense, DRK could be warriors that became overpowerd by their inner beast, but learned to control and gained dark powers)

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Jobs don't branch from other jobs (For now, at least). You'd have to make a connnection between MRD and DRK.

the way that smn and sch split from a single class all jobs will eventually split to 2 or more classes. gladiator second class might be dark knight wich will be using a greatsword keeping all gladiator abilities, and adding a new set of abilities and different crossclass skills. or drk could be split from marauder one of the two.

More needed is the DPS Lumberjack.
50 War / 15 Botanist required.
Plaid Shirt.
Some threat lowering dps increasing stance.

Can also chop trees.

Next Level gaming.

Due to the armory system, unless you want your DRK running about with a Sword and Shield, it would have to come from another class (most likely warrior with its currently ability set and weapon) or a newly introduced class. It would be the equivalent of branching Engineer off from Archer. They might both be DPS but they use entirely different weapons.

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Originally Posted by FriendlyUncle

Due to the armory system, unless you want your DRK running about with a Sword and Shield,

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Or they could create two-handed gladiator's arm for GLA and DRK, and make Shields not available for DRK.
After all, we already have two-handed and one-handed weapons for CNJ and THM, why not doing interesting things with this concept ?

And even if they keep Sword & Shield for DRK, what's the problem ?
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/D...=CecildsNB.png

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Originally Posted by rex1976

the way that smn and sch split from a single class all jobs will eventually split to 2 or more classes. gladiator second class might be dark knight wich will be using a greatsword keeping all gladiator abilities, and adding a new set of abilities and different crossclass skills. or drk could be split from marauder one of the two.

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You will probably see this included in some way other than how the ACN works with SMN/SCH. Squenix said they didn't like how it turned out.