Why are 1.0 lvl 50 dungeons are harder than ARR's

1st, nope. This is not for comparing the 1.0 ones. This is just about the old dungeons carried into ARR, which is Dzemael Darkhold, Cutter's Cry, & Aurum Vale.

I just recently doing animus book for my 2nd weapon. And as usual, this requires revisiting old contents. One that strikes me odd for a long time, is that why these 1.0 provides more challenging content even compared with current 2.3 dungeon lineups?

And if you think this is a complaint about difficulty, you're wrong. This is about eagerness. Each animus book provides us to clear 3 dungeon: easy, medium, & hard. And oddly, these 1.0 dungeons falls into medium category simply because they are lowered as pre-level 50 and requires level sync, being changes from the original 8-man setting as in 1.0.

Now here's the odd part: when I DF all these 3 dungeons: the hard would usually pops 1st. And being a hard content, they felt very breezy to ran through. Then comes the easy dungeons, they're so easy, you could almost felt asleep doing them. And that's left with medium dungeons. Even if I ask linkshell to help me queue these, most of them seems not so eager. This is understandable because frankly, these 1.0 provides very unique mechanics that makes other dungeons looked kinda weaker, even Qarn & Stone Vigil (these also considered hard dungeons by some ppl) are easier.

So, in the end, maybe there's consideration needed for either re-tune these 1.0 dungeons, or make the other dungeon contents challenging as 1.0 does. Then again, only players doing animus had to deal with this, so this might not be huge problem for other players choosing another gameplay paths like primals or coils.

What do you think?

Because for awhile in 1.0 Dungeon spam was the only thing to do and there were only 3 of them (lvl 50). So naturally if there's only 3 dungeons in the game for end game it would have to be tougher.

haha... you're missing the point. 1.0 are just for referencing content that exist there and now carried over to this version. This is purely about ARR content talks.

And because Cutters Cry and Aurum Vale gave you the best gear ingame (darklight)

I think the answer is the same as the one to the question why 2.0 Coil1 was harder than 2.2 Coil1

Again, you're missing the point. Current ARR has those darklights drops from 2.2 dungeons (lost city of amdapoor keep, brayflox HM, Halatali HM), not the old 1.0 ones.

To emphasize:
Why the reworked old 1.0 dungeon contents are even harder than 2.3 ones?

Coils not even included since it was categorize as raids in duty finder, not dungeons.

Because you did those dungeons at gear appropriate levels (40+). Now everyone outgears the content. You can get full i90 from hunts in a few hours. Try doing the 2.3 dungeons at recommended ilvl of 70 and tell me how that goes.

Edit: Also, pls buff 2.4 dungeons by A LOT.

Dungeons are harder and harder as you level up.
Until you reach lvl50 and your gear allows you to overpower the lvl50 ones

I don't understand... Are you saying that these dungeons as they are now are harder than other dungeons?
None of them are hard to begin with... They may take more time than some 50's though because you get level synched.

They're also required for GC progression.

Why are you asking the player base why x is harder than y? It's not like anyone here can be like, "Let me just call up my bff yoshi-p and ask him for you."

again, this is not about how hard it is, it's more about eagerness, as I underlined it in 1st post.

If you're saying the 1.0 dungeons that got carried over to 2.0 are hard, I don't know what to tell you. I've never had a hard time in a low level 49- dungeon even with new players.

Oh I get it. It's because your gear isn't level synced on "hard" dungeons. Most people way outgear the ilvl requirements these dungeons were designed for. The other dungeons, the pre 50 ones, your gear is synced with your level and brought more in line to preserve the difficulty. Probably so it isn't THAT easy to carry someone who isn't level synced through them as it would be otherwise.

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

again, this is not about how hard it is, it's more about eagerness, as I underlined it in 1st post.

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the battlesystem in 1.0 was just awful and slow and made most things way more difficult, then they would be now
with the current battlesystem the 1.0 instances would have been cakewalks too

err... you guys really missing the point here. I'm not complaining about how hard it is, since I'm not. If you read last sentence on my 1st post, I even suggest that other dungeons should be more harder than old 1.0.

It's more like how ppl not to eager to do these things.

As in my case, I'm doing this for my animus books, and got harder time getting ppl to come play these dungeons with me since these old 1.0 ones are not too friendly compared with ARR designed dungeons.

Again, keyword: eagerness.

There. I underlined, and bold it. ;D

because people were wearing trash gears back then.

The problem is that SE's new level 50 dungeons have too low level req. when everyones running around with at least ilvl90 gear they are too easy. and you can get full ilvl 90 in a day from hitting 50.
I sure hope that next dungeon requires avg level 100+ but if they're going the same path again it's gonna be ilvl 80, so it's gonna be supereasy again

Yah what others said. You're gear capped in those dungeons whereas anything post-50 you and outgear. I've run things like Haukke HM with a very low ilevel team and it's HARD. Especially the final boss. Sure the constant difficulty of AV and to a lesser extent DD can be a deterrent but the only answer to that is the nerf bat. We do NOT want them nerfed. New 50s are already getting to coast without learning their jobs thanks to Hunts. We can't take away two of the only dungeons that test them before 50.

Your original post is written rather confusing and your choice for the thread title doesn't help either.

Like how you explicitly say it's not about difficulty, but then most of your post talks about difficulty, and then your recommendation to encourage people to run these dungeons is also about difficulty (unless you meant something else with "re-tune these dungeons")

Moving on to the topic, I think it's less of people not wanting to run them and more of they are not required by the main quest, every other dungeon is required to be ran at least once, Halatali, Qarn and those three are purely optional, I assume many people don't even know they exist until they are required to unlock them by the GC quest. It doesn't help either that in order to unlock them you have to do a side-quest, and I think during the leveling process many people skip side-quests and focus on the main quest.

Dzemael - people are too busy making pre-mades to do first room clear.
Cutter's Cry - I honestly don't know, I get this often in roulette enough.
Aurum Vale. - no lvl 50 job/class skill, ilvl can't help you and lots of ways to die. A general non-favourite. Also first room clear.

Maybe that helps?

Yeah the dungeons pre-50 aren't hard, but they certainly provide more challenge than the post-50 dungeons due to the dungeon ilevels not keeping up with character levels like they do pre-50. Game could really use some harder dungeons without lockout so that FCs have something to do. Coil lockout kills FCs.

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

1st, nope. This is not for comparing the 1.0 ones. This is just about the old dungeons carried into ARR, which is Dzemael Darkhold, Cutter's Cry, & Aurum Vale.

I just recently doing animus book for my 2nd weapon. And as usual, this requires revisiting old contents. One that strikes me odd for a long time, is that why these 1.0 provides more challenging content even compared with current 2.3 dungeon lineups?

And if you think this is a complaint about difficulty, you're wrong. This is about eagerness. Each animus book provides us to clear 3 dungeon: easy, medium, & hard. And oddly, these 1.0 dungeons falls into medium category simply because they are lowered as pre-level 50 and requires level sync, being changes from the original 8-man setting as in 1.0.

Now here's the odd part: when I DF all these 3 dungeons: the hard would usually pops 1st. And being a hard content, they felt very breezy to ran through. Then comes the easy dungeons, they're so easy, you could almost felt asleep doing them. And that's left with medium dungeons. Even if I ask linkshell to help me queue these, most of them seems not so eager. This is understandable because frankly, these 1.0 provides very unique mechanics that makes other dungeons looked kinda weaker, even Qarn & Stone Vigil (these also considered hard dungeons by some ppl) are easier.

So, in the end, maybe there's consideration needed for either re-tune these 1.0 dungeons, or make the other dungeon contents challenging as 1.0 does. Then again, only players doing animus had to deal with this, so this might not be huge problem for other players choosing another gameplay paths like primals or coils.

What do you think?

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The main reason why i think that the dungeons like Cutter’s Cry, Dzemael Darkhold and Aurum Vale are tougher then the new ones like The Lost City of Amdapor and Hullbreaker Isle, is that Cutter’s Cry and Darkhold syncs players below level 50. Due to that, classes will lose incredibly useful skills like Circle of Scorn and Hallowed Ground. At least, for me it makes it harder to keep hate when you are accompanied with well geared and experienced DPS.

Also, the chances that you meet people who haven’t done the dungeon yet is higher for dungeons like Darkhold, then with Hullbreaker Isle. You tend to meet people who are still leveling their class in dungeons like Darkhold, while in Hullbreaker Isle you tend to meet people who are iLvl 95+.

I remember a time at the beginning of 2.0, where we ran dungeons like Amdapor Keep in our AF and wiping a on the Mindflayer and the Demon Wall. Back then, we thought that those dungeons were “though” as well, but after getting more and more Darklight / Myth Gear, they became a lot easier.

I don’t think that the general difficulty has changed a lot. The new dungeons like Pharos Sirius, The Lost City of Amdapor, Hullbreaker Isle were meant to use new types of mechanics, while the Hard Mode dungeons were made just to make things more hectic and harder to manage.

But, since a lot of us are pretty well geared and experienced due to a lot of dungeons/raid runs, we preceive them as “easy” until we queue up to Aurum Vale with a few people who are not as well geared as us.

haha. sorry if that confuses you. ^^;

The term difficulty i meant was not on dungeon itself, but on ppl eagerness to redo them.

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

haha. sorry if that confuses you. ^^;

The term difficulty i meant was not on dungeon itself, but on ppl eagerness to redo them.

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Time to complete.
That should be the number one reason why they don't want to do it.

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

haha. sorry if that confuses you. ^^;

The term difficulty i meant was not on dungeon itself, but on ppl eagerness to redo them.

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MAN, and I was so sure I had it right too. :(
Anyway, I dunno, most people don't do lower level dungeons outside of leveling alt classes and running low level roulettes. Probably a good bit don't even bother to do the latter. I don't want to be one of THOSE people, because I personally really like hunts, BUT the ease of myth and soldiery you can obtain from hunts is probably a contributing factor, and unfortunately unlikely to change until 2.4 where either the hunt rewards no longer match up to the current tier of gear, or allied seals are added to roulettes, neither of which are guaranteed to happen.

Cutter's is not too bad tbh, whenever I do LL roulette as SCH there's a high chance to get either Cutter's or Toto-Rak. For DD and AV I guess it has to do with both they being so close to 50 and the options available, most people I know do either first room spam of DD/AV for quick exp or stick to fates til 50, those two dungeons can be rather long, so in the end the options are so good that they leave very little desire to run those whole dungeons for the last 6 levels.

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

haha. sorry if that confuses you. ^^;

The term difficulty i meant was not on dungeon itself, but on ppl eagerness to redo them.

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After posting my comment i noticed that it didn’t include the last part of my answer:

“And to be honest… I’m not sure what you mean that the post is about “eagerness”. Because the rest of the post appears that you are talking about that the newer dungeons feel like a breeze, compared to the lower level dungeons.”

But, you’ve basically answered that part already. (^_^ ) Yeah, the players working on the Animus books are “eager” to get their weapon upgrade, since they can get it at their own pace (rather than being depended on clearing Coil or the Extreme Primals).

To some, getting a static to run Coil or finding the right PF party is a challenge of it’s own. So, i perfectly understand why people would go for the Animus/Novus weapons.

I decided to go for the Curtana and Holy Shield Novus, because i could do it at my own pace, without having the need to clear Turn 7 and 8 for the UAT and SoT. On top of that, i could decide which stats i could meld into them. That was my biggest motivation for getting the Novus. I won’t be doing it for another weapon any time soon though. Hahaha.

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

err... you guys really missing the point here.

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You're not being clear in what you are trying to say; try to rephrase rather than repeat.

If you are commenting on why people prefer not to run these dungeons, it's because they are pains in the ass. They really aren't all that fun and the drops aren't worth the hassle (imo, of course.)

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

haha. sorry if that confuses you. ^^;

The term difficulty i meant was not on dungeon itself, but on ppl eagerness to redo them.

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The eagerness to redo dungeons in MMOs is easy. You amplify the payload or reward. Your doing these dungeons because you want something. Eagerness to do dungeons drop when there isn't anything worthwhile to earn from doing these dungeons. If you want to understand more of this, search up older MMOs and look at popular dungeons. You'll notice that they either have a huge amount of items that drop or a highly demanded item. So eagerness to do dungeons, especially older ones, is directly related with the rewards they offer.

During the beginning of the game, its just a massive of flood of players going thru the content but once people go thru, what makes them return is the rewards offered by the dungeon.

No one likes doing low level dungeons where you lose all your skills. Hard mode ones is because people are queuing roulette, easy mode because people are queuing roulette and low level people are leveling. I'd wager many people, who are 50, don't like doing the lower level dungeons (sub-50), even less so dungeons in which you can't steamroll through.

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

again, this is not about how hard it is, it's more about eagerness, as I underlined it in 1st post.

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You didn't underline much of anything in your first post. Quit being a twit and say what you are actually asking, or did you just come here to respond 30 times with "that's not what this is about".

Nobody likes being lvl-synch especially if you are lvl 50. That is why they like the newer dungeons

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

Then again, only players doing animus had to deal with this, so this might not be huge problem for other players choosing another gameplay paths like primals or coils.

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This is the answer. Most people don't run any particular dungeon for the challenge or the fun, at least not after the first few times. Most players run dungeons for the rewards, and the rewards in the dungeons below level 50 aren't worth it for most players. The only people you'll see queuing for any specific dungeon (barring the current speedrun flavor of the month dungeon) are people who need it for some reason (GC hunt log, quest, animus book, glamour), or people tagging along with those people. Or, very, very rarely, the special snowflake who honestly just feels like running that particular dungeon for one reason or another. Anybody else is there because it's either their roulette or their highest available dungeon while leveling.

And for people leveling, it's always bottom-heavy. There are far more people with Sastasha unlocked than with AV unlocked, and so on. For every one person with only Sastasha unlocked, there are a few more people pulled into Sastasha by roulette, so they're not available for CC or DD or AV or whatever. The bottom half of the scale can drag the top half into the bottom half, but the other way around doesn't work, so it ends up even more bottom heavy than the natural distribution.

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

and you can get full ilvl 90 in a day from hitting 50.

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I understand your intent and all, but this is going WAY past hyperbole. Unless you can tell me someone new to lvl 50 can farms coils 1-5, get all the drops they want, not wipe, or farm up 5010 mythology in one day, not going to happen anytime soon.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

I understand your intent and all, but this is going WAY past hyperbole. Unless you can tell me someone new to lvl 50 can farms coils 1-5, get all the drops they want, not wipe, or farm up 5010 mythology in one day, not going to happen anytime soon.

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Hunts. 20 Allied seals for i90 belt and accessories, 30 seals for i90 head/gloves/boots, and 40 seals for i90 body/pants. Add that to the myth that you get from hunting, and it's actually quite possible, and far from hyperbole. You'd only need 290 Allied Seals for an entire i90 set, and if it's your first week on soldiery, chances are by the time you get that many seals you'd have the soldiery for the i100 ring.

On topic: Try speed running those pre-50 dungeons. Unless you sac pull, it's not going to happen because of level sync, and through that, item level sync. Time to reward, it's simply not worth it to run those dungeons unless you're leveling an alt class or doing a book - and even then people often stay away from AV simply because it stinks in there.

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Originally Posted by gamesmart

Hunts. 20 Allied seals for i90 belt and accessories, 30 seals for i90 head/gloves/boots, and 40 seals for i90 body/pants. Add that to the myth that you get from hunting, and it's actually quite possible, and far from hyperbole. You'd only need 290 Allied Seals for an entire i90 set, and if it's your first week on soldiery, chances are by the time you get that many seals you'd have the soldiery for the i100 ring.

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I thought allied seals only gave i70 gear. In that case, my bad. Did not know they could be exchanged for the mythology gear.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

I thought allied seals only gave i70 gear. In that case, my bad. Did not know they could be exchanged for the mythology gear.

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The i70 gear is totally overpriced and basically intended only for glamour. If you check in the DoW and DoM categories of the Billmasters they sell all the myth gear you will ever want or need.

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Originally Posted by BobbinT

This is understandable because frankly, these 1.0 provides very unique mechanics that makes other dungeons looked kinda weaker, even Qarn & Stone Vigil (these also considered hard dungeons by some ppl) are easier.

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Me and a FC mate were talking about this. Quarn has so many unique dungeon mechanics that make the whole instance so interesting. Yet it's a mid-tier dungeon that wasn't even part of the main story until it was shoehorned in for the extreme primals. Yet you look at the last dungeons and it's the same boring thing of "open this gate so you can't speed run it like back in 2.0.

Killing the heads on the pads or else they keep rezing.
The optional rooms you can open up that contain traps.
The final puzzle room to get extra loot.

Made the dungeon really interesting.

So you're saying that nobody "is eager" to do older dungeons that have nothing to offer players who are level 50 and geared?

I think i can speak for why the medium dungeons are underused:
1) The "pool" of players is much smaller. There are a lot of 50s, there are a lot of lowbies. there aren't that many midleveled and it's a very transient time of the game. There's also another aspect i'll get into later.
2) Some of those dungeons are just flat out annoying. Dzemael Darkhold is probably the most run (in part because it has that skimpy colosseum gear. IN PART. Also in part for...I'll get to that.) and even it has some mechanics that just don't show up in other dungeons: The first boss is set up to take a lot longer to kill than the two bosses that follow, the second is a healer's nightmare, and the third...well, he's fine except the whole one-shot mechanic that's easily avoidable.
And then there's Aurum Vale. Environmental hazards, one of the hardest first rooms in any dungeon, and status ailments out the wazoo. Because of this, people just run Dzemael instead, since it's faster and (mostly) safer.

I think why a lot of people are missing "Your Point" because you did not explain it very clearly. But overall of course 1.0 dungeons are harder because that was ALL of the dungeons available at that time. Yoshi-P has said countless amount of times that this MMO is catered to casuals and first time MMOers. So of course the dungeons are gonna be easier. 1.0 was trying to make a MMO for the "hardcores"

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Originally Posted by Magis

Quarn has so many unique dungeon mechanics that make the whole instance so interesting. Yet it's a mid-tier dungeon that wasn't even part of the main story until it was shoehorned in for the extreme primals.

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Sure, it is not part of the mainstory around midlevel, but at level 50
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