So, I think we need to start looking at ways to make content without a grind. Not saying grind is good or bad, but all kinds of content is always good.
I think that the most extreme, but maybe most amazing thing that could be implemented would be a near-impossible dungeon/primal/boss, or you know what, even a super hard jumping puzzle, (Devs said they would look into making jumping puzzles) essentially content so hard that even the devs can barely beat it.
For the boss content to be truly hard, it can't be scripted, otherwise people will just guide it up and that's that. It would have to be a fight where you can only survive through reaction timing only, I suppose Dark Souls could be a good example, but who knows.
The jumping puzzle content would be something that could only be found through sheer luck and determination, after all we need to keep in mind this content is supposed to last a while without being a grind. I think a good way to do this is to randomly spawn an entrance somewhere around the map to the instanced jumping puzzle, and depending on where you found the entrance, whether it's leading into a mountain, or through a waterfall, it would lead you to a different jumping puzzle, it would be the devs choice as to whether or not these entrances would randomly appear, but again, I don't think making it too scripted is a good idea.
Now for all this near-impossible content, it should of course be for some legendary reward that has some good lore behind it, what the item(s) could be is up to them. Probably not weapons, since we have the Relic upgrades going, but maybe Relic gear...?
On a side note: We've got a lot of vertical progression now, I'm hoping we'll get other forms of progression in the future!
P.S Ideas like these would most likely require new mechanics and systems, so keep an open mind, aka I didn't put much thought into it, and I don't think it should be completely random, unless it could become a good Idea.
Suggestion-More risk, more reward content for the future!
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08-06-2014, 07:37 PMEstevoSuggestion-More risk, more reward content for the future!
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08-07-2014, 08:15 AMraelgunUmm if things are utterly random, then you will have cases where you get a very easy random situation, how does that work? Also end game bosses are made in a way that the jobs skill sets are designed, why designed a mechanic that no job has a skill or spell to deal with? thats not hard, thats wiping for the sake of wiping, nothing more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Estevo
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08-07-2014, 08:23 AMTygg
But where is the risk? You fail, you try again, no worries. I would say give awesome gear rewards for very tough encounters, but cause a piece of worn gear to be lost forever if the encounter is failed.
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08-07-2014, 05:02 PMSurian
God no, the last thing this game needs is more "One mistake and you're getting kicked" groups because they made it so that even the slightest mess-up will wipe you or remove you from the fight entirely. It's already happening to rediculously easy stuff too, basicly locking everyone who is new out from it forever.
I'm fine with more and diffirent mechanics, maybe even in a longer lasting fight, but this one-hit bullcrap with near unavoidable hit-spheres needs to stop already.
You're asking to cater to the 5% of the playerbase, who quite frankly havent been nice enough to anyone to deserve such a "reward", when everyone would want to experience new content. -
08-07-2014, 05:23 PMEstevoOk then, the content can be solo, or they could do both, and scale it depending, it doesn't have to be group content, we have plenty of that lined up already. I didn't mean to imply we should get one-shot, we don't need to think of preconceived ideas, we could try doing something else!Quote:
Originally Posted by Surian
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08-07-2014, 05:25 PMEstevoIt doesn't HAVE to be random, there are plenty of other mechanics that could be considered for this, most likely new ones!Quote:
Originally Posted by raelgun
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08-07-2014, 11:16 PMraelgun
on subject of vertical progression, I like getting new more powerful gear, I am facing stronger foes as time goes on, why would I want the same damn gear for decades ? the people that want this are the ones that are struggling, since the likes of coil drop some of the best items, also nothing wrong with ripping apart old dungeons, this also helps recruit new members to your group if needs be like we did for 2nd coil by taking them through T5 when we needed a new healer.
Also have you done 2nd coil ? T6, T7 and T8 so far dont have much one shot mechanics, T6 has only 1 real one shot mechanic, everything else is actually random in terms of who gets what debuff, that cant be predicted much and up to the person in a quick manner to deal with it. -
08-07-2014, 11:41 PMRenikThen i don't see why you like the actual system.Quote:
Originally Posted by raelgun
@OP
You described GW2 hidden jumping puzzles, the only ones i' have seen there were hidden after a soloable mini boss randomly located in the world map, after defeating it a gate would open to a really difficult instanced jumping puzzle, some included battles and you were always willing to find random ppl there for some cooperation, because most times, if you diedthe map would kick you to the open worldyou would be forced to wait for a res or HP, it is a great system, but the rewards should be well balanced. -
08-08-2014, 04:46 PMEstevoMaybe I was alluding to the GW2 system subconsciously haha, and yes the rewards should be well balanced, what I was hoping more for was special gear where you have to explore for it, you know, to utilize the open world a bit more, but maybe RNG isn't the way to go about it. I'm just looking forward to more open world content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renik
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08-08-2014, 05:03 PMSeibahUh, have you? T7:getting hit by the renaud or not having cursed shriek dodged properly=1 shotQuote:
Originally Posted by raelgun
T8:ballistic missile mishandling -
08-08-2014, 05:11 PMAssirra
A couple things.
If all it required to down a boss is watching a guide as you imply. Why has not everyone killed t9 by now?
Knowing what to do and doing it are 2 different things.
Next, the non-scripted stuff. Know that is an mmo and not dark souls so the comparison is wrong and should not be made to begin with. Btw there are reaction based mechanics in game. every dodge thing or stuff like conflag with t5.
Making the fight more random will get quite annoying and make make for some stupid progress raids. One try the boss is suddenly a lot harder then before and backwards. Some more randomness would be nice, like say the boss can do A B or C and you have to react acordingly.
Jumping puzzles, for the love of god NO. this game has some weird physix (trying to jump on a rock can sometimes be more challenging then it should) so adding those in would just be infuriating.
Near impossible bosses. How exactly? Ilvl gear will make it easier no matter what not to mention the complete outcry everywhere if they made content too hard. Want some proof? Look at the echo.
Tbh, all i can read from this post is "random random hard hard random hard" without too much thought about it. -
08-08-2014, 05:38 PMRenikI'm not gonna lie, i haven't even cleared coil1, i'm actually in t4, but for me the hard part of coil is not having time or interest in making/joining a static, i was hardcore raider in other games and a static for me feels like a job now, some player are not skilled enough, but it's not the majority like most believe, for me it's simple, to do coil you have to know it and a do it with players who work well together. All the slightly "interesting" content is locked after "must have a win" and having a satic walls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Assirra
And
I don't think we should have full randomness, not because it's bad it's just because this game don't really have systems to counter the RNG, like increased drop rates or survivability skills, we depend heavily on healers. But invariable scrips and simple gambits are not better than randomness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renik
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08-08-2014, 05:59 PMGramul
I'd enjoy some more high risk high reward content, but I'm afraid this game is so structured that it can't deviate from the rail progression setup.
Every boss and dungeon seems to be delicately centered around you having exactly what they want you to have and following the proper motions through scripted events. Throwing more chance, skill and reward might wreck the "theme park ride" thing they got going on.
We are restricted to a party size, setup (holy trinity is easier to design around), gear strength, and usable abilities.
You're essentially going on a tour. Using ingenuity, personal discovery, unexpected opportunity, varying tactics, and progression options in general do not mesh well with the modern MMO design.
They need subscribers. Numbers are in the lowest common denominator. The lowest common denominator likes a smooth and streamlined experience. I mean just look at the outcry over Zodiac weapons. They're not even the strongest weapons available (and will never be) and can be completely skipped, but people hate it because though it requires less effort, it's far more chance based and will likely require you to use more time.
Now, don't think of this as me calling out anyone or anything like that, I'm just frustrated with the overall concept of an MMO becoming so mechanical and blase when I feel that the idea of a living virtual world it could be something far more engaging and organic. It's just unfortunate for me that that sort of thing doesn't appeal to the masses. "Spectacle trumps depth", if I can be a bitter old fart about it. -
08-08-2014, 07:26 PMSeibahQuote:
Originally Posted by Assirra
Think of this game's battles like a spelling test where people are all given equal time to review the words and are fairly talented at spelling.
Whether they maybe hear the word wrong, make a small mistake by putting two "s" somewhere, a typo, a brainfart, whatever. They're all still clearly talented and capable people who, between 8 different brains, could make marginally small, human errors throughout their respective tests. Small errors that speak nothing against their skill. The test is still easy, human brains being what they are, especially between 8 people, may not achieve absolute perfection between them every time.
Many of this game's fights are designed in the same way. The raiders are capable of doing them. The raiders are capable of working together. They are more than skilled enough to down whatever raid they're on. Yet even the smallest error from one of them is often enough to wipe the entire raid. That doesn't mean the raid is necessarily "difficult" in that it actually tests skill. It means it brings down massive punishment for even the smallest mistakes, so one needs to sit around an incredibly long time to clear it because of how harshly it punishes the smallest human error.
That is more of a timesink than truly testing the skill of players, if you ask me.
That being said, I still enjoy playing and clearing stuff in this game, because it's really fun to overcome obstacles with your friends. I would just say my reaction upon clearing stuff is more of a "****ing finally" than a "wow guys we are good at this" or something.
Just want to say not all the game's fights are like this, though. I actually enjoy Twintania because it feels more reactionary than some fights. I know people complain about her, but stuff like twisters you see in the cast bar then "react" to. Or you need to find and react to whoever is binded before the dreadknight reaches them. It's a bit different from, I dunno, Titan, who has people just remember every single thing he does every time then follow that exact pattern. Turn 4 is another good one. And even Rafflesia has a lot of mechanics that can be handled in different ways and won't necessarily wipe you for making mistakes here or there. It's stuff like Melusine that really holds raids up because of the nearly zero tolerance for human error present in them, in my opinion. Once people actually figured out how Twintania worked, I think she was difficult for the right reasons (punishingly hard dps checks, needing to react to dbs/twisters, etc) -
08-09-2014, 01:27 AMAssirraTo go further on your example. Why is it that it seems that the same people always have that "brainfart, typo, dubble s" mistake? And another group somehow doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seibah
Now, all fine and well but what the OP wants now is to add another spelling test, but one that requires a master to even understand what is being said. So you want people that have brainfarts do that test?
A bit later after enough auto corrects the first group finally managed to succeed that first test and is now crying they cannot understand the other one. So the teacher saids fine we make it easier like the first test.
And here we have an example of the mmo community shooting in their own foot.
Near impossible bosses work in single player games and only if they are optional, not in an mmo that hundreds of thousands people are playing. -
08-09-2014, 02:02 AMlololink
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08-09-2014, 02:04 AMTyggNot available on PS4.Quote:
Originally Posted by lololink
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08-09-2014, 02:48 AMLineageRazor
On the issue of "risk", rather than looking to more difficult instances, it might be better for there to be more consquences for failure. It's far too easy to jump into an instance, jump out if you don't like the looks of it (or if it doesn't win on the first try), and jump in again with a new group. The ONLY risk in a failed run is the time you spent failing that run, and to cut down on that penalty players are far too ready to bail at the very HINT that things might not be progressing smoothly.
It might be worthwhile to set valuable loot behind instances that CAN'T be rerun at will. Demand some kind of payment item in order to participate, one that's difficult or grindy to obtain. If a player needs to fork over 1000 Soldiery for a Talisman of the Ancients, or it's a 5% drop rate from Boarskin maps, or whatever, you can bet that player's going to do their best to clear the run, even if the Internets claim the best setup is with a WHM BRD BLM PLD and you get a SCH healer or a MNK, or whatever else.
Players should be encouraged to want to overcome difficulties imposed by unfavorable party setups or inexperienced players, rather than turn tail and run when the going gets tough.
Unfortunate that the dread spectre of FFXI should appear right above this post (it's practically the Godwin's Law of the FFXIV forums >_<), because it IS true that FFXI abused this strategy to an absurd degree. Even mission storyline fights typically required a key item for entry that players had limited access to (usually could only obtain one key item per hour, though sometimes reacquisition was even harsher). Even so, used in moderation I think that "high-risk" battlefields requiring payment items for entry would give players a sense of danger that is much lacking in current content.