Stone Vigil HM: Why is Isgebind back? Didn't we kill her?

There's a section in Stone Vigil HM where you fire cannons at Isgebind who is shooting ice at you, just like the 2nd boss of Stone Vigil normal mode. But didn't we kill Isgebind already? Also why is she just there and not fought or mentioned elsewhere in the dungeon? Loremongers assemble!

Isegebind's dead. That's Gowrow.

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Gowrow emits a might roar. Use the Bertha cannons to slay the beast!

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Yeah..that's exactly word for word what I said when I first went into Stone Vigil HM.


EDIT: Huh. I never noticed the "Gowrow"...I could have sworn I saw Isgebind over its head. Maybe I was imagining that because they look so alike. :( Though I did notice there were some slight color differences in their markings.

Huh, well that solves it. Related question, what the heck is up with dragon naming conventions? Isgebind, Aiatar, Gowrow, there doesn't seem to be a strong naming convention like with the other beast tribes or races.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

Isgebind, Aiatar, Gowrow, there doesn't seem to be a strong naming convention

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Now there's a mystery. Isgebind means "fetters of ice" and is seemingly related to a term from Beowulf (winter yþe beleac isgebinde / winter locked them in icy fetters). Aiatar is from Finnish folklore, Gorynich is from Slavic folklore, so is Chudo Yudo, Gowjow is from US folklore, Lampalagua is from Spanish folklore and shares a name with the Boa constrictor, Maracco is from Catalan folklore. Soooo.... I'm keen to think the naming convention for dragons is picking up some type of Encyclopedia of Obscure Monsters of the World, flipping to Dragons, Serpents, and Reptilians and looking for something that vaguely fits with the mob you're working on.

Hm I had the idea that Stone Vigil HM was set in the past, as the castle in stone vigil HM looks much more intact than the original stone vigil.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

Hm I had the idea that Stone Vigil HM was set in the past, as the castle in stone vigil HM looks much more intact than the original stone vigil.

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Except none of that makes sense if you read the quests.... Aside from Echo CSes and The Ultima HM fight (which is a Bard's retelling of our struggles with creative changes). When have we ever gone into the past?

Coils 1-5 take place in the past now, which is the story based explanation of having the persistent echo there. Just as 1 example.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

Hm I had the idea that Stone Vigil HM was set in the past, as the castle in stone vigil HM looks much more intact than the original stone vigil.

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The reason is obious. We killed almost all dragons in the normal mode, and that gave the Isgards an oportunity to recover the fortress. I'n HM they needed our help again to kill more dangerous dragons

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Originally Posted by Coatl

Hm I had the idea that Stone Vigil HM was set in the past, as the castle in stone vigil HM looks much more intact than the original stone vigil.

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Originally Posted by Bauti

We killed almost all dragons in the normal mode, and that gave the Isgards an oportunity to recover the fortress.

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The main reason we went to Stone Vigil earlier in the story was to take back Cid's airship. We killed a few dragons, but the only reason we even killed Isgebind was because Lahabrea woke it up and set it on us. Realizing that they'd have a better chance at reclaiming the Vigil acting earlier than later, Drillemont's forces set up a blockade to prevent the Dravanians from re-solidifying their foothold, secretly planning to attack as soon as everything was in order. Ishgardian heretics rallied to the cause, willing to die if it meant slowing down Ishgard's attempt to truly take the Vigil back. Funny enough, Stone Vigil (Lv. 50) is just as trashed as Stone Vigil (Lv. 41). A lot of people just assume that it's in better general shape than it used to be because the Heretics have lit torches in some of the hallways and we start at a fortified Ishgardian military base camp.

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Originally Posted by Lollie

Coils 1-5 take place in the past now, which is the story based explanation of having the persistent echo there. Just as 1 example.

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In 2.0, right at release, you would gain Echo in The Praetorium if your party died a lot. That was in real time, so I'm fairly sure everything (save for the battle section of Minstrel's Ballad) is in real time the first time you clear it for story progression and is otherwise a non-canon repetition for gear/EXP spam. I think the explanation is that Hydaelyn's Blessing, which is known to us simply as The Echo (based on its most obvious side-effect) is giving you more strength to overcome your challenge.

Coil originally didn't have Echo because that's how the patch cycle works.

Even Numbered Patch
Raises the LV/iLV bar and makes it attainable only by a thin, vertical climb rife with lockouts and an artificially inflated unforgivingness so that the "hardcore" players who pride themselves on getting it first have something to work for and will take them some time.

Odd Numbered Patch
Fleshes out the new tier and brings in gear between the old cap and the new cap, making you slightly more resilient and slightly more powerful, allowing the "midcores" to get in and clear it while it's still new, but without having to spend all the money and grindpower the "hardcore" did to ensure they got it first.

Even Numbered Patch
A new vertical climb comes in, and if you haven't cleared the content from the last Even Numbered Patch yet, it allows you to take advantage of Hydaelyn's Blessing, which, in addition to the new gear, generally negates the artificial inflation of the challenge and takes down the velvet rope of prestige (now that said prestige is gone), letting the "casual" audience progress to the next tier by virtue of understanding the mechanics alone.

Basically SE's just trying to keep all levels of player happy by staggering out the challenge and prestige in a gradation that moves with each patch.

Seeing as after Stone Vigil HM they state that it has been reclaimed, t'would be kind of interesting if they made an open world version of SV and you could see it being repaired and turned back to its "former glory over subsequent updates, just like Revs Toll expanding.

But SV HM has expanded out knowledge somewhat of the Dragons. That they are set up pretty much as a military force with specialized roles, followers gain, somehow, even the ability to turn into a dragon. But still a lot of unanswered questions.

Why is there war between the Ishagardians and the Dragons? Was it started over territory or have the Ascians been at the forefront, sowing dissension and actually initiating the war. A simple question, what came first? The Ishgardians or the Dragons ^^

Or to put another way, who really are the "bad guys"?

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Why is there war between the Ishagardians and the Dragons?

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I really hope this is explored someday, and I imagine it will be.

Part of me wonder if the Dravanians have been waging a war on man ever since the Allag enslaved some of dragonkind.

It's a girl?

Waiting now for Dunkelzahn to show up, aye...

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

followers gain, somehow, even the ability to turn into a dragon.

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I never liked this idea. I mean, it's a fine leap to make given the context, but another famous Ishgardian heretic who used Dragon's Blood and turned into an aevis was our foe the faux Guillaime. This is important because our journal specifically states (as does Guillaime himself during the fight I believe) that this simply a glamour-- a bit of magick made him to look and act like a dragon, but still a man nonetheless.

While we're on the subject of Dravinians and Allagans though, I have to wonder if the Dravinian's odd form of creating thralls and general social structure (seeming more like a hive honestly) has anything to do with years of neurolink enslavement.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

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Actually the echo is a representation of the player ability to access knowledge of the past to aide then in the present. Currently the explanation has not been given story wise how exactly it works, be it alternate dimension/timelines or what have you. The is a perceived sense of being in real time as a new player going through older content, however the world around them in the current incarnation clearly shows advancement beyond where the story says it should be. I would go further and say all content even current is to be viewed as happening in the past and accessed through echo and over scaling time (patches) the attunement of that connection to past/alternate instances is increased.

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Originally Posted by Lollie

Actually the echo is a representation of the player ability to access knowledge of the past to aide then in the present. Currently the explanation has not been given story wise how exactly it works, be it alternate dimension/timelines or what have you. The is a perceived sense of being in real time as a new player going through older content, however the world around them in the current incarnation clearly shows advancement beyond where the story says it should be. I would go further and say all content even current is to be viewed as happening in the past and accessed through echo and over scaling time (patches) the attunement of that connection to past/alternate instances is increased.

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There's absolutely no proof that what you say is right. And Moose's explanation is probably much better than "everything is in the past!", since we're gaining strength from Hydaelyn's Blessing (the Echo being the main thing we received from this blessing).


As for the time, let me quote Fernehalwes :

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Before I move onto question two, allow me to veer off onto a little tangent: there have been several threads about Hydaelyn’s timeline not matching up with Earth’s. If it has been two years since the release of the game, why is it still 1572 in Eorzea at the time of patch 1.23? This is a dilemma faced by a lot of MMOs. To allow everyone that joins the game, regardless of when they do, to experience the full story, there simply has to be a stoppage of time. Okay, not really a stoppage, but more of a time bubble in which a span of about a year is contained. This is why that for the duration of 1.0, Eorzea was in a perpetual 1572. Think of it as the same thing that’s happening in the Simpsons. 23 seasons gone and Lisa’s still 8, Maggie’s still a baby, and the gummy Venus still tastes oh, so sacrelicious. Pushing time along would also mean changing 1000s of lines of NPC dialogue, updating quests, webpages, etc. with every patch. Meaning it would take more than double the time to release updates, and I’m sure most people wouldn’t want to wait. In a book, movie, offline game, a strict timeline can be set without too many complications. In an online title, there are just too many variables, so we ask that you bear with our bending of space-time. It’s for the greater good!

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When you run any content, your character is at the same point in time than the content. If you re-run Praetorium, your character is at this point of the story. The Primals may be the only special case, since they keep getting summoned, again and again. When you're in this Praetorium duty, it's like you've never faced Ultima before, and you sure as hell don't know that Bahamut is under Eorzea.
Same for coil : you never re-run it (in the past), it's like you're there for the first time.

The fact that you use gear from another dungeon is just a gameplay limitation to being in a real world. There's no real explanation that you can find or make, it's just how it is.

Ironically within the entirety of the post you partially quoted has my reference, attached here. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...572#post898626

The portion you reference is more of a guide stating that as it pertains to the current state of the story time is frozen, I agree. What this means is what is currently happening in the game is what the player is supposed to believe is currently happening in the game. the timeframe that is referred to as current in the post you have there funny enough is set 5 years in the past.

(Paraphrased see item 3 for a very specific definition of what it does from a story standpoint) The power of the echo allows a user to experience the past interact with it but ultimately they can not change the course of history. So the notion that anytime you have the echo applied you are experiencing your past or someone else's. Now if the buffs were called 'Hydaelyn's Blessing' sure, but they are in fact called 'The Echo'. Therefore anytime you have the Echo buff by definition you must be experiencing your past or someone else's. (or we have a localization issue that needs addressed)

It's 5 years earlier since this post dates from 1.0, which took place 5 years earlier. The same can be said of the current state of the game.

Now, for your item 3...
You assume there's a "past" of "someone else" who already experienced that. There's nothing leading us to believe we're using someone's memories or experiences.

The Echo also allows you to understand language. Should we consider it makes us understand the whispers of a pink invisible unicorn telling us the weakness of the target?

Past/Memory visiting is one part of the Echo. Others are understanding every languages, changing bodies (as seen with the Sahagin High Priest), shielding us from Tempering or Ultima, and helping us defeating Ultima Weapon.
My point is, it also apparently lends your strength and improve our battle efficiency (praetorium in 2.0, primals, Coil, ...).

There's no need to try to find explanation by experiencing memories from the past or anything else, when it may as well simply be another form of the blessing we received.

I concede to your superior knowledge, as it is beyond my comprehension. Obviously I need to talk to more pink invisible unicorns. Time tells truth, history is in the eyes of the beholder.