Tanks need a guide to enmity generation.

As thread title. I just ran through the Cutter's Cry with a Paladin whose combo consisted of Fast Blade->Riot Blade. As you can guess, no one had a good time. While I'm all for letting people play the game they want to, I think it's important tanks at least get better opportunities to learn what enmity generation is.

As such I'd like to propose there should be an additional quest chain for tanks that introduces the concept of enmity generation, or at the very least a Help window or some other helpful in-game guide that explains that the line "Additional enmity generation" on the Rage of Halone combo is something Paladins should be very excited about, rather than the slightly higher potency on Riot Blade! I think newcomers would have a much better time of it if they understood what "enmity" meant, and why it's important for a tank to generate a lot of it.

Even at 50 people still cannot hold hate. Had a Tam Tara HM with a warrior that wouldn't use defiance because it said it limited the skills he could use. So I ended up tanking most as Drg.

You can't fix stupid, if you try, you will get yelled at.

1) Tell them nicely to do something right.

If you get a rude reply:
If you're a DPS, take off all equips, except weapon. When asked why, tell them it makes you more aerodynamic.
If you're a Healer, take off all equips except weapon. When asked why, tell them it helps you bond with the spirits better.

That usually shuts all those "I play the way I want people up nicely".

In general, the class quests, among other things, should do a better job preparing us. I haven't done the tank ones yet but I am doing the CNJ/WHM ones now and I am baffled that in every quest I am the DD, even when there are NPCs involved because they are mostly CNJ as well. Wouldn't it make sense to have these quests pair me with some lancers and archers and my job was to keep them alive...not to mention have us in the same party during the fight?

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Originally Posted by No2631

As thread title. I just ran through the Cutter's Cry with a Paladin whose combo consisted of Fast Blade->Riot Blade.

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So long that there was a LARGE group of adds the pld was holding with flash spam, this is actually the ideal combo.

Of course dps can undermine its value by attacking single targets too much without switching, but yeah. It has value in certain scenarios.

Edit: If a pld wants the above issue to be mitigated, he/she should mark the enemy they are using riot combo on, as the one for attackers to focus on. And the dps should actually pay attention to said mark... heh.

So here is the deal. We can talk about it as much as we want to, but the truth is that these tanks will never, ever read those forums. They just prefer to ignore anyone that wants to help. I have encountered two tanks in this game that were doing nothing else but spamming only RoH. Not comboed. Just RoH all the time. The problem was that they did not have any idea how the combo system works.

What you say (the trial for tanks) is not good idea. These tanks who want to learn will learn. These who don't will just skip the tutorial instantly without even reading anything. And even if they don't - do you really think that these tanks will be any good in the future?

Not that I don't agree with you OP, but really the requirements and rotations can change the higher your parties ilevel gets and will probably change a little more as the gap between Tank DPS and Melee DPS grows making it harder to keep hate with the up scaling DPS damage even with enmity modifiers.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Not that I don't agree with you OP, but really the requirements and rotations can change the higher your parties ilevel gets and will probably change a little more as the gap between Tank DPS and Melee DPS grows making it harder to keep hate with the up scaling DPS damage even with enmity modifiers.

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In support of the OP, I'm pretty sure he meant that the Paladin was ONLY using his Riot Blade combo, meaning no Flash either.

Yes, Riot Blade is good when paired with Flash, but if he's not using Flash with it, then that's the problem I think he was elluding to.

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

1) Tell them nicely to do something right.

If you get a rude reply:
If you're a DPS, take off all equips, except weapon. When asked why, tell them it makes you more aerodynamic.
If you're a Healer, take off all equips except weapon. When asked why, tell them it helps you bond with the spirits better.

That usually shuts all those "I play the way I want people up nicely".

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I am totally stealing this.

You wanna spiritbond, k I'm gonna bond with them spirits.

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Originally Posted by silvach

What you say (the trial for tanks) is not good idea. These tanks who want to learn will learn. These who don't will just skip the tutorial instantly without even reading anything. And even if they don't - do you really think that these tanks will be any good in the future?

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Who said anything about a tutorial? The suggestions in here were specifically to change the job\class trials to actually be role specific. I agree that the CNJ trials were ridiculous. In no capacity does CNJ\WHM ever DPS except as filler in groups, and in no way should that trial have ever been so DPS-centric as it was. Even the good trial, where you have to save the tree was more DPS centric than anything. You HAD to bring down the adds fast because you cannot heal through the damage to the tree. Ridiculous questline for a class that ONLY evolves into a healer.

The Gladiator trials are a *little* better, but I think the larger issue there is with tank design from the ground up. Provoke should be a low level skill, because this defines your role as a tank. Flash should be slightly more powerful than it is so it doesn't need to be spammed at the start and pray it holds. Or give gladiator a native melee AoE attack like warrior has. Something. ANYTHING. I've played both, and won't even look at my gladiator at this point because warrior is much more fluid as a tank. I have enough cross-class to mitigate and heal back damage, and as much as I loved Paladin in XI, it just isn't the same shining knight it once was. I commend all the people who took it to cap and declare it perfectly balanced - congratulations. Now go roll another character and try it again, against geared players that didn't existed when you leveled.

I joined FFXIV month ago, leveled GLA and PLD without superior gear from "other characters" as I didn't have any. I faced the lvl30-40 struggle where you have Sword Oath instead of Shield Oath.

WAR and PLD aren't completely balanced. WAR is superior in many aspects, enmity generation, selfbuffing, ways to deal damage and while leveling. However, even if the math is on the WAR side, all depends on personal skills and that is the best. Is it easier to hold and maintain enmity on WAR? Yes. Is it easier to level as one? Ofcourse (defiance at lvl 30). Is it more rewarding than GLA / PLD leveling and struggling? No.

Every low-level dungeon I do, every high level content I do with my PLD is quite a challenge for me because I lack instant overpowered aggro generators like WAR (Steel Cyclone hello).

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Originally Posted by silvach

What you say (the trial for tanks) is not good idea. These tanks who want to learn will learn. These who don't will just skip the tutorial instantly without even reading anything. And even if they don't - do you really think that these tanks will be any good in the future?

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I see your point, but disagree. A game really should do its best to discuss the main role you serve in a party rather than pretend you're DPS. I've explained to tanks how their mechanics work during the Garuda fight, and they learned and adapted and improved; however, I feel that such shouldn't be the task of partymembers, but of the game itself. Teach tanks what enmity means, how to generate it, why it's important, and how you lose it.Include an (optional) quest line that better teaches people how all these mechanics work in tandem.

If only 10% of currently unknowing tanks improve, it'd have been worth it.

I remember getting really excited when I played the level 10 (or so) gladiator quest at the appropriate level, because pretty much the only way to finish it at my skill level with my gear was to hold the enmity of the guys trying to kill the NPC. I thought "Oh, nice, the class quests actually teach you how to play the class!". Too bad it's one of 3 or 4 class quests where you're required to do pretty much anything but just tank and spank a boss or a group of enemies.

I understand why the game isn't extremely structured to teach you how to play your role. Squareenix doesn't want to do anything to make the game less casual friendly. I suppose if the fights in the job/class quests were designed to mimic actual party content (like with NPC party members, for example), and enemies and NPCs had buffs/debuffs that exaggerated the effects of you playing your role right, that'd be a step in the right direction without scaring casuals away. Some people would still ignore them, I guess, or never make the connection of "Oh, so this is how I should be playing my class..." but it's probably better than nothing.

Could be worse, I was in Tam Tara HM the other day as bard and the tank asked me for ballad on the 1st lot of trash. I looked at the healer and he was full, but he kept on typing "BALLAD BALLAD" when i asked wtf it turns out it was for him..He called me all sorts of things mostly about what a noob I was when I refused and told me I should learn my class and it's all my fault if anyone dies.

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Originally Posted by LukeyP666

In support of the OP

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I should've specified towards the thread title. Clerical errors at 2am FTL! XD

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Originally Posted by silvach

WAR and PLD aren't completely balanced. WAR is superior in many aspects, enmity generation, selfbuffing, ways to deal damage and while leveling. However, even if the math is on the WAR side, all depends on personal skills and that is the best. Is it easier to hold and maintain enmity on WAR? Yes. Is it easier to level as one? Ofcourse (defiance at lvl 30). Is it more rewarding than GLA / PLD leveling and struggling? No.

Every low-level dungeon I do, every high level content I do with my PLD is quite a challenge for me because I lack instant overpowered aggro generators like WAR (Steel Cyclone hello).

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They are more balanced than you think they are, the real imbalance is when they are leveling that's true. but in endgame they can do the same stuff a warrior can, just differently. only thing warrior 'wins' at is damage while tanking and AoE damage, a little bit in AoE aggro but not so much it's unfair or anything.

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Originally Posted by silvach

What you say (the trial for tanks) is not good idea. These tanks who want to learn will learn. These who don't will just skip the tutorial instantly without even reading anything.

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Excuse me but... what tutorial? By curiosity I just opened my tutorial menu but I couldn't find anything about enmity.
Also, even if they would be willing to read, there's nothing in the game which can grants you that wish.
Not to mention the fact that the tooltips of the skills are completly useless and don't explain a bloody thing.

I strongly believe that OP is right when he says that starting by having some guidelines in the game is a good way to start teaching people how enmity works.

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Originally Posted by blacksheepwall

Could be worse, I was in Tam Tara HM the other day as bard and the tank asked me for ballad on the 1st lot of trash. I looked at the healer and he was full, but he kept on typing "BALLAD BALLAD" when i asked wtf it turns out it was for him..He called me all sorts of things mostly about what a noob I was when I refused and told me I should learn my class and it's all my fault if anyone dies.

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Well. Chainflash consumes mana and he wanted to be sure to spam enough flash for group hate to keep the aggro of the pack. So he maybe was a bit unsure but wanted to go the safe route to do his job and you were the prick who thought you know it better.

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Originally Posted by Ruri

Even at 50 people still cannot hold hate. Had a Tam Tara HM with a warrior that wouldn't use defiance because it said it limited the skills he could use. So I ended up tanking most as Drg.

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Full ACK, had a PLD in TamTara-HM which used exactly 2 Skills - Flash and Rage of Halone (uncomboed, of course)

So...you want a guide to teach people how to read skill descriptions?

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Originally Posted by Grotesque

Well. Chainflash consumes mana and he wanted to be sure to spam enough flash for group hate to keep the aggro of the pack. So he maybe was a bit unsure but wanted to go the safe route to do his job and you were the prick who thought you know it better.

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To be fair, I play PLD myself and I've never needed Ballad to keep hate against even Black Mages, using chainflashing. BRD hosing their DPS for you is a courtesy on their part, not a requirement, I think. It's kind of unrelated to the thread, though, because a PLD using Flash repeatedly to generate group aggro is doing things right, and this thread is asking for a tutorial to help those PLD and WAR who have no idea what "doing it right" entails. An in-game tutorial, optional or not, at least points players in the "official" direction of "how 2 tank".

@Mjytresz: Yes, I do. My rage of halone lists: "increased enmity", but there is no explanation of what "enmity" is, and why I want "increased enmity". Addressing that is a step in the right direction, and at worst still would not present harm to tanks already aware of mechanics. There's no real negative side to implementing an (optional) in-game tutorial on the mechanics of tanking, and how your skills work together to help you perform your well-defined job. Some tanks think doing damage is part of their job, and if the entire game's quest line fosters and encourages this train of thought, the game is raising tanks the wrong way.

I agree, if someone is going into the tanking relf fresh, never playing it before...wtf is enmity.

I think that during the GLD/PLD story there should be a basic explanation. Just telling us, you are the protectors, etc. etc., isn't enough. Most that play tanks already understand this, as we have learned it through other arenas and job types. For new peeps though, I can see how they can get lost.

Even an understanding or explanation of how the combo works would be a +