Warrior cross class debate

I ran into many situations where other players think that "flash" is a needed for warrior. I feel having a level 50 PLD also that flash is a staple of that class. It is in the skills list for gladiator, and so I understand the need for that particular class. Warrior can benefit from this skill, but to be scrutinized by players tell me I "need it" to be even a good tank. Really? Have they ever tanked before. Flash is a joke compared to overpower!

And to top it off I was screamed at by the healer by using Berserk. I understand there is 5s of pacification. Apparently this was HUGELY annoying to the healer, because esuna isn't supposed to be on the hot bar for some reason. I tried to argue that berserk gave me wrath, which helps me tank better. With unchained + berserk+ and bloodbath I feel is a ridiculous amount of threat and HP regen

Help me understand was I just some elitist jerks or complete morons. The things said were outrageous and not forum friendly. Actually made me look at my tanking strategy as warrior differently. So in short is "flash" needed and is berserk worth the risk for extra damage and enmity coupled with unchained and bloodbath respectively?

Hello Sqwall. You can extend your posts beyond the 1000 char limit using the edit option in future posts.

I would say you were correct in not using Flash and using Berserk. The 5 second pacification is not pleasant, but it's not usually a gamebreaker. Tanks seldom lose aggro because of it even if healers don't remove the debuff. Most healers will if they see it, although you may have been paired with a SCH (they don't get their "esuna" until they level-sync above lv.40) who was just frustrated with being unable to handle the debuffs. Similarly, the Flash is not viable for marauders because of the mp cost and it is perfectly acceptable to ignore it.

These changes did come after patch 2.2 though, so those players may be referring to experience from an older version where enmity was harder for tanks to get and flash was an optimized ability for warriors.

I like using flash simply because I don't have much use for MP and it's just an additional threat tool when TP is running low or unable to use overpower.

Flash isn't needed but Provoke is, so you're going to have Flash anyway. It's up to you if you cross class it.

As far as the healer's complaint about Esuna/Leeches, that's ridiculous. A healer that doesn't have their respective cleansing spell on their hotbar and ready to cast is only doing half their job. The five seconds that you have the Pacification debuff shouldn't be that much of a problem for your healer unless they are massively overhealing to the point that they tear aggro off you the moment you stop using enmity-generating skills. If it is, they need to either stop chain-spamming heals unnecessarily or cleanse the debuff off of you. Either way, it's their problem.

I actually think flash is very useful. It works great for quickly picking up initial threat on multiple enemies that might not be positioned or spawn in a position that makes tagging them with overpower as easy. It can also be advantageous in certain situations since you don't have to have the enemy targeted to hit them with flash.

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Originally Posted by Rhais

I actually think flash is very useful. It works great for quickly picking up initial threat on multiple enemies that might not be positioned or spawn in a position that makes tagging them with overpower as easy. It can also be advantageous in certain situations since you don't have to have the enemy targeted to hit them with flash.

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Steel Cyclone?

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Originally Posted by Grembo

Steel Cyclone?

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It's not always what I want to spend wrath on, or always up.

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Originally Posted by Rhais

It's not always what I want to spend wrath on, or always up.

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Can't imagine you needing IB's buff for trash pulls.

Steel Cyclone does everything you mentioned in your previous post and between the stacks you build + Infuriate it's great for chain pulling.

I'd hardly deem Flash 'very useful' just because you're choosing to use it over superior skills :)

On warrior I typically use flash when I'm pacified since you can still flash while under that effect, otherwise I'll just use Overpower or Steel cyclone. While it isn't always needed on pally if you use CoS and swap targets a lot it's much more useful on a pally, blind can also help every now and again on large groups.

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Originally Posted by Grembo

I'd hardly deem Flash 'very useful'

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Turn 4
/10char

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Originally Posted by Grembo

Can't imagine you needing IB's buff for trash pulls.

Steel Cyclone does everything you mentioned in your previous post and between the stacks you build + Infuriate it's great for chain pulling.

I'd hardly deem Flash 'very useful' just because you're choosing to use it over superior skills :)

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I wasn't necessarily talking about just having it for trash pulls, and it's not like there is just a plethora of amazing cross class abilities I'm passing up to keep flash on. Sure there are times where I don't get much use out of it, but there are also plenty of situations where I find it pretty useful. Anyway that's just my opinion on the subject, but for me it's worth keeping as one of my cross class abilities.

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Originally Posted by Nathan061111

Turn 4
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Not really needed but sure.

I also use it for slugs on t6 but didn't think it deserved a mention as situational stuff that I use once per week hardly says much about Flash on War as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Rhais

I wasn't necessarily talking about just having it for trash pulls, and it's not like there is just a plethora of amazing cross class abilities I'm passing up to keep flash on. Sure there are times where I don't get much use out of it, but there are also plenty of situations where I find it pretty useful. Anyway that's just my opinion on the subject, but for me it's worth keeping as one of my cross class abilities.

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Yeah there's not much choice, I used to have Mantra slotted in instead of Flash but never noticed any benefit from it.

Awesome replies everyone. This makes me feel like I'm doing the right thing on warrior. I am new to the class and coming from ilevel 95 paladin I think warrior is just as good if not better in some places.

Preparing all the melee classes for when ninja drops. Never know what I'll need to know for each for that class and what cross class skills I need to acquire.

I am a Warrior, and I have flash equipped.

Some good uses for flash as a Warrior include:
PBAOE aggro, (no cone)
When you want to conserve TP,
Pacification,
Aggro on slept mobs, (it will keep them off your healer when they wake)
Aggro on mobs that must not die. (Slimes in T1 or Spiny plume in Garuda EX)

Whilst it's certainly possible to tank without Flash, I believe that having it give far more options that a tank without.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Flash is a joke compared to overpower!

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A handful of mana compared to 130 TP?
One resource you hardly ever use compared to one you use for everything?

Definitely a joke. Let me blow my frontal-cone shaped black hole TP skill when I can just Flash and be done with it.

it useful for T7 OT picking add for sure. For melee and caster add, if your timing on Voice is right after these add spawns, [ and if you got voice debuff or the caster add cast the stone thing.] then you will have to face away from the mob and cant build hate, then flash is your next best option(steal cyclone is not really an option since you need IB to take hit from Melee add.

it also good tool for grabbing hate on the newly spawn add as it does not require mob to be target.

I'm not 50 yet, so end game I can't talk about, but I really like flash for dungeons. Lower levels I found myself running out of TP a lot because of OP and I find flash ensures I keep aggro and have enough TP to Tomahawk or OP if I need to. Love that ability, especially since my mana is useless otherwise.

I find flash pretty useful. You can use it while pacification is up from beserk as well as when you are kiting monster you don't have to turn around to hit them with OP you can flash and keep running since it hits things behind you.

As mentioned you can use it to hit monsters that haven't spawned yet like the adds that drop down on turn 4. As well as saving you some TP if you are chain pulling a dungeon and not pausing for tp to regen. You could definitely go without it but I am not sure there is any other pug or gld ability that would be more worth while after you took provoke.

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Originally Posted by Remn

it useful for T7 OT picking add for sure. For melee and caster add, if your timing on Voice is right after these add spawns, [ and if you got voice debuff or the caster add cast the stone thing.] then you will have to face away from the mob and cant build hate, then flash is your next best option(steal cyclone is not really an option since you need IB to take hit from Melee add.

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You know the Renauld's can spawn right on top of the adds right?

You can prebuild your combo on the boss and unload a butchers block right when the add spawns, no idea why you'd be using mutli target abilities for any of the adds in t7.

Good job on bring something else to the discussion than "flash are a very useful skill because it's the only button I can press while pacified" though.

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Originally Posted by Grembo

Can't imagine you needing IB's buff for trash pulls.

Steel Cyclone does everything you mentioned in your previous post and between the stacks you build + Infuriate it's great for chain pulling.

I'd hardly deem Flash 'very useful' just because you're choosing to use it over superior skills :)

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Sometimes trash likes to scatter a bit, so it can often be easier to get in the middle of them and flash a couple times to get them in a group and then steel cyclone/overpower. You're not using that MP anyway. And it's not like anything beyond Provoke or Convalescence is very useful either.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

I ran into many situations where other players think that "flash" is a needed for warrior. I feel having a level 50 PLD also that flash is a staple of that class. It is in the skills list for gladiator, and so I understand the need for that particular class. Warrior can benefit from this skill, but to be scrutinized by players tell me I "need it" to be even a good tank. Really? Have they ever tanked before. Flash is a joke compared to overpower!

And to top it off I was screamed at by the healer by using Berserk. I understand there is 5s of pacification. Apparently this was HUGELY annoying to the healer, because esuna isn't supposed to be on the hot bar for some reason. I tried to argue that berserk gave me wrath, which helps me tank better. With unchained + berserk+ and bloodbath I feel is a ridiculous amount of threat and HP regen

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Provoke is required for some fights. Convalescence is very strong and should always be on your bar. Everything else is very minimal in its effect so it's up to you.

And the healer is stupid. If he doesn't want to esuna you, he doesn't need to. You can function as a tank perfectly fine even if you're pacified for 5s after using Berserk.

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Originally Posted by Grembo

You know the Renauld's can spawn right on top of the adds right?

You can prebuild your combo on the boss and unload a butchers block right when the add spawns, no idea why you'd be using mutli target abilities for any of the adds in t7.

Good job on bring something else to the discussion than "flash are a very useful skill because it's the only button I can press while pacified" though.

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you can q up BB on first melee add but what about 2nd and 3rd melee add? you do know that you can get voice right after they spawn right? (my group got voice right after 3rd melee add pop all the time)

my group talking the melee on the edge of platform, so the flash range is away form the fatty spawn (altho, with some bad luck the fatty can still pop on the edge of flash range but that never happen to my group yet)
If you got voice during add and have to stop atking and look away, 1 BB (even if it combo) won't be enough to hold hate against I110 DPS.
you can ask you dps to slow down their dps while you wait for voice to goes off or have them blow up the add while you look away and spam flash (once or twice). 1 DPS will get voice, which mean you will have 2-3 DPS atking the add.

in all seriousness, like Giantbane said, other cross class beside Provoke and Convalescence are not that good anyway,(some of them is good but not THAT good ;P)
- Internal release, good for DPS. goes well with berserk and Unchained. (prolly the 3rd useful cross class for WAR)

- Awareness, Extremely situational.
- Mantra, good combo with Convalescence but it only 5%,
- FeatherFoot, good for normalizing damage but unreliable due to randomness.
- Flash, 360 degree non-target hate grab.
- SecondWind, good selfheal, but CD a bit too long. still decent.
- HayMaker, no idea never see any1 use it. lol

Flash has its uses, and it can work extremely well. For instance Turn 4 on the Two robot adds. You can flash before they even land, and it will hit them.

However i don't think its necessary to be a good Warrior tank. T7 is not somewhere I would use it, as the only reliable way to get threat on the first set of adds, is to land a BB combo. Anything else they will run around and tail whip the healers to death.

I would say the best warrior tanks switch their cross class skills based on the fight they are about to encounter.

Also @ OP, anyone telling you not to use Berserk for any reason is p dumb, especially a class that can esuna it off.
You can make a Berserk Macro that helps time up the Esuna where it warns them about 1 second before you are about to become pacified. But this is not necessary.

We'll I mostly meant on hate grab. With berserk and unchained overpower is stupid good over flash that does no damage at all.

I like flash quite a lot actually. I find it very useful in a number of situations,(like getting a voice while picking up adds in T7) more so than other skills. However you can always look at it like this. Provoke is a MUST, Convalence and IR are both awesome. There's three right right there. The other two are personal preference. I like Flash and either FF or second wind depending on the fight. However in second coil mobs cannot miss from what i hear(guess i already assumed it lulz) so that would make second wind better. The other skills are all pretty useless. I mean come on... not even paladins use awareness XD

One thing to note... the more damage output you have(buffs, str, weapon damage,ect, ect) the more enmity Flash generates even though it is considered a magic skill

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Originally Posted by Grembo

Steel Cyclone?

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flash is good for sr, if you want. steel cyclone i guess you could use, on the first mob lol. flash is good like rhais said for running by and flashing if theyre not grouped well and steelscyclone is best on a big mob where you can get the max healing from it, especially if youre healer needs help or dps is slow

It should be in a WAR's cross class set for sure. Easy enough to slip in between Overpower or whatever else, doesn't use TP, can be used during pacification, it also blinds mobs (nobody seems to have mentioned this). You can certainly get away with not using it, but it does add a little more utility to Warrior, plus it's basically a free skill by using MP, and what exactly would you substitute it with?

Steel cyclone has it's place too, but I usually save it for when I'm buffed through the roof with Bloodbath/Berserk/Maim, so I can maximise the damage and HP recovered.

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And to top it off I was screamed at by the healer by using Berserk. I understand there is 5s of pacification. Apparently this was HUGELY annoying to the healer, because esuna isn't supposed to be on the hot bar for some reason. I tried to argue that berserk gave me wrath, which helps me tank better. With unchained + berserk+ and bloodbath I feel is a ridiculous amount of threat and HP regen

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Haha, I just about fall off my chair when a healer proactively removes Pacification.

@ Blowfin It only Blinds on PLD. Its a trait from gladiator

overpower is a last resort for me to save tp. i use it spairingly in non speedrun dungeons. steel cyclone + 3x flash is usually enough to secure hate.

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Originally Posted by Remn

you can q up BB on first melee add but what about 2nd and 3rd melee add? you do know that you can get voice right after they spawn right? (my group got voice right after 3rd melee add pop all the time)

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Voice doesn't magically take your combo away. I preload combo on T7 adds all the time.

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Originally Posted by Xenosys

@ Blowfin It only Blinds on PLD. Its a trait from gladiator

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I see, I was thinking last night after posting that it was a bit wrong. I ran some dungeons on GLD not too long ago so probably saw it occur there.

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Originally Posted by Killabye

steelscyclone is best on a big mob where you can get the max healing from it, especially if youre healer needs help or dps is slow

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:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

I think that roughly translates to: On big pulls Steel cyclone up front is a waste when you can load it up with Berserk/Bloodbath/etc. and heal yourself for a couple of thousand HP.