Twin Adder and the Double Frontlines

The way the map is designed in PvP is flawed due to the no rotations on spawn locations for each faction. Twin Adder will always spawn to the North which automatically creates a double front for them. They have to fight off both sides at the same time at the Markets and Manor. (At least this is the way it is on my server.) Maelstorm and Immortal Flames almost never go against each other to the south because if they did they would be "letting" Twin Adder gain an advantage.

The locations of all the capture points need to be adjusted as well. Having the three spawn locations in a line to the north is more efficient for team members to move between than the three triangle formation spawns to the south.

People do stray away from the "norms" and it's not always the same, but the way the map is designed is flawed for Twin Adder. It's just unfair to have non-rotational spawn points.

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Originally Posted by Aramyth

The way the map is designed in PvP is flawed due to the no rotations on spawn locations for each faction. Twin Adder will always spawn to the North which automatically creates a double front for them. They have to fight off both sides at the same time at the Markets and Manor. (At least this is the way it is on my server.) Maelstorm and Immortal Flames almost never go against each other to the south because if they did they would be "letting" Twin Adder gain an advantage.

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What? No. Usually each side splits into three groups, so each side will have to fight both the other sides anyway at manor (Malestrom VS Adder), markets (Flames VS Adder) and temple (Malestrom VS Flames).

Yeaaah no...

Like Remilia said, all teams are faced on both sides with opposition. There's nothing unfair about the map.

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Originally Posted by Aramyth

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What? Every group has to split into two different teams.
Adder are not special, both other GC have to fight off people from both sides.

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Maelstorm and Immortal Flames almost never go against each other to the south because if they did they would be "letting" Twin Adder gain an advantage.

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I would love to have some of what you are smoking, thats some pretty tinfoil hat stuff to think that the flames and storms conspire against the adders

I took the liberty of redesigning the map so that adders wont be at the top, i think this is a very good change because storms are #1

http://i.imgur.com/Wam4aSM.jpg

The map is the same for every side i don't understand this thread ?_?

I think the Twin Adders are slowly becoming aware of the secret Immortal Flames and Maelstrom alliance.

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Originally Posted by Akoree

I think the Twin Adders are slowly becoming aware of the secret Immortal Flames and Maelstrom alliance.

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'Til Sea and Flames swallow all Adders!

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...picard-812.jpg

Thank you, OP! You've lighten up my day!
*goes away to roll on the floor some more while choking on his own laughter*

Thankfully I am on the south west side. That puts me at an advantage!!!!

OP's logic is totally flawed, but it does in fact seem like there have been, several (like lots actually) of battles where if I go scouting as an adder thoughout the battle this is what I see:

1-2 full parties of flames at markets (at beginning this makes potential sense). But many times, more than 10 remain at markets/pushing the Adder OP for the rest of the round.
1-2 full parties of maels at Manors (again at beginning this makes potential sense)....but once again, if they claim it, they tend to park 1+ parties on the flag.

Meanwhile, each of these teams also sends 1-2 parties worth of folk up Mid for nodes.

Now, this happens OFTEN. And in the SAME match.
This means: if you look further.

Typically 0-3 people are at any of their OP's.
Typically 0-3 people are at Suntemple.

So...you really don't want to know how many times I've stolen both OP's and the Suntemple due to this.

But logic would dictate, that if Maels noticed 'hey look flames are beating on Adders' they'd go after Suntemple. Or vise versa. But they don't. There have been times when joint forces from both Flames and Adders came in, claimed markets, let the '2nd place team grab flag' and ride off...NOT ATTACKING EACHOTHER.

Yesterday, this happened 6 matches in a row for me. The first 2 I was like WTH? How can be be fighting 2+ parties at both bases constantly+how do they knowingly see they have 1 party up top each and not attack eachother...why aren't they fighting eachother...we have like 200 points, they have 900 and 1100...shouldn't they be more focused on killing each other for 1st at this point? Then I went snooping (mostly cause we needed something, anything to claim for points at this point), and saw, as I said above, the 3 posts: Flames OP, Suntemple, Storms OP= no defense (Suntemple had 1 lone SCH). 6 matches in a row same thing, everytime, double-zerg Adders, don't fight eachother. Also interestingly, the 1st place wins between the Flames/Maels went back and forth...so they both one 3x, and came in second 3x (although by the 6th match turns out your 'loser bonus exp' is + than 2nd place....)

So while the OP's logic is horridly flawed (on paper, we ALL have the same 3-way battle), there is something fishy going on with 2 enemy teams working together to purposefully lock out the other team so consistantly.

Maybe the Adders are just too strong to take on 1:1....maybe there's some weird inter-alliance win trading going on....maybe both those teams are beyond dumb and can't figure out when they both are pushing the same team to re-direct and steal from the actual threat/hold their posts...dunno. But some strange stuff is happening to the adders.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

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Lots of matches i've been in had adders throwing 2 parties at manors and flames throwing 2 parties at sun temple, its just how matches turn out sometimes

I dont think to myself "omg tinfoil hat alliance between flames and adders" i think "time to snipe their outpost and then hope my team can take manors/temple back while they chase me away"

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

Yesterday, this happened 6 matches in a row for me.

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Holy crap, I am glad I am not the only one who noticed this.

In the past few days, I've been frequently experiencing the same circumstances. I am in Adders as well and it really looks like certain Maelstrom and Flames teams are trading wins. They don't attack each other. Adders was in first place with like 1200pts with Maelstrom and Flames at 800 (~10 pt difference between them). Flames kept attacking us when they could've attacked Maelstrom for second place. Meanwhile, we're busy fighting off flames and Maelstrom climbs to first place. And then they both attack us at the same time! Next match: Maelstrom does it for Flames instead!

It really seems like there are premades on both Maelstrom and Flames working together, or they just reallllllly dislike Adders but given their coordination, it's not very likely.

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Originally Posted by CeveArthu

Lots of matches i've been in had adders throwing 2 parties at manors and flames throwing 2 parties at sun temple, its just how matches turn out sometimes

I dont think to myself "omg tinfoil hat alliance between flames and adders" i think "time to snipe their outpost and then hope my team can take manors/temple back while they chase me away"

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Normally, I'd totally agree with you, which is why I started riding around (to grab the flags they obviously did NOT have guarded). As I too think, when that happens it's just the luck of the draw that match. What I found confusing, and what 'red flag'd' me was when on different occasions, I'd see Red and Blue come to take back lets say Manors, kill us all, Maels would get claim, and Flames would ride off...unattacked and w/o attacking the Maels. And what made even less sense, is typically when I would see this, we were the losing team...if anything, they should be leaving Adders alone and fighting each other... THAT is when I was like....okay, this is odd.

I also think that if you an I can deduce, 'gee, we seem to be fighting 2 parties on both fronts here, lets go steal their OPs to lessen the pressure' The other teams can figure that out too. Or if you're neck and neck for 1st and 2nd, and 3rd is waaaay behind, why keep poking them, go attack number 1's bases. But they aren't doing this. Instead, from start-end of match, no matter what the places/scores, they are simply keeping more than 1 full party at both Manors and Markets, and at least a full party up top. (they let the respawn reclaim their OP's as necessary).

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Originally Posted by hours

It really seems like there are premades on both Maelstrom and Flames working together, or they just reallllllly dislike Adders but given their coordination, it's not very likely.

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I'm not in your datacenter, but you might be partially right. Does/did Adder have a rep for cleaning house? If so, it's not strange for the other teams to wanna put extra effort in putting you down. I wouldn't take it as an insult either. You might be dealing with coordinated premades, for sure, but Flames don't make deals with rotten sea whores. xP

EDIT: Also, I feel like if there really was some weird massive win-trade conspiracy going on, they would try to put you out of the game first before you got that many points. D:

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Originally Posted by hours

or they just reallllllly dislike Adders

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Due the huge amount of healers Adders usually have this sounds like totally valid reason, usually all their 3 alliances have 4 healers while immortals have one or none unless someone is willing to change and i assume same goes with maelstorm.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

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Let's put it this way, we're known as the "Twin Badders". I am not certain about Adders alliances that play during timezones different from my own and while I personally have a significantly more favorable win:loss ratio, my team mates tend to always say that "Adders always loses" and "I've won only 10/70 times".

I didn't mention that they both used the same strategy that was too much of a coincidence. Adders was ahead only because both Flames and Maelstrom sat at their spawn points for the first couple of minutes while we captured every base uncontested. When the Node was close to spawning, one of the GC's would take their entire pool of people to zerg us while the other GC would take their/our bases and kill us off in mid. Rinse and repeat. And then this strategy was rinsed and repeated over and over again in subsequent matches with Flames and Maelstrom taking turns at first place.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Due the huge amount of healers Adders usually have this sounds like totally valid reason, usually all their 3 alliances have 4 healers while immortals have one or none unless someone is willing to change and i assume same goes with maelstorm.

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That's interesting because it's pretty difficult getting healers during the times I play at. Meanwhile, Flames and Maelstrom stack their 6+ healer parties......

I hardly believe there is something like that happening.
People are just farming Frontlines, the rewards from being 2nd or 3rd are too genereous to bother doing something like what you are suggesting.

We cannot take OUR personal experience into consideration and project our analysis based only on that. There are days where Maelstrom wins a lot, while there are others where we fail like we were a bunch of constipated headless chickens. It all depends on the people playing at the time, and their skills.

Anything else is purely tinfoil hat stuff.

In my PvP experiences in Frontlines, Dang Adders always win. Even if they are down by 800 points, still somehow they always win.

That's just me though.

but in Tonberry , Adders often lose......sadly

On Excalibur (Primal datacenter), we have a pretty high win-rate as the Maelstrom but I've found both the flames and adders to fight adequately. Anyone on our datacenter claiming that their team is being bullied and never wins because the other two GC never attack each-other is either a troll or a sore loser trying find excuses... I also find it hard to believe this would be happening to anyone on any other datacenter.

Focus on holding your flags and playing well, stories GCs sending two full parties to defend one flag while the other one within their reach is unclaimed and defended are very hard to believe.

I still have to use this picture:

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...ta9c1Ta-kg74uQ

Come on Adders. This is a three ways battle. Each GC will anticipate their goal depending on the current score.. If you are the type player that is actually attempting to steal Outpost, you will see Immortal Flames and Malestorm do attack each other.....

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Originally Posted by Akoree

On Excalibur (Primal datacenter), we have a pretty high win-rate as the Maelstrom but I've found both the flames and adders to fight adequately. Anyone on our datacenter claiming that their team is being bullied and never wins because the other two GC never attack each-other is either a troll or a sore loser trying find excuses... I also find it hard to believe this would be happening to anyone on any other datacenter.

Focus on holding your flags and playing well, stories GCs sending two full parties to defend one flag while the other one within their reach is unclaimed and defended are very hard to believe.

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Yes, normally on OUR data center you're right, it's just luck of the draw. What we were explicitly pointing out is an abnormality that we noticed happening in back to back matches, no change in pattern ...and NO attacking of the other two teams against eachother. You can say 'well, they were after the weak link' and that might be all that was happening...but why in the world would your team know it's within 100 points of the first place team, and 500 points ahead of the last place team, keep punching last place, and IGNORE the winning opposing team (that was smaller in force at said contested flag by the way and would have been easy to take out) let them claim a base and move on...without fighting. Why would they do this?

Also, the flags are all claimed, they're just not contesting them. Meaning, they don't pick on each other, the only time they were fighting was if they were fighting the Adders. They didn't even attack each other up top in mid.

Yes, they could seriously be that dumb. But really, I'd actually rather hope they were working together than that stupid. And I agree it would take a lot (I hope) to get enough cogs right in the system to effectively win-trade in frontlines. (I mean you'd have to somehow manage to get 2+ parties for opposing sides in each match, and then convince the others to follow suit)...tough sell.

And don't get me wrong, I've seen some plain old 'stupid' too. Last night when I was attempting to solo-claim the Storm OP from the lone smn guarding it...I had the smn to 10% health and personally had, 80% health, 3 flames roll in. Now, the logical thing to do (since claiming the flag>kills) would have been for the 3 of them to stand on the flag, and help me kill smn, then turn around and zerg me. As 1. SMN almost dead anyway 2. They outnumber me so flag is theres whether they kill me or not. 3. A WHM is a harder kill/but i'd have to claim the base too so I either have to run to save myself (meaning they get the base) or stand my ground most likely being killed (3vs1). Instead the morons, zerg me first=no base claim for them or me they and then run off chasing the SMN who has lead them to backup and they (the Flames) get killed too....because the time they wasted killing me was enough time for the smn to -re heal, + get within distance of a small Mael team. So not only did they not claim the flag, but they ran away from it and fought in the open zone, not even close to it. Even if those same people got there as they killed the SMN (had they killed them first), The Storms would have had to decide if they want to kill me (adder) or them (flames first) Likely, I'd be first target which could have bought the flames enough time to still claim said flag. But no, they lost it...due to stupid.

Also, I didn't say we 'never' win. I basically said on 2 different occasions over this weekend in several back-to-back matches some 'odd crap was happening' ...I'm fully aware that leaves over 150matches I have done that seemed like everything was more or less 'normal', and I don't have 150 wins/10 losses. Currently my Highest % for victories is 2nd place. I fully know and accept the adders are fully capable of screwing themselves to 3rd w/o any assistance needed from the other to Factions. (because we are that awesome we can lose without other enemies on the field). So it's not 'poor sportsmanship' or 'gee, they really gang up on us and we have no hope' and really did come from a 'huh, what the hell is going on?' place.

PS: One of the hot fixes today WAS in fact to address some forms of cheating happening in Frontlines, so while yes, I might have been mis-reading an innocent pattern and really just had some unlucky, unskilled derps in those matches with a strong vendetta against the adders....there is obviously enough foul play going on in frontlines for SE to be addressing the issue.

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Originally Posted by Aramyth

The way the map is designed in PvP is flawed due to the no rotations on spawn locations for each faction. Twin Adder will always spawn to the North which automatically creates a double front for them. They have to fight off both sides at the same time at the Markets and Manor ... the way the map is designed is flawed for Twin Adder. It's just unfair to have non-rotational spawn points.

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http://i.imgur.com/GClCZbf.jpg

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Originally Posted by Gor

http://i.imgur.com/GClCZbf.jpg

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What? pls just don't...

this thread needs a bump

Since this thread is all about conspiracies, here's mine.

In 10% of the frontlines matches I'm in (as Maelstrom), this conversation appears as part of the strategy:

"Let's rape Kan-E!"
"Yeah!!"
"Yarr"
"Raaaape!!"
"What about Nanamo?"
"Uhh, don't say that out loud?"

So maybe, just maybe some people took it wrongly and thought we're allied with Flames.

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Originally Posted by Poringing

Since this thread is all about conspiracies, here's mine.

In 10% of the frontlines matches I'm in (as Maelstrom), this conversation appears as part of the strategy:

"Let's rape Kan-E!"
"Yeah!!"
"Yarr"
"Raaaape!!"
"What about Nanamo?"
"Uhh, don't say that out loud?"

So maybe, just maybe some people took it wrongly and thought we're allied with Flames.

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We'd all tap that Raubahn tho

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Originally Posted by hours

That's interesting because it's pretty difficult getting healers during the times I play at. Meanwhile, Flames and Maelstrom stack their 6+ healer parties......

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Out of almost 150 battles as a Flame, I've never seen a party with more than 4 healers. Hell, the first minute behind the barrier at the start, 9 times out of 10, there's always arguments or sarcastic remarks about people telling others to change their classes to healers.

if you in fact saw a 6+ healer party, that's most likely only at the beginning at Manor or at mid because there are two parties there with 3 healers each; that is not our doing, that's how the queuing system put them so blame rng. and yea, i typically have to berate people to get them to go heals. if i see that i'm the only healer when i zone in, i won't stop doing it until someone swaps and it typically works. same thing if we get loaded with tanks. i refuse to let us go out the gate with a fail role setup. especially if i get the Manor group because 9 times out of 10, Manor is not solo healable.

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Originally Posted by Gor

if you in fact saw a 6+ healer party, that's most likely only at the beginning at Manor or at mid because there are two parties there with 3 healers each; that is not our doing, that's how the queuing system put them so blame rng. and yea, i typically have to berate people to get them to go heals. if i see that i'm the only healer when i zone in, i won't stop doing it until someone swaps and it typically works. same thing if we get loaded with tanks. i refuse to let us go out the gate with a fail role setup. especially if i get the Manor group because 9 times out of 10, Manor is not solo healable.

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Personally i just say: Im not going to be solo healing this. Ill switch to a SCH/Group up otherwise im going as a DPS/Solo SCH.
It tends to work, and if people dont listen i just have fun anyways :3

I was gonna post some stuff, but then I realized I'd be giving away the Maelstrong's secret sauce of victory! 'Til Sea Swallows All!

But really, if the Badders and Lames want to get more wins, then they need to establish order and come up with more adaptive strategies and get rid of tunnel vision.