Should it really be this difficult?

I've attempted Thornmarch extreme, Garuda extreme, and Ultimate Ballad numerous times and have yet to complete any of them. I know it doesn't help my chances any by using the Duty Finder but I'm a very awkward human being that has a hard time speaking to random people in chat so I can't think of any other way to approach these trials. But even still, are these trials really that hard that a group put together by the Duty Finder can't beat them?

I haven't been to Thornmarch Extreme, but the problem you run into in DF parties for both Garuda EX and Ultima HM is that there's a hard DPS check in the form of an unavoidable full raid wipe. Too many of your DPS derp and bite it, you aren't making those DPS checks. Ultima HM's Ifrit phase is notorious for killing DPS and healers alike, and don't even get me started on the amount of crap that can kill you in Garuda... I've beaten Ultima HM in DF, but only after several tries. Garuda EX took a lot of doing for me to clear. Like, weeks of trying. x_x

The best I can advise is to try to find a couple of close friends or FC mates and put up a party finder for it. My first win in both of these trials was in a party built entirely from my FC and a linkshell that I'm in.

Unfortunately, "difficult" is a subjective term.

I agree with what Wyntir said, tho - most of the time we define "difficult" something that just "requires awareness and knowledge". This is good, as in a game (EVERY game) you should have a fairly big chance to "lose" if you don't learn how to play properly. And this is such a case.

Garuda Extreme proved to be rather painful for myself. Granted, I attempted with a melee DPS and essentially regretted life after that (no, seriously, tornadoes are your enemy).

As for Ultima's Bane, I don't know where your struggle is.
I had a couple of wipes and it actually ended up being my fault that we didn't get by Ultima (e.g., I limit broke on the second phase, I didn't limit break at all, I essentially failed so hard that my family would probably be shamed, but this was as a tank), but otherwise I have very little problems with Ultima if people just understand to get together and spread the damage.

From personal experience:
Ultima HM is not that hard, but people get lost when the orbs come. I've wiped soooo many times at that point, which is ridiculous because the fight's almost over.
Garuda EX: Dps checks.
Moggle EX: There are many factors. Dps accidentally kill an enemy/don't stop WHM and BLM, Healers don't Esuna debuffs during combos... but sometimes it's just bad luck. If the wrong Mog gets the buffs, it becomes incredibly more complicated. When Mog rain can OHKO even with stoneskin on, it's a mess.

Ultima HM (Really, more like Ultima EX - since l50 content is the "hard" version of fights anyway) is a dodging/coordination check. It's fairly easy, but few people skilled enough to do it will actually bother to do it because its rewards are so low-value.

Garuda EX, rather than the DPS checks I'm hearing from others, is more of a tank check in my opinion - the tanks' abilities to manage the adds, take control of positioning, etc., is really, really important, and it's the first fight that really requires that from tanks to boot. It's not a terribly hard fight, but it's the first EX Primal and many players aren't actually as ready for it as they think they are. (There are DPS checks, yes, but I usually don't see groups have problems with them until Titan)

Thornmarch EX is a nightmare. I know many people well into second coil who refuse to touch the fight again, largely because there's so many variables in what goes on that people really do need a full understanding of the fight in order to have a chance. I do know someone who got a clear via Duty Finder, but all I really have to say is 'good luck'.

"I hate this fight somewhere deep in my soul."
-- random DPS on my first Thornmarch EX clear

The reason people hate this Trial is because there are checks for every role that when missed = instant wipe and they happen repeatedly and at a fairly high frequency throughout the entirety of the fight.
Tank doesn't position King correctly = dead.
Healers don't remove debuffs = dead.
DPS don't stop Flare or Holy (or heavens forbid kill a moogle early) = dead.
Then there's the fairly strict DPS check at the end (getting him down to 0.01% and wiping = priceless)

Then on a more personal side, that fight is utter HELL as a SMN..., trying to control your DoTs + your pet ;_;

If it has "Extreme" in the name, it's probably going to be difficult.

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Originally Posted by OronaminC

I've attempted Thornmarch extreme, Garuda extreme, and Ultimate Ballad numerous times and have yet to complete any of them. I know it doesn't help my chances any by using the Duty Finder but I'm a very awkward human being that has a hard time speaking to random people in chat so I can't think of any other way to approach these trials. But even still, are these trials really that hard that a group put together by the Duty Finder can't beat them?

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Every Ex can be killed in DF , it frustating and may take up to few "days" to take each , but actually if you got good understanding of mechanics (you know you got , when DF ppl's die on same stuff and you not lol ) can join or make PF . I done all 5 trials + ultima wins in DF (Ultima even before echo) , so if want go hard DF way - feel free and you may get in that win PT

Thornmarch was actually the easiest primal EX for my FC and alongside leviathan is probably the only one every one of us likes. A big part of it is realizing that combos happen whenever the king speaks and that everyone really only has to focus on a few things individually. There is also the fact that the DPS check is only at the end and works differently in that it can be extremely generous as long as your DPS can control themselves throughout the rest of the fight.

Garuda EX can blow if your tanks are bad or your DPS don't pay attention. It also doesn't help that a lot of people do it in such a way that insta-kills melee or tanks that aren't used to the fight.

Ultima is only annoying when people don't pay attention to stuff going on around them or if they get scared of running into the orbs. I have found it helps to mark someone and make sure everyone follows them for the orbs.

These fights arent that hard, The issue lies with the ease of grouping.

Being able to click a checkbox and get a group of people you will never see again has detrimental effects.
Especially with a lot of the community not having an MMO background.

These are fights, that have choreographed mechanics, so each time you're generally getting someone that has no idea what that mechanic is, hence wipe.
Unlike other MMOs where party finding was tied to the users on the server, this would lead to a player getting a bad reputation.
Here, not the case. So bad can keep happening.

Dungeons, yeah, you can generally figure out along the way, but Titan EX, Garuda EX, people coming in blind? you might as well throw the 90 minutes out the door.
DF is great for gathering people, but it does have its drawbacks.

I'd say try to find atleast one or two pals, I know it can be hard, but it will make your DF chances better.

If it helps, I have beaten both Leviathan EX and Moggle EX on DF. I've found them easier than the first 3 primals (still stuck on titan ex lol)

The content pretty much is that difficult. Hell a number of the endgame content punishes you for being too geared/having too much echo, because of how heavily scripted the fights are (good luck with Titan EX where pushing a phase tends to be a death sentence or at the very least make the fight harder than before).

This speaks nothing of how poorly optimized their content is for the server structure. Seeing as all the content is based on pin point accuracy in execution of abilities and dodging mechanics, yet the server has all final say on what happens, you get a big disaster in the making.

On top of this everything is based around the idea of least common denominator player, meaning you're ability to succeed in anything is solely dependent on the worst member of your group considering how tight most fights are a single person who keeps dying (or from what I've seen, a single anyone having a small slip up) causes the group to wipe.

Really this endgame is difficult, but in all the wrong and most unfair of ways. I've literally never seen so many people frustrated doing endgame before because of just minor slip ups. Hell I've never played a game where being out of an AoE with a solid 30% left on the cast bar means you're probably gonna get hit still because the server goes faster than your internet will allow (and no we're not talking lag or drop in FPS, we're talking 100% smooth playing).

This all just a lot of small issues that amount to one huge headache. Bottom line, future developers will need to look at this game and realize server side handling is bad news for an MMO especially if you want anything to be even remotely tight and difficult.

I have beaten Garuda EX and that is it! XD I know the other fights thoroughly because of DF and watching videos on my own time, but I have yet to find a group that has successfully beaten Titan EX or thornmarch EX. (this goes for PF as well) I personally don't think either fight is really all that difficult as it boils down to just knowing the mechanics of the fights. The "difficulty" lies with making sure everyone in your group is on the same page when doing these fights. I have a alot of patience and can deal with wiping over and over as long as I get a win eventually, but something I run into that makes all these fights IMPOSSIBLE, is after just a couple of wipes, people start leaving! I HATE THAT! I get it, but I hate it! Just draws things out longer.

This game relies way to much on other people to be perfect in order for you to progress. If it didn't everyone would have beaten all the content within a couple days of its release. Savage coil included.

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Originally Posted by Vladislav

Every Ex can be killed in DF , it frustating and may take up to few "days" to take each , but actually if you got good understanding of mechanics (you know you got , when DF ppl's die on same stuff and you not lol ) can join or make PF . I done all 5 trials + ultima wins in DF (Ultima even before echo) , so if want go hard DF way - feel free and you may get in that win PT

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Titan Ex
DF

....

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it frustating and may take up to few "months"

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4 month actually, 5 tries (groups) a day.

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Originally Posted by Jamez82

This game relies way to much on other people to be perfect in order for you to progress. If it didn't everyone would have beaten all the content within a couple days of its release. Savage coil included.

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some groups are quite close to perfect on current content but I don't think the coil savage has been downed further than T6.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

some groups are quite close to perfect on current content but I don't think the coil savage has been downed further than T6.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0DOpKp6Cg

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Originally Posted by CompSci88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H0DOpKp6Cg

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heh nice I didn't know this group ^^

only T9 left to go then

In Ultima HM usually:
1) people have no idea that running in purple orbs together split damage and they try to avoid those orbs at all cost
2) during Ifrit phase people don't realise that it is actually Ifrit not plumes killing them
3) sometimes in the party even both tanks don't know that only tank use lb in this fight because you can't survive 3rd cast of Aetheric "boom" something otherwise.

Garuda ex usually is fail due to lame tanks that target adds at pillars before Reckoning and can't decide who, when and where to take which add on Spiny plume phase. And of course there are some DPS that will kill Spiny plume instantly and don't understand any branch of human language when people beg them not to kill it.

Moogle ex. Not an expert of Moogle ex myself because I have just tried it once. Joined learning party last week with 3 fc members that had killed it before and fc tank who also hadn't seen it before. We killed it after 3 or 4 wipes, everyone seemed surprised we did it but generally the fight seemed rather simple and probably it is most pressing for the healers here. The hardest part seemed to be for tanks to keep distance far enough from each other to not get king buffing everything and for healers to massively heal tanks and confused dps. As a dps I seemed to actually have the easiest job there - simply focus target healer moogle, get all moogles below 10% hp and interrupt blm and healer moogle casts.

I have yet to beat Titan ex and Leviathan ex though and they seem to be hard for a rather weird reason - every time we seem to get good group and die with boss having less than 25% there is one moron who instantly ragequit. Seriously, with 2 or three wipes we could have killed it with the force of Echo alone but there is never chance for that while people never rage quit if we die with boss having more than 50% hp left...

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Originally Posted by Adler

In Ultima HM usually:
3) sometimes in the party even both tanks don't know that only tank use lb in this fight because you can't survive 3rd cast of Aetheric "boom" something otherwise.

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You do not need it tbh... It's just supposed to be idiot proof (you need party coordination and good heals if not)

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Moogle ex.

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horrible for tanks to avoid thief getting stacks. horrible for healers for obvious reasons. DPS are easy piece of cake.

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I have yet to beat Titan ex and Leviathan ex though and they seem to be hard for a rather weird reason - every time we seem to get good group and die with boss having less than 25% there is one moron who instantly ragequit. Seriously, with 2 or three wipes we could have killed it with the force of Echo alone but there is never chance for that while people never rage quit if we die with boss having more than 50% hp left...

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for Titan it's easy to explain : a group that can't be at heart without echo won't beat titan.
A group that fail 3 times to pass heart won't beat Titan.

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Originally Posted by AlexPayne

If it has "Extreme" in the name, it's probably going to be difficult.

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Not really. Lev Ex is Extremely easy.

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Originally Posted by Xenolithium

Not really. Lev Ex is Extremely easy.

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To be frank, I have to quote this thing from my in game friend that says about Titan EX, but I guess it can be changed to Primal EX:

"Primal EX is not difficult. What is difficult, is dealing with the boss's 7 adds"

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Originally Posted by Xenolithium

Not really. Lev Ex is Extremely easy.

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Levi EX is down to three factors:
1. Is everyone capable of recognising where they need to be during dives/slams so as to Not Die?
2. Are the DPS good enough to successfully down Spumes in time? (This DPS check I see a lot of DF and even many PF groups fail)
3. Is your PLD actually capable of chainstunning the Hysteria add well enough (Or, barring a PLD, are your DPS not braindead and capable of understanding a stun rotation).

Extreme in this game means that one slip up of one member during the key mechanic of the fight can cause a wipe. This can be frustrating especially as the difficulty is basically not caused by high dmg output of bosses, adds... but the perfection of your positioning and movement.
his is my first MMO where such a huge role plays movement. Usually the difficulty was in boss dmg output or party's dmg, which was related to gear and using your skills more than focusing on move at certain moments :)


People rely way too much on Echo, which in fact does not solve anything (unless your dps is really undergeared and unable to push through dps checks) but rather causes funny situations with script issues.
Majority of the time it is a person being 1 second late with getting out of range -> irreversable KO , not healer unable to top the party, tank not using buffs correctly or dps dealing unsufficient damage.

It is however the way this game is designed and in fact I find it fun! Even with the best gear you will still need to concentrate during those fights (unless they nerf them anytime soon) :)

Hi all, I have just unlocked Moogle EX but have yet to try it. I did watch a couple of the videos out there (MTQ and Happy). One of the key things they both said as a DPS is to make sure that the WHM and BLM moogle are interrupted. Given that you can only FocusTarget one mob at a time, how do you keep an eye on both of them?

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Originally Posted by SpecialKK

Hi all, I have just unlocked Moogle EX but have yet to try it. I did watch a couple of the videos out there (MTQ and Happy). One of the key things they both said as a DPS is to make sure that the WHM and BLM moogle are interrupted. Given that you can only FocusTarget one mob at a time, how do you keep an eye on both of them?

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My group always have one ranged DPS designated for each mog having it on focus target. For safety reasons you can agree on additional person who will help dpsing particular mog. Also it is relatively easy to notice that one is casting his OP skill.

I have not attempted tanking garuda ex I usually go as the job I initially beat it as, that being said: shoulder tackle as mnk > what tornados?

Re: the monk who said tornados are a pain, something along those lines