I was reading the 4gamer interview and I read something that caught my attention with regards to why attributes have such a slight effect:
"Matsui: As we move towards getting rid of the physical level, we’re making adjustments to the underlying game formulas. However, we know the person who was in charge of them before worked really hard on the parameter allocations. For example, they worked hard to figure out how to make a character with a physical level of 50 still play in a balanced way in a class where they are ranked 1."
I think the old development team made attributes have a very small effect on performance compared to class rank. It's not that they are broken, it was by design that their contribution are nearly insignificant. They possibly chose to use this method of balance.
In that quote they also mention that those formulas will be changed along with the removal of physical levels so it's very likely we can expect that 1.19 will finally make attributes relevant.
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07-26-2011, 03:20 PMKenseiI think I know why attributes don't seem to have much effect.
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07-26-2011, 03:24 PMFiron
It's cause the D-LeveL fatcor is to high that most stats don't matter like if a mob is 21 lvls over you, your stats don't matter i see your arc is 39 go a shoot an lvl 1 mob and see how much dmg you do, same thing for mobs if they are to many lvls high they do stupid dmg.
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07-26-2011, 03:28 PMKensei
What exactly is a D-LeveL factor?
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07-26-2011, 03:35 PMFiron
Ill try to use borderlands as an example you ever try to fight a mob in the game when you are lvl 10 and it's lvl 17. The lvl gap just wont let you win its all about lvl and not stats. Like i said before it basically the difference between you and the mobs lvl and the more you or the mob is above the targets lvl the less that mob or player stats do.
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07-26-2011, 03:37 PMFiron
Just go shoot an Lvl one mob and shoot an R39 mob. The dmg boost is retarded i have been hit for 6k dmg before and that does not make sense.
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07-26-2011, 03:42 PMKensei
Yeah I have in fact attacked level 1 mobs and hit them for 2k+ and I was surprised but I thought it was because of how much more strength I had than when I fought in those areas when I was starting out. I didn't think it was designed to be based on level gap.
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07-26-2011, 03:45 PMTheVedissounds like something yugioh relatedQuote:
Originally Posted by Kensei
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07-26-2011, 03:49 PMScape
seems like they almost had to make stats not matter much with the route they decided to take. They probably didn't want people with phys50 to be OMGWTF stronger then someone with a lower phys level.
All I know is, something is definitely wrong when people can say "I took off 100 dex and noticed no difference". And, maybe off topic, but why do stats like VIT on gear not raise HP? MND on gear not raise MP? huh? wha? -
07-26-2011, 03:56 PMFironlook at this vid this is what happens when a mob is wayy higher lvl than you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSI-4eg8ezgQuote:
Originally Posted by Kensei
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07-26-2011, 03:56 PMwindAlthough I do hate it as well rofl, MND on gear still does somthing people can actually see atleast. VIT/DEX are hard to actually see real time changes to. PIE you can see a decent amount of difference as you get higher as well for dots at least, in terms of DMG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scape
MND on gear will raise healing by a few points. For every 5mnd it transfers to 3 healing points(.6/1mnd). Also Mag. Pot can be seen changing healing as well. For every 10 mag point = 4 healing points(.4/1mpot).
Obviously values aren't amazing but at least you can see changes... wish it was the same for all the other stat values. -
07-26-2011, 03:59 PMScape
ya, I know VIT on gear adds defense and MND on gear will add cure potency(and magic defense?). So, they are still doing something. But VIT also raises HP and MND raises MP, both which do not happen if they are on gear. idk, its what the stats do so I feel they should do it, and really can't find a reason why they shouldn't. kinda cheapens some stats on gear IMO, especially on accessories.
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07-26-2011, 04:00 PMwind
Ya I understand what you're saying. Just glad they arent 100% useless.. just pretty useless :P
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07-26-2011, 05:33 PMSuzakuCMXDifference in Levels. Basically, the difference between your level and the target's level matters more than either individual level does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensei
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07-26-2011, 05:51 PMSilvahnyeah also based from what he said about it at the blue print lets just hope that it will be more felt and visible at 1.19Quote:
Character Development
Battle Attribute Allotment
When it comes to battle, class rank should, by logic, be more important than physical level. The reality of the situation, however, is that attribute point allotment is dependent upon physical level, something that is causing complications in our endeavor to improve the battle system.
In the recent battle poll (thanks to all who participated), we learned that a considerable number of players would be willing to forgo physical levels, but wanted to retain the ability to customize characters through attribute allotment. Armed with this knowledge, we proceeded to formulate the optimal solution.
The decision: attribute point allotment will no longer accompany gains in physical level, and will instead occur when characters rise in class rank. Although the amount in frequency of points awarded will be lower than previously, players will find that each point will have a more profound effect.
Algorithms
In light of changes planned for the Armoury System, the need to revise algorithms has arisen. At the same time, we will also carry out the changes below in order to streamline areas made overly complicated.
Abolishing the rounding formula based on standard rank values *1
Optimizing the value ranges for the influence of attributes *2
Many in-game elements are known to influence algorithms, and we are working on identifying them all regardless of the extent of their impact.
We believe that the above changes will allow players to more keenly feel and appreciate the myriad benefits offered by magic and equipment, which will lead to a new depth of enjoyment in attributes.
*1 The algorithm whereby values associated with rank are rounded up or down to be as close to the standard as possible.
*2 The system whereby enhancing statuses (whether obtained through attribute allotment, equipment, or magic) are influenced by incremental sets of values.
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07-26-2011, 05:53 PMSuzakuCMXWhen they remove physical levels and add class-specific allocations, it will change. I think the removal of physical level is in 1.19 or 1.20 though, but they might hold it off until jobs (which are 1.20+)Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvahn
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07-26-2011, 05:56 PMRentahamsterRemoval of physical level is in 1.19, and it can't come soon enough (as long as it means that stats actually make a difference.)Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
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07-26-2011, 05:58 PMPhysic
stats actually matter a lot, but its pretty complex, and people dont fully understand it. there is scaling due to level, level differences, stat caps, and various other things at play here. but be certain your stats has a very noticeable effect. go level as a level 1 starting and level with a level 50 physical level as a level 1, you ll see a lot of difference, go reset your stats to 0 and compare them to a fully allotted chr, you ll also see a lot of difference.
Its simply hard to pinpoint due to dlevel, stat caps, soft caps, and etc. -
07-26-2011, 05:59 PMPhysici think you will be half dissapointed, i think it will make each stat have a specific greater effect, and they wont have to use stat caps, unless they want to, but i think dlevel will remain as an overal multiplier of dmg taken and dmg done to targets. but we shall see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rentahamster
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07-26-2011, 06:36 PMSuzakuCMXThe reason we have d-Level now is because you can have a Level 50 character with a ton of stats with a Rank 1 class. If stats mattered more right now, that would be incredibly broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
With class-specific stats, the amount of stats allocated will largely take the place of d-Level. -
07-26-2011, 06:44 PMPhysicna, they already have caps on stats based on your current level for that purpose, for example, no matter how high your mind is, at some point i think around 30, it has no more effect on your mp pool.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
Dlevel is more about creating a modular system that can adjust creatures and players stats versus each other solely based on level.
Dlevel means that something 20 levels higher than you will always kick your ass. If you do it the other way, then you have to make it stat/gear heavy, and figure out monsters stats based relative to player expected stats and blah blah. Dlevel was in ffxi btw, and it also had an effect, though i dont think it was as direct. in this you get a strait up multiplier, that is curved.
I wont say wether they should or shouldnt get rid of dlevel, but i will say that i dont think at this point they want to. they have mentioned attribute restructuring in a lot of things, but dlevel in none, so i dont think they have any intention of messing with it. -
07-26-2011, 06:46 PMSuzakuCMXCaps and d-Level as they are now are redundant, as even with the caps, stats do next to nothing because of how strongly d-Level is weighed into an equation. It takes over 100 stat points to notice an effect on anything other than HP and MP, which is completely ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
At the very least they should make d-Level not matter so much. -
07-26-2011, 07:01 PMPhysicthis is not really accurate, but dlevel does effect how much of the stats you see come through, so it seems when fighting really hard things your stats have no effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
let me put it like this, going from 20-100 strength youll prolly see a 30% increase in strength. so if you were doing 150 dmg to a monster 10 levels higher, with 80 strength yould be doing 210.
but if you look at dlevel effects, on a monster that was 99, youd be going from 9 dmg to 12 dmg, so it seems like you dmg hasnt gone up much, but you are outputing dmg at a steady 30% higher in either case.
In pure numbers though this means someone higher than you is going to do more dmg, and take less with the exact same stats, this was the case in ffxi as well, but the curve was a lot lower, it was more of linear effect, and i think it had upper and lower limits, but i forget the exact ffxi formulas.
dlevel is more about how people are going to fare versus monsters of different levels, stats is about how they fare on anything.
Its not really redundant, its dealing with two different issues. -
07-26-2011, 08:10 PMNixiusHmm I don't think SE have ever really commented that closely on how they will modify calculations and such... although I guess the recent enmity changes is somewhat of an exception. They usually give a broad statement, something like 'attribute restructuring' could well entail a lot of algorithm adjustments that they just haven't told us. After-all attributes are something we can directly see in the game whereas D-Level is a 'hidden' attribute used in calculations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Physic
From what I can remember from FFXI (not that much now) they never really commented on any formulae even if it was spot on? Please do correct me if I am wrong I am intrigued if not =) -
07-26-2011, 08:57 PMRogue
They made it way too complicated
jus give mobs and PC fixed points based on their level and job and the whole problem dissapears, its been figured out since RPG's that were on the snes!!!!!!!!!!!!
a tank is allways going to want high vit, mrd high str, mage high mnd/int so what difference does it make being able to alot them?..
having points being allotable gives alot of variables that only bites them in the ass later when they come to ballancing
it will also take away the annoying fact you put all your points in vit when you change to your mages class's (or vice-versa) ><
i bet the current system took months if not years to just get past the design phase... and their still messing with it, possibly completely changing it!!
they could have made it much simpler and had it programmed and implemented in a month. -
07-26-2011, 09:22 PMFironGonna have to agree with suz here my when i increased my str from 50 to 90 on my pug post patch it did nothing still hit the same only thing that matters is what weapon you have equipped.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
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07-27-2011, 09:00 AMAkuun
Ha ha, I love these posts where no one knows the actual answer because they weren't there, and can't be bothered to research it.
The reason stats do jack right now, is because when they did, everyone was pumping stats to where you could kill pretty much anything.
Back at launch being under rank 20 and having 2k+ hp was the norm.
Tanaka didn't know how to fix it, so he basically removed it by gimping it to hell -
07-27-2011, 09:29 AMRydin
Q. Why do Attributes seem to have no effect?
A. Because you touch yourself at night.
Seriously though... Akuun is right, in the beginning stats mattered too much and Vit mattered and defense did very little...
SE "fixed" it in the November patch. It is the case of another overcompensation of the formulae -
07-27-2011, 09:54 AMAkuunWell yes, that's why my stats do nothing, but ya what I said for everyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rydin
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07-27-2011, 11:10 AMScape
VIT is one of the stats that actually does work.
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07-27-2011, 11:17 AMAkuunAll stats actually work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scape
The reason people have been putting more value into Vit and Mnd is because of HP and MP that comes along with it.
But if you're a damage dealer you should only have around 100 vit and str for damage should be your main focus.
Well for melee, Int for mages and Pie for dotters/debuffers.
Tanks and Healers are the only ones that should be focused on Vit and Mnd respectively. -
07-27-2011, 11:35 AMCharismatic
Okay, sheesh... since some people don't get it, when people talk about stats working and not working, just pretend they said work well instead of work.
Yes, the stats do things but nothing noticeable when they actually matter so who cares if they actually 'work' when they aren't really doing anything that someone would care about for the most part.
Now that that's out of the way, I just hope the changes to them will be enough. -
07-27-2011, 12:16 PMAkuunThe only thing noticeable with vit is the hp, the defense is even more minor than damage from str, or accuracy and evasion from from dex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charismatic
No offence but you seem to be lacking any real experience to back up what you're saying.
If you think I'm talking out my rear, look at a 50 arc with 100-150 str, vs an arc with 200 str and you'll see a very noticeable difference. At lower differences yes it's harder to tell because the damage formulas allow for a greater degree of damage variation than most mmos. -
07-28-2011, 09:06 AMCharismaticExcept you won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Akuun