Suggestion, If I may,
1. Increase enmity on Voking related skill (by large percentage)
2. Increase enmity on defese/evade related skill ( small percentage)
3. Increase enmity on attack related skill (both melee/magic) ( small percentage )
4. Increase enmity on direct damage (both melee/magic) ( by large percentage)
5. Decrease enmity on cure/curaga (by large percentage)
6. Emphasize more on enmity control skill/trait/equipment ( with the enmity in the text description)
7. Add enmity reduction slowly over time if turn to passive mode or do nothing.
Now, you can make any boss/NM as hard or as much AOE, or as tricky as you want.
All class balance. (Pretty much)
Enmity Suggestion for 1.19
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07-26-2011, 12:03 AMBlairEnmity Suggestion for 1.19
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07-26-2011, 12:04 AMThanos
no
no
no
no
no
no
no
its fine the way it is -
07-26-2011, 12:31 AMJennestia1. No, unless it decays very very quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blair
2. No, unless it decays very very quickly.
3. No, unless it decays very very quickly.
4. Melee only yeah, large percentage, no -- A decent amount that it could keep it on your dedicated tank would be fine.
5. No lol.
6. This is something that will obviously happen.
7. This depends if they use more than 1 type of enmity like FFXI, but XIV doesn't have any complex systems beyond badly coded stat algorithms.
All this does is make it easier to manage hate and let mages cure bomb with no remorse. -
07-26-2011, 12:32 AMAbriaelThis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanos
If you can't play a tank, simply don't play one instead of demanding the game to become easy and unchallenging for everyone.
The funniest part is that with autoattack and the removal of stamina even mediocre tanks are free to perfect their routines to a T. Too bad they prefer to use the saved time to scratch their rears instead. -
07-26-2011, 12:37 AMRaze
I gotta agree about how no stamina actually makes tanking easier, you basically just keep an eye on timers and when they're ready look for the golden opportunity to use them.
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07-26-2011, 12:45 AMtachikoma
no,no,no,no,no.. I like the changes. I'm sure they will balance things slightly I just hope they keep it focused and specific like it is now. Its not hard and about the cure thing:
Remember they plan to release PLD soon and PLD is almost guaranteed to get self cure and hate spike skills. Right now were in a transition and GLD can hold hate but its picky. Toss in native cure and a nice flash MP based skill for solid hate spike and I feel the emnity calc's are perfect right as they are. -
07-26-2011, 12:49 AMLeenk
This has really confused me since the update went through. So many people have been complaining about how the enmity system is 'broken'.
I'm not the best tank in the world. In FFXI, i had a close friend that tanked while i DDed. But in 14 i have joined him in tanking since we're not on at the same time as often. I've been taking suggestion from him as well as other gladiators and trying to improve my skills.
Since the update, i have very rare instances of failed mob control. Most of the time, it is simply a matter of letting the healer know that they should not be healing me unless i drop below a certain amount of health and asking them to watch their enmity indicator.
Even without wardrum (in instances where i dont want to draw unwanted agro) i dont generally have too much of an issue.
I hate to sound elitist, but when it comes to the new enmity system, you need to learn to play better or not play a tank. -
07-26-2011, 01:06 AMRaikki
An emphatic NO on all counts from me. I tanked before and after the patch, and let me tell you: easy mode enmity was extremely boring. If you increase my ability enmity and decrease cure enmity like you suggest, easy mode is what we'll have again. I'm finally starting to take some satisfaction in what I can bring to the table as a tank through effort and using my abilities strategically.
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07-26-2011, 01:09 AMSerdapi
As other have stated, No to all.
I prefer a game that rewards skill. Good tanks will hold hate, good DD's/mages will watch their hate. -
07-26-2011, 10:55 AMRentahamster
Nah, the enmity stuff is decent the way it is now. Could use a few tweaks, but it's more or less not bad.
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07-26-2011, 11:14 AMDoctorMog
I suggest you learn how to use the enmity system before you complain about it.
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07-26-2011, 11:19 AMRaim
Enmity is fine. A tank should NOT be able to hold aggro with ease without the help of his comrades. This isn't WoW where your tanks get a magical boost to their enmity that makes them nigh impossible to pull off of. In an MMO, ALL damage dealers should be forced to control their enmity generation and hold back when necessary. For example, when you see that red aggro icon, you should stop burning all your cooldowns or stop attacking briefly.
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07-26-2011, 11:39 AMAion
Maybe add more enmity for ranged attacks or spike damage?
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07-26-2011, 11:47 AMGidonoidon_Sur
Also no. Battle should be messy and difficult. I like hearing how challenging it is now.
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07-26-2011, 11:52 AMAistaraina
I am disinclined to acquiesce to your request.
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07-26-2011, 12:00 PMThanos
wow i spoke for quite a bit of people
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07-26-2011, 12:02 PMRentahamsterYou are the spokesman for the soul of FF14.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thanos
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07-26-2011, 12:06 PMThanosdo i get paid?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rentahamster
LOL@noobswhowantezmodeanddontwannalearnhowtoplay.com
email me salary offers! -
07-26-2011, 12:18 PMRentahamster
5 moko grass per hour.
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07-26-2011, 12:20 PMBaelariMore enmity for ranged attacks and spike damage? They have plenty as is. Blinking red bars are the norm for my little archer, even with the enmity down trait. Granted, I've not been trying to manage my hate in my recent exp parties, since the mages never seemed to be low on mp, and things were dying at a decent clip. Perhaps it speaks to how much damage archer can do compared to other classes? I think I might play around with stacking evasion and defensive abilities, and goofing around with being a lolarcher tank until I need to do something serious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aion
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07-26-2011, 12:38 PModetteNO the enmity now is bad, Dps made more aggro with power attacks, gla only have 2 or 3 abilities, provoke timer 20 secs is badQuote:
Originally Posted by Raim
repeat i dont want another FFXI, ffxi sucks, the reason pld only have nice abilities for hold aggro but each ability 3 minutes???? uses cure for hold hate???, now ffxi pld is usuless because they can hold aggro with high damage that dps made it -
07-26-2011, 09:33 PMBlairDoes people think before reply? Oh well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blair
When I said patch1.18 is in good direction, I meant it.
When I said patch1.18 needs some fix, I meant it too.
That fix is mainly on 'enmity' and 'class rebalance'
1. Cure/Curegra, generate too much hate, that's a fact.
It limits too much thing. If Boss(Not only Orge, but NM and others in general) is AOE type, close range melee is more or less require more cure. Like a team of 8, need a lot of conj to ease the boss? In FFXI usually we only need 1 white mage in a regular party.
2. Voking skill, work like nothing comparatively, that's a fact.
So for people say whoever reject the idea is a noob tank? I don't think so.
Most of 'Good Player' are hard-core player in this game, rank up multiple job, acquire multiple skill 'Already'
Have you think about new player? Or some player here just want to be God-like and make the noob envy you? Think wider.
3. Adding more hate on direct damage, that somehow may balance the class-difference.
I also play archer, I hope archer has more powerful move, just like FFXI ranger or BLM. Play strong, Play careful. But why Pug/Mrd/Lnc need to be '100% careful' ? Most people choose these class becuz they like hack&slash style, Coordinate with tank and other class..etc. Play Fun!
Since I acknowlege FFXIV is in the right path now, I'll give them my opinion and my support to make FFXIV success. Enmity need to be fix, period! (And it's coming for sure, Yoshi letter X mention it already http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/11012) -
07-26-2011, 09:46 PMAngryNixon
Still no on all counts. I'm a CON and a "healer" at that (not that there's a clearly defined line for which casters are healers and which aren't) and I don't mind the cure/-ga hate at all.
The tank keeping hate also isn't solely his/her job. If a caster gets high hate because they had to cure more than anticipated to prevent a death, have someone in the green use accomplice on them to balance it out a bit so they can get back to healing. Yes, the ideal is just to stop healing for a bit but that's not possible 100% of the time without exception. In a team/party environment it is a team effort and spot assists where needed bridge the gap just fine. -
07-26-2011, 09:47 PMRenshi
You'll not see that big fix you said anyway. That's gonna transform boss battle into weiner tournaments, where you just eat and don't give a sh*t about anything until your tummy aches.
First thing I've said watching some videos about this dungeon is: "Challenge Accepted.", and if they've done it, that means that a full party can do it. You just have to have the right men and women.
If you've played until R45 then it's for sure that you have other classes ranked up. That means a lot in the means of skills and those things, and if someone is having trouble doing a dungeon, there's a source known as Internet that can help those people.
It is Difficult. That's why it's Fun. -
07-26-2011, 09:52 PMAngryNixonCould not agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renshi
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07-26-2011, 10:03 PMNeroBest answer in this Thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
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07-27-2011, 04:12 AMReaujienDoes you not think before you post? Oh well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blair
Is it really a fact though? What is "too much" - how would you quantify that? Seems very subjective to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blair
LOL? - WHMs in FFXI completely blow CNJs out of the water with respect to healing. And trust me, you have a WHM use curaga spells in a party during a fight and you'll have a high chance at pulling threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blair
Subjective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blair
*YAWN* ... subjective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blair
I guess a 1:1 ratio isn't enough for any tank to rely on his or her own skills. Oh wait, except the non-bad ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blair
Why do I have to look both ways before crossing the street EVERY time? Can't I just do it 75% of the time? Man, life is tough...Quote:
Originally Posted by Blair
They fixed it - you just don't like it. Subjective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blair
Dank you, come again! -
07-27-2011, 05:51 AMThanos
if u fail to understand how the new hate mechanics work and put forth effort with your party to work around the new challenge of it....
u might wanna spend some time getting to understand it before u start freakin out about it just cause ur 1 curagaII pulled hate.. learn why.. how to get around it.. be a better player.. -
07-27-2011, 05:59 AMDeadRiser
Tweak it. Don't change it dramatically.
I don't like how 75% of mobs ignore a provoke/taunt while I'm sitting there doing nothing. -
07-27-2011, 06:09 AMRedAffinity
This was my experience pre-1.18
+ SPAM Cure-ga with nearly 0 hate
+ Cast protect. all enemy hate & dead -
07-27-2011, 06:35 AMAmsai
OK Im going to start off saying that I am a rank 50 GLA, and I have had no trouble tanking 95% of the time after the patch. So pay no attention to my fake char on the left, as I enjoy my anonymity.
That being said. I do think that some minor tweaks and adjustements are needed. Obviously this is my opinion, so I wont be bringing in facts and figures. I think my gut feeling and just a bit of common sense approach will do. I do believe that either the provoke type abilities either need to have a slightly lower recast or they need to be a little bit more potent. They are the default tanking abilities after all and so they should have a bit more ummf, if you know what I mean. I also believe there should be 1 "oh shit" mega-hate ability for emergency situations (But it should have a very long cool down like 30 min, and it should be temporary hate that eventually goes away). Just something to get hate back in emergency situations, but not something that could be used as a crutch for bad tanking and spammed constantly. Now if within 1 or 2 mins after the use of such an ability, you cant get the hate re-established, it could bounce right back to the emergency situation before the oh shit button was pushed. =)
As for how much hate healing and buffs and damage do now, I dont have a single problem with them at all. Good job SE.
I am not saying anyone has, but if anyone in this thread is saying or even implying that enmity works perfect after 1.18, then all I can say is that you're either a SE fanboy, you're an Idiot, you're blind, or you're full of B.S. And if this is the case, I can't help you. Is the enmity system by and large good? Absolutely. Is it perfect? No, be realistic. As I said it does need some minor adjustements. Case in point: I have no problem keeping hate in the new dungeons or on any NMs that I have fought since the patch. And I would say about 95% of the time I have no problems tanking in general. But take yesterday. I was out with some LS mates grinding on some normal mobs. One of our melees goes afk, so we just proceede without him. No problem. When he returns, he joins us when the mob is already half dead. He simply engauges auto-attack and even though I should have a good handle on hate, it decides to attack him??? Keep in mind this is with the the mages going off, so it wasnt a problem keeping the hate off the mages, but this dude auto-attacks and it attacks him. No my friends, the enmity system is not perfect, and does have a few random glitches in it and what not.
Again 95% of the time getting hate is not a problem for me, and if I do loose it because some DD or mage is going nuts, thats to be expected. But not from auto-attack, when i have already establihed great hate. This seems to just be a minor and uncommon issue, but i assure you its happened more than once.
Now I have some questions and concerns for the community.
1. To be an effective tank should you really have to rank up other classes? Should native tanking abilities not be sufficient?
2. It it really the job of a tank to have to FIND out which abilities actually garner hate and which do not? Again, Should native tanking abilities not be sufficient? Should not the job of the tank be to use the native tools at his/her disposal skillfully and tactically?
3. While I disagree for the most part with the OP, some of the comments I have seen take me back to FFXI days. Some of you guys are in fact coming off as elitest jerks. If you disagree with the OP, thats all fine and good. But comments like learn to play, are not only elitest but unhelpful as well. Why not back up your words with specific examples instead of vague ideas or insults? Maybe make a guide on how to tank? Who knows you might even win over a few people. -
07-27-2011, 06:04 PMEkko/clapQuote:
Originally Posted by Amsai
And if in order to tank effectively your answer is to get this r40 ability from x class, that r30 ability from y class and that r40 ability from z class, to me then GLA abilities need a fix. -
07-27-2011, 07:47 PMElkwoodNo to all Learn 2 tank! If you had all the proper abilities, Emulate, accomplice, Defender 2, sentinel, and Cure III, proper skill points in each category, tanking is not hard at all.... PS try cross curing as a tank i hear it works wonders... Basic strategy ! it is your friend!Quote:
Originally Posted by Blair
Now once SE gives us refresh and ballad I realize things will be much easier because Stygian Spikes does not always proc right and using Siphon MP II the mobs run out of MP fast. But the challenge is part of the fun! -
07-27-2011, 07:55 PMLoony_BoB
As a tank, I'm adoring the changes in 1.18. I don't think the changes suggested in the original post of this thread are required.
EDIT:
One class should have some more straight forward tanking options (eg. shield use, provoke, etc) but it should by no means have them all. I believe that ranking up other classes to gain additional tanking abilities is an excellent thing about this game, and I have embraced it wholeheartedly. I love "designing" my tank using abilities of various classes. Tanking can be done very differently depending on what classes an individual has ranked up, and I think this adds to the variation allowed in the game from the class system. I think doing away with this would be a very bad thing, as it's what makes the game so interesting to me. I detested how in FFXI (for my brief play of three or so months) I was told what to do and when, to the point that I was not playing the game but that the game was playing me. I like how in FFXIV, this has not happened (yet... hopefully it's a long way away before we get to that stage). In short, you shouldn't have to in order to tank (ie, you should be able to hold hate around 50% of the time), but there should be significant advantages to being able to do so (ie, up to 100% of the time).Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsai
Yes. Of course it is their job. Think of how boring this game would be if all you had to do is level up one class and use the latest abilities you have? Urgh. It would drive me out of the game. I mean, every MMO has some wiki out there that covers the in-depth analysis of what works and what doesn't. At some point, someone went and figured out these tactics. This always happens and it's part of the MMO experience, the community working together as a whole to find good skills for certain types of players.Quote:
2. It it really the job of a tank to have to FIND out which abilities actually garner hate and which do not? Again, Should native tanking abilities not be sufficient? Should not the job of the tank be to use the native tools at his/her disposal skillfully and tactically?
Your third bit isn't really a question, so I'll ignore it. :) -
07-27-2011, 08:12 PMLuhy
Enmity is fine. We shouldn't be able to have perfect hate that lasts forever with one Provoke and we shouldn't be allowed to do nothing but Cure III without gaining any hate.
If anything, Provoke and Taunt should be given a very short-lasting amount of deteriorating enmity so that a tank doesn't lose hate after the very first cure of a fight. Anything else, I think is semantics.