SE has failed to fix this since launch

With 2.3 around the corner I had hopes SE would have fixed this issue by now. What issues you ask?... The useless cross skills...

You know, the ones that no one uses.

I.e :
Skull sunder on pld, mnk, drg.
Savage blade on War
Cure and raise on Sch & Smn
....the list goes on. These skill are either alternate version of a skills the class already had or completely useless to a class because of the game dynamics.

Ive been away from FFXIV a while so maybe I missed something. Have they ever said y these are cross classed? If not, these skills need to be traded for something else. For example, id glady trade cure on arcanist for repose or thunder. Or trade savage blade for a axe version of shield swipe(parry vs block)

Any thoughts why this was implemented this way? Maybe se has a master plan they have not revealed.

I haven't read anything about this. It comes off rather lazy on SE's part.

The things you suggest would be way overpowered in PvP or PvE though. I think the cross abilities we can choose from now are good enough. Unfortunately some jobs have little choice such as my PLD. They could do something about that.

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

I haven't read anything about this. It comes off rather lazy on SE's part.

The things you suggest would be way overpowered in PvP or PvE though.

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Just putting the thought out there that some of the skills need to be addressed. SE will figure out ways to balance things if they do rework cross class. Kinda like back in 2.1.

They're just a way for classes to fool around at the low level.

Also skull sunder is a useful gimmick to steal a gold if a Fate is about to finish with a GL3+IR, as a monk. Useless in raid content but the use is indeed there.
TBH I think they're more focused on balancing cross class skills from rogue that might throw some jobs out of the picture in favour of classes (imagine having BfB, IR, RS, QS and maybe an additional damage buff from ROG, that's close to 5 damage buffs in one burst)

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

Just putting the thought out there that some of the skills need to be addressed.

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What you first need to consider is that it's pretty obvious that the devs do no intend for every single CC ability to be equally useful or even useful to all classes/job. On top of this, they do not intend for every class to get the same benefits from their CC list.

PLD just gets Stoneskin and Foresight while WAR gets Conv, Featherfoot, Provoke, Second Wind, Mantra, Awareness, and Internal Release because PLD gets pretty much all of its needed functionality from GLA. The PLD CC options are weak because PLD doesn't *need* stronger/more useful options (because it fulfills all of the fundamental requirements for being a fully functional tank in a smaller number of abilities than WAR does).

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SE will figure out ways to balance things if they do rework cross class. Kinda like back in 2.1.

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The only CC abilities changes in 2.1 that had anything to do with balance were there to weaken certain jobs that were getting greater benefit out of those CC abilities than the devs intended. Internal Release and B4B has their CC values reduced because they were too strong as CCs; Thunder got turned into a THM/BLM exclusive because it was too strong of an attack to be allowed to use as a CC; Blizz II was given to replace it, but it was nerfed into oblivion to make up for it; Virus got the Antibody debuff so that there wasn't any value in stacking a bunch of Viruses into the group.

Hell, Mercy Stroke had its CD reduced *but that only applied as class ability* so it's not like it was made any better as a CC ability whatsoever.

The devs have pretty well explicitly shown that they do not want CC abilities to be particularly strong. Every change they have made to them has made them *weaker*, not stronger.

Now, if you want to argue that the devs will rebalance *entire classes* around getting stronger CD suites, you're basically asking the devs to do a metric shitton of work just to keep things exactly where they are right now. The classes are damned well balanced as is. You're asking for the devs to mess with that balance because you don't like that some of the *cross-class* options are basically worthless and are further asking that the devs buff them and reduce the effectiveness of the native abilities of the class to compensate (since where else are the devs going to draw off some of the effectiveness?).

The CC abilities are, honestly, fine where they are. They're not a major decision for anyone in the least. There are 2-3 "must have" options for each class (and the only time it's really "must have" is in the case of WAR, where a major part of their total CD suite, Conv, and a required function for a tank class, Provoke, are cross class), but, beyond that, they're minor benefits that are nowhere near required, which is how it *should* be.

I actually wonder whether the whole cross class skill system was such a great idea. I didn't play XI or v.1, so maybe it is a remnant of something. As Kitru discusses, making cross class skills stronger and more diverse could have serious balance issues. The more direct route is incorporate a job's skill suite into the job (and subclass) itself. In most cases it seems SE has done just that, though there are notable exceptions where basic and necessary skills are managed as cross skills (like provoke for WAR and swiftcast for healers).

Cross class skills seem mainly a way to get people to try out other classes. Maybe SE has a plan down the road to make the system more robust, with players able to use it to build highly-customized roles, but that would run counter to the basic approach SE has taken so far with this game.

Raise is good for scholar in low level duty roulette. Get that before Res.

It may be that SE has a purpose for each of the CC skills on the list and we just don't see them.

Skull Sunder and Savage Blade may be on the CC skill list in order to give GLA and MAR low TP fillers for Rage of Halone and Butcher's Block when those are unavailable.

I completely agree with the OP.
Nobody uses Skull Sunder on MNK for any serious activity. Or Savage Blade on a Warrior, or Haymaker on DRG.

Classes have their attack skills and combos. Nobody would waste a combo for a weaker attack, no DD tanks a dungeon or raid, no WHM uses Blizzard over Holy.
Cross Class skills should either open new ways to play a class or supplement its existing skills.


The cross class skill system is something they adapted from FFXI, where classes had fewer skills with longer cooldowns and where you had to give up all abilities from one support-job if you wanted something from another support-job.

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Originally Posted by Eggnook24

Raise is good for scholar in low level duty roulette. Get that before Res.

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I main sch and was useless, not battle raise and you get weakness faster to run back. You level as an arcanist, you focus on dps while doing so.
You get your battle raise at 22 during halatali the 3rd dungeon...

If you are synched down SCH, you don't pick any Raise but instead Cleric Stance/StoneSkin/Protect (usually access to 1 or 2 CC depending on level sync)
And If somebody is dying while you could just sleep during those dungeons then there is a problem.
What do you think Physick for For White Mage /Conjurer, it is good because they only get heal at lvl 4?

I think that a lot of cross class skills are just place holders. More classes to come so they will change some I guess.

you do realize that they are going to add more classes into the game?

Which in turn it is going to increase the crossclassing abilities for all classes anyway. It realy has to.

There was a hint for a tank class to enter later on so wait for that to be released and then we can rant together if it aint implemented right

Cross Class abilities are reminiscent of FFXI and FFXIV 1.0. In FFXI you had to level up two jobs; ie: WHM lv60/BLM lv30. However; in FFXI the x-class abilities were basically the lv30BLM abilities if you had a lv60WHM. You didn't really have to pick and choose them. That system kept those abilities in check by essentially weakening them in higher level content. A lv30 Blind spell was pretty much worthless to use on a end game mob except in extreme situations. In 1.0 they brought the same system over but it didn't work out so well. So they re-hashed it yet again to what it is now. To have them redo it yet again would be a waste of energy that could be put into more content development. I only partially agree with the OP (no offense) in what he said. But redoing it completely would be pointless. They will also be adding in more content that includes new jobs and such which may benefit from the current system. I do recall that SE wants to implement a jack-of-all-trades style class/job in the future (RDM?) and that job would benefit greatly from having a diverse x-class assortment.

In 1.0 this was brilliantly done.

There werent set "cross-class able" skills you could set, you could set literally everything (till they changed it). And it was amazing. I leveled Archer for their AoE attack, and i could use it on my Gladiator for a nifty sword-version AoE attack. Same for Life Surge and Doom Spike.

The poor system we have in 2.0 is nothing but a mockery of it, i feel they didnt want to implement a subjob system, but they couldnt simply leave us with nothing either, so we got this. And we ended up with 0 skills we need, 3 skills we can use, and a pletora of skills we set just so we get the max 5 done.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Skull Sunder and Savage Blade may be on the CC skill list in order to give GLA and MAR low TP fillers for Rage of Halone and Butcher's Block when those are unavailable.

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You get your t2 combo attack, which is identical to the one you can cross-class from the other tank, at level 4, before you even have access to CC abilities. There is no point in *ever* taking SS or SB as CC abilities as a MRD or GLA because you get something that will do the *exact* same thing for the *exact* same cost *without* taking up a CC slot 6 levels before you even have access to CC abilities.

The only class that could get *anything* out of Savage Blade or Skull Sunder is a DoW DPS, as a mediocre increased enmity ability. For absolutely anyone else, it's either completely redundant or generates less enmity and damage than what they can do with class abilities.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

You get your t2 combo attack, which is identical to the one you can cross-class from the other tank, at level 4, before you even have access to CC abilities. There is no point in *ever* taking SS or SB as CC abilities as a MRD or GLA because you get something that will do the *exact* same thing for the *exact* same cost *without* taking up a CC slot 6 levels before you even have access to CC abilities.

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First crossclass slot opens at level 1 or 5 (can't remember which) and the second a 10.
FB->SB->SS and HS->SS->SB are 150 potency/350 enmity for ~63.333 TP per gcd vs FB-SB and HS->SS 175 potency/375 for 65TP per gcd. This is similar to the difference between a LNC using TT->VT (175 potency for 65 TP per gcd) and spamming Impulse Drive (180 potency for 70 TP per gcd). It's a slight TP advantage at the cost of damage/enmity generation and there are exceedingly few fights where it would have a noticeable effect, but the effect still exists. The reason exists but it is far from a great reason.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

First crossclass slot opens at level 1 or 5 (can't remember which) and the second a 10.
FB->SB->SS and HS->SS->SB are 150 potency/350 enmity for ~63.333 TP per gcd vs FB-SB and HS->SS 175 potency/375 for 65TP per gcd. This is similar to the difference between a LNC using TT->VT (175 potency for 65 TP per gcd) and spamming Impulse Drive (180 potency for 70 TP per gcd). It's a slight TP advantage at the cost of damage/enmity generation and there are exceedingly few fights where it would have a noticeable effect, but the effect still exists. The reason exists but it is far from a great reason.

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FB->SB->SB is identical to FB->SB->SS, there is no difference whatsoever. It is entirely redundant for MRD/WAR to get SB and GLD/PLD to get SS. The point of allowing SB & SS to be cross classed is so that PGL/MNK or LNC/DRG have access to a high threat move in case they wanted to act as makeshift tanks. Say your tank DC'd or something like that or you're doing a FATE with friends. You can just SB/SS spam as either class/job and generate 300 enmity per GCD which is the best pure enmity generator those 2 classes/jobs have access to (although you have to give up a LOT of DPS to get it). SB/SS is just given to WAR/PLD respectively as a matter of completeness because they get ALL of the cross class abilities from the other class, whether they have any purpose or not.

It's the exact same situation between SCH & WHM with Physick/Cure. They're basically the exact same spell in terms of cost and potency, so there's no reason to cross class it whatsoever. It's just included as a matter of completeness.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Failed attempts at logic.

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FB>SB>SS is *exactly* the same as FB>SB>SB. Savage Blade outside of combo is identical to Skull Sunder outside of combo: they're both 100 potency and 300 epot. The only difference between FB>SB>SS and FB>SB>SB is that you're arbitrarily using a cross-class ability that's identical to your class ability.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

FB>SB>SS is *exactly* the same as FB>SB>SB... that you're arbitrarily using a cross-class ability that's identical to your class ability.

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GCD games ALWAYS have this issue. Too many identical abilities with no variation aside from a name. But GCD games run into severe balancing issues if they make every abilitity (available at different levels) do different damage without replacing under the guise of an 'upgraded ability.' Rift is a larger and prime example of the OP issue and yours. You could equip 3 classes within an archetype and 60% of the skills were the same and garbage. But then you look at a game like EQ2 having individual abilities that rank up, have AA enhancement and separate cast/recast timers... well, you used all your abilities except for a very few abilities.

CC skills aren't just job exclusive, so you can't judge their usefulness just based on jobs. I used Physick on my MRD up until I unlocked WAR because it gave me a lot of solo survivability (and MO as a MRD isn't used for anything else while solo).

I've also MT'D dungeons as a LNC, DRD and PGL with Skull Sunder. Not useful past Toto-Rak, but enough to get us through after a tank leaves without wasting time waiting on another one.