So I recently decided to level another of my low level classes and decided to try leveling a tank role. My gladiator is currently level 22, and up until now I never had any issues tanking. I started running with some FC friends since they had some low levels to level, except one of them was a black mage using his level 30 something black mage to help. I cannot seem to get hate from him. I secure hate fine for a bit, but eventually the enemy being focused by dps will aggro him. I'll try to get hate back but only succeed 25% of the time. I try everything to get that mob back and it doesn't work most of the time. Ignores shield lob, flashes, savage blade combos, everything no many how many I spam. One of my paladin tank friends at i100 who is really good at his job told me that wasn't my fault since it sounded like I wasn't doing anything wrong, and that the black mage should of loosened up on the offensive so I could get hate back.
I open with Shield Lob, then follow up with 2 Flashes when mobs are around me, then proceed to my Savage Blade combo while cycling to make sure the other enemies get Savage Blade to increase enmity (no Rage of Halone yet until 26). I also throw in another Flash every 2 combo cycles. I use Fight or Flight at start of pull and when it's up. I only use the defense ones when it seems they are needed, like if I'm taking enough damage to where healer has to burn through MP with intense healing or harder hitting enemies and always on bosses, which so far hasn't been needed much on weaker mobs because my gear is up to date. I do use Riot Blade combo on occasion, but only when I need MP. I use Shield Bash to stun certain moves. I also have warrior's Blood for Blood (or Bloodbath, forgot the name) as a cross class skill. I asked my tank friend if maybe me putting all points into vitality so far could of been why, and told him I heard it's better to put everything into vitality earlier levels, then strength later on. He said that wasn't the issue because even though strength improves ability to draw enmity, it isn't significant enough to make a difference in the situation I was describing without a lot of strength.
So I just wanted to ask on forums to see if anyone thought different from what one of my tank friends told me. Is it true that a black mage that doesn't let up can sometimes make it impossible to get hate back? I mean I'm not new to the game (since beta) and I know it's easy for black mages to draw aggro, but I've always seen tanks get the aggro back. Maybe they only got it back because the black mage let up and I just didn't notice that since I'm not focused on what black mage is doing when I'm the other dps. I had no problem getting hate back from a THM, but this was my first time running with a higher leveled black mage and it was like this for the 2 or 3 dungeons we did. Also any advice on where to put my stats? So far all vitality, but I read somewhere that there was an ideal number for strength at current endgame, and everything else should go into vitality.
new tank here, some questions
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06-30-2014, 05:46 AMh0tNstilettosnew tank here, some questions
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06-30-2014, 06:02 AMEye_Gore
DPS people should also be watching the meters, yes if they start pulling aggro faster than the tank get get it off them, then they should back off to let it go down. Provoke works well in the lower dungeons to pull single aggro back to you.
Some though it seems just don't care and will go right on attacking pulling more and more hate, the tank isn't the only one who should be watching the aggro meters. -
06-30-2014, 06:22 AMNayto
The only way you can remedy this before rage of halone is to establish hate earlier than the blackmage/thaurmaturge.
Because before you get rage of halone, your tools are only to cement the hate, you can't build on it since you'll always at some point lose it. Your friend can also save quelling strikes for every boss encounter so he doesn't overtake you while going full out, and hopefully before you lose hate the boss is already downed.
Another thing you can do is get some cheap STR potions with your for boss encounters.
If your already familiar with most dungeons: Charge a stoneskin on yourself then stun the last mob when it's 10% and find the next group. While they're finishing it off, you can gain more hate on the next group with more flashes/savage blades. The stun should be timed to be long enough so the last mob is immobile till it's dead (usually take note if they are on their heavy hitting combo skill/in their astral fire mode).
Unless your running with the douchebag kind of BLM/THM that also leaves the last mob to stragglers... then I have no answer for you for that kind of situation.
Lastly, if the mob is about to die and you lost hate on it... forget it. At best, just shield bash it (hopefully once) so it minimizes the damage to whoever has taken hate and focus on cementing hate on the other mobs. I believe I read somewhere that only certain 'damage boost' abilities actually improve the hate generated from flash, not sure if raging strikes could be it but it's worth a shot.
TL;DR no you can't get hate back from a level synced BLM that won't let up (pre halone). I've read a thread somewhere about one Paladin that was level synced and had the same problem. Heck I've had bards that spam heavy shot twice in the succession that you can only hold hate if you had a pre-charged savage blade and won't let up because "I can kite this and tank better than you". So in my time leveling a paladin, it was always about establishing as much hate before the DPS gets to the mob (pre rage of halone).
This is from a "can I do everything before my dps has to start cutting back?" perspective... since I find that more challenging.
*edit* If you cross class raging strikes from ARC, you 'can' potentially regain your hate back with fight or flight + Raging Strikes + Maybe STR pot. I did not factor that in since I forgot all about the flexibility of a gladiator. Also unlike fight or flight, I think raging strikes actually improves the enmity gained from flash... has something to do with weapon damage or something. -
06-30-2014, 06:36 AMNoxifer
Some DPS don't seem to care at all about throwing all their damage output at enemies, no matter whether they're going with a tank that's "obviously" at a lower level than them (since you're "gladiator" and not "paladin", I mean). And if they don't care and keep blasting that enemy they have aggro on, it's next to impossible to get it back without completely losing the other mobs in the group as well. Not to mention that trying to get it back can be extremely frustrating and stressing whether or not you succeed.
Like Eye_Gore said, it's not only your job to keep aggro balance, the DPS should also be looking at them aggro meters and switch enemy or take a break if they go up to orange. Yellow/orange is the universal (afaik) signal for, "Slow down a bit and keep your eyes open; be prepared to stop." Just look at traffic signs.
The aggro bars are there for a reason, and it's not like you can see when someone is close to pulling mob B away if you're hitting on mob A -- you only notice the change when the mob's already going after someone else.
My suggestion is that the next time it happens, do your "normal" get-that-mob-back method (usually provoke+shield lob should do the trick). If it's not working and the DPS in question keeps attacking the same mob, just let them deal with it. If they're highly geared (level 50 synched down) and you're in a low-level dungeon, they can probably handle it on their own. If they have problems with it and die (and subsequently complain that it was your fault), just tell them that if they want you to tank the enemies they shouldn't insist on stealing the mobs away from you. Tell them to a) attack the mob the tank is focused on (or have marked, if you go with markings) and/or b) switch target or take a break if they go up to orange. If they don't seem to learn or prove unwilling to adjust their methods to the party they're with, it's not your fault.
(Should they counter with 'but my dps will go down, and this dungeon will take longer', remind them that a dead DPS deals no damage.)
If a mob goes after the healer, it's a different matter, of course :p Mainly because it'll most likely have run off because the healer was keeping you alive, and you want that to continue :p
Edit: In the example you gave, btw, it sounds as though both DPS were attacking the same enemy of the group while you were rotating through them? Try to focus on the same one that the DPS are on, and flash a bit more often to keep the rest from going after the healer (tabbing through them now and then to make sure the healer's aggro isn't catching up too much on you). But generally, the above goes for most situations. Even when it's FC members you're dealing with. It can be even more crucial to have a Talk with them then about it, because the frustration can lead to friction within the FC that's not healthy in the long run =/ -
06-30-2014, 07:15 AMTouchandFeel
Pretty much what everyone else has said so far.
You are pretty much doing what you can do at your level and doing it correctly.
However, until you get Rage of Halone and Shield Oath, things will be a little more difficult keeping aggro against DPS, especially when your level is around mid twenties through thirties as DPS classes get a lot of powerful abilities that they seem to love to spam while tanks don't get a lot of emnity control abilities.
Two things that you can do that may help are:
- Mark the mobs so that there is an established kill order and the dps will know to focus on the one that you are focusing on. Start with marking "1" before you pull. You can mark "2", "3", etc. when you rotate to them in your combo rotation or right before the previously marked mob is about to die.
- As Noxifer pointed out, focus more on a specific target instead of rotating combos among different enemies if the dps are all focusing on a single target.
However if a DPS does steal aggro and they just keep on attacking that same mob, it can be very difficult to get aggro back from them. What they should really do is to stop attacking it and move in closer to you so that it is easier for you to regain aggro. If they can't move closer for some reason, then they should at least stop attacking it if they want you to regain aggro on it. -
06-30-2014, 11:40 AMNicoboI think at low-level it would not be too hard to pull mob away form the tank,Quote:
Originally Posted by h0tNstilettos
just burn all CDs at the same time with a quick initial attack, you can make your tank like a fool,
and I found some dps really enjoy to "DPS-race" against the tank ^^;
Maybe you can try run to next group and pull quicker when this group is going to finish as one GCD ahead others is very helpful. -
06-30-2014, 01:36 PMUltimatecalibur
OP, you could be doing everything right but, with a dps 8+ levels higher than you, it may not be enough.
First, what content are you doing? Dungeons or Fates?
Are you in gear as close to your level as possible? Is it high quality, green or Aetherial? -
06-30-2014, 05:13 PMSynestr
^
Yea it will be hard to hold hate against a job that is 8+ lvls. Also it is a BLM and not a THM. So the bonus INT is there, which is more than the base a THM would have at the level iirc. This just equal more dmg which equals more hate generated to him. All you can do is smash it hard as you can with your threat combo and flashes, lobs.
You are prolly doing nothing wrong, him just too stronk!
Syn -
06-30-2014, 10:44 PMPetiteMalFleur
Make sure your weapon is always the highest level you can equip. That's about all you can do. If a dps pulls hate your priori is to establish hate on the other mobs first. At this level dps can tank just fine.
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07-02-2014, 08:52 AMJarvix
Everyone here is giving good advice. You will find Bards doing the same thing to you. (even worse with their ability to continue to do damage on the move)
Keep you chin up. It does get better. You have one advantage. Use your other class to go into the higher instances and secure some gear from there that you can use for your Tank. That will be better than anything you can find on the Auction House. If you can get some help from FC members then you won't have any worries about having to roll against other players. Good Luck! -
07-03-2014, 12:22 AMEricCartmenez
As a BRD, I know I've pissed off some darned good tanks. I'll be the first to admit that it was due to total ignorance. First it was, "Why are there numbers over these targets' heads?" Don't assume people know what you want down there. Once I had some time in the game, I actually played with a tank that didn't know what aggro was! Myself and a MNK were good enough to take the time to explain and let him learn. Now that I've tanked for a little while (2 whole weeks or so?), I can see the frustration factor. In this short time, I've had DPS of every kind kite mobs around like their heads were on fire. Sometimes you can chase them down, but other times, the right thing to do is stand your ground, take your targets and get the DPS some help afterward. As a lowly 20-something level tank, I have plenty of DPS and healers who pull aggro away from me like candy from a baby. To get it back is like riding a baby's tricycle uphill. I had a guy kiting Ifrit around last night! I was popping my CD's (cool downs) the second the group was released, and before I could target Ifrit, a low level THM runs up and pops him in the nose. The next thing I knew, we were running a world record 440 around the place. I finally stood still and typed "bring him to me, I cannot catch you!" He did, and I was able to pull the aggro quickly, but those things will happen. You can't control people who have no patience. I had a DRG who was so much higher level than me once that Ifrit didn't care about my existence. I popped every CD, hit him with every enmity generating combo I had... The DRG understood and was very good natured about it. We made it through without a wipe, and I did my best. I'm still new as well to this tanking thing (lvl 29 MRD, lvl 24 GLA), so my perspective is not the same as the others.
Like you, I typically open with shield lob, flash, flash, and a savage blade combo. I have Fight or Flight and Convalescence in cool down. I also took Blood Bath from my MRD, so I have that in CD as well. I have a combo that shield lobs and marks the target, and that helps identify target 1, even in a speed run. I use the macro and lob at the first 3 targets, and now everyone has 1, 2, and 3. From there, it's usually a blood bath anyway. :D -
07-03-2014, 12:36 PMmcyumiHi may I know what is the macro to target 1,2 and 3 with shield lob? Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by EricCartmenez
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07-03-2014, 02:33 PMJarvix/micon "Shield Lob"Quote:
Originally Posted by mcyumi
/ac "Shield Lob" <t>
/mk Target <t>
It is a bad macro and you should not use it. If you need to SL to regain a mob that is running from you people will get confused about what mob you want them to attack. Better just to make a macro that only marks.
/mk Target <t>
Go to the Party tab and click on Signs to see all the ones available -
07-03-2014, 09:06 PMNaryorilPersonally i just mark the next mob with a 1. When the current number 1 is at 10 to 20% health i set the 1 to the next target. DPS don't really need a number 2, 3 and 4, they usually attack a single target, or all at once. This way you don't even need a macro, you can just put the symbol for marking on your hotbar. And it allows you to adapt to the way the fight goes easier (If you mark 1, 2 and 3 in the beginning and for some reason now you want to kill number 3 before number 2 this can get confusing. If there is just a single 1 on the next target this poses no problem at all).Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarvix
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07-03-2014, 10:43 PMEricCartmenezAgreed, but only if you don't have a button for SL and a button to mark with SL. I have them separate, so one to mark and grab aggro and the other to just shield lob. Naryoril, I agree, and many times, I only mark 1. Problem is this - I used to just mark targets. Then everyone is speed running and 1/2 the people don't follow the marks anyway. So then I macro'd the mark to a SL (Tomahawk for my MRD) so that I could start the fight and mark at the same time. When I do the first hit to the next guy, I can hit with the macro and bang, that's #2. That can be at the beginning or in the middle of the fight. Or not at all. When people aren't following the marks, screw it. Not worth the effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarvix