Compulsory Gridanian Education

A while ago in another thread, I pondered the education of younglings in Eorzea. With guilds and trades and skills being highly valued in our realm, it would make sense to me that the younglings would be exposed to, taught and tested in these myriad of skills to see what possible future they would be suited to.

We talked about how younglings in Gridania are orphans, and we don't see many youths in general, et cetera et cetera.

However, with the wonderful implementation of "you have completed this guildleve" green messages, leading to my quest to complete ALL THE THINGS, I have found some wonderful information which makes me think about this all again.

As read in the carpenter leve Compulsory Conjury:

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An edict recently passed by Stillglade Fane requiring all children between the ages of six and nine to train in the art of conjury has parents scrambling to find reasonably priced canes and crooks. To make sure they are not undersold by any second-rate foreign merchant, Black Rabbit Traders are urgently seeking carpenters willing to lend their services in the crafting of various conjurer's arms

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In fact, the Stillglade Fane has laws about mandatory education (in conjury) for almost all citizens, particularly Wood Wailers (Leve: Spears and Sorcery). Wood Wailers themselves are then teaching citizens residing in remote locations, such as Quarrymill and Hyrstmill, basic conjury (Leve: Heal Away).

We have a nation of people who's children are all learning the art of conjury as a result of the Calamity, and I find this "education is important" approach quite forward thinking for the realm. I wonder what children in the rest of Eorzea are doing?

In Ul'dah my guess is panhandling would be the best fit.

Interesting.

It's a far cry from 13 years of required education, but it's certainly something.

I'm not really surprised Conjury is mandatory in Gridania, given how the entire nation stands or falls at the whim of the Elementals. Teaching your children about how to handle and interact with those self-same Elementals seems like the logical thing to do.

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Originally Posted by LaurelinKementari

I'm not really surprised Conjury is mandatory in Gridania, given how the entire nation stands or falls at the whim of the Elementals. Teaching your children about how to handle and interact with those self-same Elementals seems like the logical thing to do.

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Not to mention that it would help the early identification and indoctrination of talented children, including emerging Padjal.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Not to mention that it would help the early identification and indoctrination of talented children, including emerging Padjal.

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This is what I originally thought, too.

In Ul'dah, it's kinda who you know. I imagine there are many who try to make it in the guilds. In 1.0, lotta people worked in the mines. Lotta people danced as entertainment for the miners. The DoH guilds are definitely more high society, so I don't know. It seems to me that most Ul'dahns, regardless of their station in society, would be raised to do whatever trade the family knew. We got a feudal society with a government that is socially disinterested. Based on that, people would have no choice but to learn the trade that mom or dad knew and hope they could get employed.

I get the feeling that the pirates and rogues of Limsa Lominsa aren't very much interested in education, unless it involves learning the "finger dance", or the *ahem* intimate ins-and-outs of the opposite sex.

In fact, many Lominsans express open contempt for the city's arcanists, and if it weren't for the Admiral, the nation would probably be wallowing in a state of chaos due to the lack of a functioning civil service (a scenario that Lominsa's seedier types would likely prefer — no one likes the taxman, after all).

Limsa Lominsa's resident spellcasters are unique in that they rarely get any respect, unlike their counterparts in Ul'dah (where the thaumaturges are the much-feared intermediaries between life and death) and Gridania (where the conjurers serve as emissaries to the elementals).

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

[...] Limsa Lominsa's resident spellcasters are unique in that they rarely get any respect, unlike their counterparts in Ul'dah (where the thaumaturges are the much-feared intermediaries between life and death) and Gridania (where the conjurers serve as emissaries to the elementals).

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In all three cities, the mages are the Law. The Arcanists control the ports, imports, and exports. The Thaumaturges literally are the law making body of Ul'Dah. The Conjurers, as you say, are the intermediary between the Elementals and the city.

The puckish rogues of the pirates may, on the face of it, deride education, and hold contempt for the Arcanists (as the civil service that they are), but I'm not sure that the Arcanists and Limsa Lominsa could exist without each other.

That's a very interesting idea that I admit I've never actually seen mentioned anywhere else in Gridania before, but it does definitely make sense. One possible contradiction though is that the CNJ Quest line clearly shows that Conjury is not an easy school of magic to learn, if the acolyte is stubborn or closed minded and refuses to open their minds to the whisperings of the elementals they're simply incapable of using such magic.

Sylphie's lack of potency in Conjury originally was for this very reason. She insisted on following in her mother's footsteps healing people on a whim (with what is effectively the traditional series White Magic ability/spell Sacrifice), and stubbornly ignored the Guild's teachings, leading E-Sumi Yan to mention "that she cannot conjure so much as a whiff of air or a single pebble."

So thus forcing Conjury onto those who quite frankly refuse to listen could be counterproductive and technically just a waste of everyone's time, not the less the Hearers of Stillglade Fane.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

So thus forcing Conjury onto those who quite frankly refuse to listen could be counterproductive and technically just a waste of everyone's time, not the less the Hearers of Stillglade Fane.

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True, but also in a way it's necessary in order to determine if someone has the gift of being a hearer (or less so, a padjal). Thus, the mandatory teaching of conjury is a necessary evil due to the vital importance hearers and padjali are to Gridanian society, even if only a fraction of those children even take to the art.

Whilst the Conjury quest line clearly highlights not everyone can follow the teachings of conjury, I get the feeling that the Stillglade Fane believe everyone, at least everyone of Gridanian heritage, can master a rudimentary level of conjury. Particularly healing spells. This is evidenced by the fact that they are teaching Wood Wailers, lancers, how to heal, as well as citizens of hamlets and small settlements within the Shroud.

These are also adults, too. So whilst those aspects of children being hearers, etc, may be wonderful assets, I do not believe it is the overall goal of the Stillglade Fane.

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Originally Posted by Kyan

Whilst the Conjury quest line clearly highlights not everyone can follow the teachings of conjury, I get the feeling that the Stillglade Fane believe everyone, at least everyone of Gridanian heritage, can master a rudimentary level of conjury. Particularly healing spells. This is evidenced by the fact that they are teaching Wood Wailers, lancers, how to heal, as well as citizens of hamlets and small settlements within the Shroud.

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There is no formal practice of medicine in Eorzea, so I think it's safe to assume a simple, fundamental understanding of Conjury is just like first-aid. Everyone should have some understanding of how to address a wound, even if you aren't a medical doctor (or in Eorzea, a CNJ).

Sylphie was a particularly special case who distrusted the elementals in the first place due to her mother. I imagine most children have a far easier time learn.

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Originally Posted by Velox

There is no formal practice of medicine in Eorzea, so I think it's safe to assume a simple, fundamental understanding of Conjury is just like first-aid. Everyone should have some understanding of how to address a wound, even if you aren't a medical doctor (or in Eorzea, a CNJ).

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The existence of Antidotes, potion to cure different ills like Paralysie, and simple potion healing wound, make me think there's a bit more than "people have to cure".

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Originally Posted by Alenore

The existence of Antidotes, potion to cure different ills like Paralysie, and simple potion healing wound, make me think there's a bit more than "people have to cure".

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There is also evidence of a variety of medieval medical practices, such as barbers, chirurgeons, and chemists (as cited on the moor leech item description: Also present in Coerthas, Bronze Lake, etc).

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Originally Posted by Velox

There is no formal practice of medicine in Eorzea, so I think it's safe to assume a simple, fundamental understanding of Conjury is just like first-aid. Everyone should have some understanding of how to address a wound, even if you aren't a medical doctor (or in Eorzea, a CNJ).

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The thing is, an early Gridanian quest in Hyrstmill also touched on this - stating that it was not always possible to rely on a CNJ or Hearer nearby, and thus more mundane means of treating sickness and injury was needed. Hence the player was tasked with harvesting herbs used in the preparation of a treatment for the 'creeping death' illness that is fatal to hyur if left untreated, despite Conjury spells now being available to treat the disease. The message I got from that quest was that the average person couldn't always get to a CNJ in time to heal, and so had to often rely on herbal medicines instead.

Also it should go without saying the ALC Guild is shown to be functioning pretty much as a hospital too, with ALCs depicted to be serving effectively as MDs. How useful their concoctions though in treating the sick and injured is arguable (after all, look what happened in 1.0 with Warburton).

Ironically though, the idea of Gridania making it mandatory that everyone learn the basics of Conjury in order to heal is somewhat reflective of actual gameplay - how many people who started as a Disciple of War or as THM after unlocking the Armoury System at level 10 trooped down to Stillglade Fane to unlock CNJ simply to learn low level healing spells like Cure and Protect to cross-class? Hence this could also be seen as Ferne with a twinkle in his big single eye ensuring that 'art imitates life' and subtly acknowledging actual gameplay (and player-made concepts) in the storyline - it's not the first time this has happened (after all, remember the 'great Gobbuue Wall' references? ;)).

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Originally Posted by Velox

There is no formal practice of medicine in Eorzea.

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Ah, but what is medicine?
Alchemy, Conjury, Arcanima?
The definition will vary with the culture that seeks healing.

Moose, can I get a confirmation of The Phonistery in Ul'dah 1.0 referring to Medicine? Or even the current Alchemy Guild quests, for that matter? Various items are categorized as "medicine" for organizational purposes / gameplay purposes. I'm pretty sure that someone in The Phonistery was referred to as a physician or synonym thereof. And I'm pretty sure Houiin Kyouma mentions medicine at some point in the Alchemy quests. I don't remember, though, as I was too busy being an assistant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Fox4GqSgJE this 1.0 quest video refers to you needing to take F''lhaminn to the Phrontistery's sickroom.

Some things to consider:
Each town has it's own healers, Grid has CNJ, LL has ACN, and UD has the Alchemists.

I wonder how each city-state handles education. UD may have a private for-profit (obviously) education system. Only the rich can be educated. Though, I never see children in UD except for the urchins in the alleys. Another thing that kinda bugs me. When you start off in UD, you go right to your guild and get accepted in. Right outside the gates is a FATE about a woman who was declinedentry to every guild. How bad do you have to suck to be declined entry into a guild. We literally join a guild within 5 minutes of arriving to town.


Also, with regards to UD, there are people outside the gates looking for work. What's stopping them from joining the guilds? Again, we get off the wagon and in minutes become members of the guilds in UD. Why don't the refugees do the same thing? I know the Syndicate has the power to evict people, but they never evicted us, and we were a bunch of unknowns with unknown intentions.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

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It should be noted that we're also members of a global paramilitary project that employs and encourages persons of, let us say, unlimited desire to assist. As players we are shown to be something of an unstoppable force. In Ul'dah specifically, players who start there directly act against the Syndicate's dark master, and there's nothing he can do about it.

Adventurers WILL join the guilds, because they need to be able to fulfill any request given to them for any reason or no reason at all. The refugees are prevented from 'finding work' because they're at the mercy of Lolorito and the Money is Power system of Ul'dah reborn.

Actually, even towards the player the Guilds are shown to be somewhat insular and exclusive - after all you're only allowed to join one right at the start (the guild of whatever class you start the game as), and that's only after you first register at the Adventurer's Guild and are directed there by the proprietor. Presumably it's all a matter of red tape - average people may want to try and join a guild, but unless they have that permission from the Adventurer's Guild, they're out of luck (presumably this is also the cause of the situation of the antagonist in that FATE you mentioned - it was probably bureaucracy that caused her to be refused entry into the Guilds she applied to).

And even then, you're not allowed to join any other Guild until you've actually shown promise in your initial profession (as in, done the first few quests for the Guild), and are given permission by the Guildmaster to do so. It seems to me to be a very rigid way of education, but not too unlike real world history where trade Guilds were notoriously close minded and had stringent recruitment and training protocols.

Adventurers don't get to live inside Ul'dah either, and it takes doing a pretty awesome favour for the city before we're even able to stay at the inn. Presumably until then, you've had to bivouac in the field with all the refugees.
For joining the guilds, if you can't at least kill some moles, hornets and rats, or spin some hemp etc, you won't be worth their time and will get turned away.

For Ul'dahn education, my bet is on the Milvaneth Sacrarium running an expensive and exclusive private education system.

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Originally Posted by Catapult

Adventurers don't get to live inside Ul'dah either, and it takes doing a pretty awesome favour for the city before we're even able to stay at the inn. Presumably until then, you've had to bivouac in the field with all the refugees.
For joining the guilds, if you can't at least kill some moles, hornets and rats, or spin some hemp etc, you won't be worth their time and will get turned away.

For Ul'dahn education, my bet is on the Milvaneth Sacrarium running an expensive and exclusive private education system.

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After all, there are loads of books and literature in Eorzea! And judging by market wards, books seem to have some value (including history books, etc). And most people seem to be literate - ordinary citizens in Limsa reading signs, the pirates in Sastasha leaving clues on parchment, Gerolt reading books about weapon's history... Heck, the people we get challenge logs from even keep journals!

You can't tell me they're all just born with the innate ability to read - it has to be taught and learned somewhere! It may not be evidence of a school (homeschooling, for example), but it is certainly an important enough skill (if even average citizens display literacy) to warrant there would be several places of learning somewhere.

Whilst we do have a lot of lore, there is so much more room to flesh out our cities in a myriad of different ways, which gets me so excited thinking about the possibilities! :)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

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The thing is though, I doubt the NPCs you find in the guilds are adventurers. Like, the goldsmiths are just goldsmiths. They aren't goldsmiths AND Alchemists AND Weavers. So the guilds accept non-adventurers. There's a quest in the weavers guild that has you recruit random citizens to their ranks.

And remember, the cities know nothing about us. For UD, we arrive via carriage with no background and are welcomed (in that we can freely join guilds) inside. I find it hard to believe that the refugees outside UD are too lazy to pick up a sword and be a Gladiator if it means eating that night. We have no history when we arrive in town. What makes us so different from the random people outside UD? They lost their homes and look for asylum in UD, sorta like us. Well we are immigrants just like them anyway.

This is way before we prove ourselves as professional badasses. Before we join a GC. Before we help the citizens with their quests. We are fresh "off the boat" people.

Well, I think in the Ul'dahn case at least, it's more just a case of Ul'dahn wealth-based bigotry then. The player is immediately identified as an adventurer when they first set foot in Ul'dah, not as a refugee (probably due to the weapon on their hip easily identifying them as such and their clothes not being tattered rags). Also it just seems a lot of refugees just have given up hope of ever rising themselves above their miserable circumstances and so do not attempt to do so, resulting in the social problems that go along with that.

Incidentally, refugees wanting to settle in Gridania are even more strictly dealt with - they're made to stay in an outlying community for a few days while the Hearers consult the elementals about whether they should be allowed or not. Naturally, the result is often not what they like (which explains also the large amount of bandits and poachers in the Shroud - they're often refugees who have been refused settlement in Gridania and have resorted to less legal means to survive).

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Originally Posted by Kyan

After all, there are loads of books and literature in Eorzea! And judging by market wards, books seem to have some value (including history books, etc). And most people seem to be literate - ordinary citizens in Limsa reading signs, the pirates in Sastasha leaving clues on parchment, Gerolt reading books about weapon's history... Heck, the people we get challenge logs from even keep journals!

You can't tell me they're all just born with the innate ability to read - it has to be taught and learned somewhere! It may not be evidence of a school (homeschooling, for example), but it is certainly an important enough skill (if even average citizens display literacy) to warrant there would be several places of learning somewhere.

Whilst we do have a lot of lore, there is so much more room to flesh out our cities in a myriad of different ways, which gets me so excited thinking about the possibilities! :)

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Well, as a start, the description for the Midlander Hyur clan on the FF Wiki (that was the original description for the Midlanders on the old Lodestone) mentions that language is taught to them from a very early age, so yes there definitely has to be some kind of education going on:

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Originally Posted by FF Wiki, from the version 1.0 Lodestone

Trained in letters from infancy, the Midlanders are generally more educated than many of the other races and clans.

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Whether this means home schooling or a more formal educational system is anyone's guess though, but it's possible the Guilds do have some part to play in that (especially the crafting and gathering Guilds would have especially useful traits for those seeking more 'mundane' employment).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Well, I think in the Ul'dahn case at least, it's more just a case of Ul'dahn wealth-based bigotry then. ... Also it just seems a lot of refugees just have given up hope of ever rising themselves above their miserable circumstances and so do not attempt to do so, resulting in the social problems that go along with that.

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Also to support you Enkidoh, weren't the Ala Mhigan's refused aid by Ul'dahn law? Perhaps guilds did not want to accept refugees because of this? (That, and a lot of the guilds are owned by people on the syndicate).

But, it is not like all Ala Mhigan refugees have been denied access and aid, or have given in to their nationalism and pride. Whilst we see examples of the downtrodden outside the Ul'dah, in Pearl Lane or at Little Ala Mhigo, and the twisted and bitter Ala Mhigan bandits in Southern Thanalan (who rape, loot and pillage 'in the name of their king'), there are many examples of Ala Mhigan refugees who have been motivated enough to excel. For example, Raubahn, an Ala Mhigan who did become a gladiator, bought his way into the Syndicate through his winnings. There are also many Ala Mhigans in the miner's and gladiator's guilds, too. And, an exceptional case, we have Minfillia!

I just want to add - is it not said during Ul'dah's opening story in 2.0 that, of the refugees outside Ul'dah, these people are not just Ala Mhigan, but also people who are displaced because of the Calamity?

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Originally Posted by Kyan

I just want to add - is it not said during Ul'dah's opening story in 2.0 that, of the refugees outside Ul'dah, these people are not just Ala Mhigan, but also people who are displaced because of the Calamity?

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This is true. It's also worth mentioning that we are playing the game in the guise of the hero. Be that a Warrior of Light or Defender of Eorzea, we are forced onward to complete the campaign or scenario. If we remove the perception that every Ul'dah refuge is capable of being a player character, it become plausible that many are simply unable to succeed within the various guilds or even the adventurer's guild. Those without proper shelter, food or water are likely going to be less likely to take up a weapon and defend a city that won't even let them past their walls. Likewise, those that may succeed at killing hornets may prove to be inept at killing Efts or larger enemies and would likely give up adventuring. Without the mere means to defend one's self in the wilds, it seems unlikely that any refuge would succeed at a Disciple of Hand class either as it requires either the means to either gather materials yourself or have sufficient enough funds to purchase materials from the market board.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Well, I think in the Ul'dahn case at least, it's more just a case of Ul'dahn wealth-based bigotry then. The player is immediately identified as an adventurer when they first set foot in Ul'dah, not as a refugee (probably due to the weapon on their hip easily identifying them as such and their clothes not being tattered rags). Also it just seems a lot of refugees just have given up hope of ever rising themselves above their miserable circumstances and so do not attempt to do so, resulting in the social problems that go along with that.

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Is there a term for this? Because I'm pretty sure "class warfare" is that term.

With Ul'dah, it seems to me that the refugees are treated in much the same way as the real world homeless. I mean, you guys even make it sound the same. "Why don't they go join a guild?" "Why not just go get a job?" The refugees probably got refused by the guild the minute they entered, wearing pretty much rags and no skill to show for it. So sure, it would be nice if someone went and taught them a skill or two so that they can go and join a guild, but in a city like Ul'dah who would do that?
And as for picking up a sword and joining up to be a gladiator in order to eat...That's like telling a homeless person that if they're hungry, they should go and try to join the military. Go put yourself in harm's way and hope that you get accepted and fed.
We as adventurers do this because that is what we are. We throw ourselves into the fray and relish in the life of danger and adventure. That's not the life that every average citizen is capable of.

Lastly, and I promise this is the last, sure, those people who are in the guilds may be ONLY goldsmiths, or ONLY armorers, but they have dedicated years to their craft and I'm sure that they can craft things that are way beyond us. I mean, we have to go to Serendipity to get a mammet made. Why? I'm a lvl 50 gsm couldn't I have made it? Nope, because for all intents and purposes, I may be a really good goldsmith, but I probably only know the lite version of the craft. The real thing requires dedication and years of practice and honing the craft.

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Originally Posted by Kicha

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Isn't it the guilds' job to train people. If they don't know the basics of combat, that's what the guild does. That's why the first task we have is to kill bugs, not only to see if we can, but to teach us which side of the sword to hold. Someone who never held a sword before in thier life, can go to the GLA guild and learn the basics. As they get higher level, they are charged with more responsibility and killing bigger and badder beasts. Think about us when we join another guild at 10.


Let's say we're GLA level 10, we know the basics of swordplay. We decide to go to the LNC guild in Grid without having lifted up a spear our entire lives. They LNC guild trains us first the basics (more bug killing) then as we get experience, we train against harder foes. To expect you have skill in a guild to be able to join is a Catch 22. How are we supposed to be trained when the trainers only accept trained individuals?

To go with the real world military analogy, civvies join the military and the military trains them on how to use their weapon. Volunteers probably have never fired a gun before, but the military still accepts them even though they have no skill. It's the military's job to train them.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Is there a term for this? Because I'm pretty sure "class warfare" is that term.

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Classism.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

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I would have to agree that it is the guild's obligation to train those that qualify to join and are given member status; however, I would disagree that any guild is responsible or can afford to take in everyone. Look at poor Cocobusi and the Thaumaturge's quest line as an example. Fortunate enough for Cocobusi, he was granted access to the Alchemist's guild, but he was denied access over the player character because he lack the aptitude for being a Thaumaturge and he had several family members within the guild.

Looking at the real world example, if we were looking specifically at the U.S., the military can deny access to those who are physically unfit, mentally unfit, intellectually unfit or legally unfit. In 2010, it was found that roughly 75-percent of high school seniors fit this category due to things like weight, physical deformities or criminal backgrounds. Of those that are allowed to take the basic entry exam, 25-percent fail, which limits the pool of potential candidates considerably.

If we take this real world example back to Ul'dah, it seems safe to say that most foreign refugees would not qualify the basic needs for joining a guild. Yet, all of this seems unlikely in Ul'dah, which makes it more likely that potential candidates are given entry by basic prowess or aptitude, if it is there. Those that succeed gain entry to the city and eventually access to the inn. Those that are most successful might even get to buy land in the adventurer's districts. Yet, based on the number of refuges, it would seem that most are not very successful at their chosen lot in life and are forced to remain outside of the walls or consort with criminal factions.