Dont understand putting first person shooter mechanics into mmo's

The idea with these new warfronts seems like a bland mix of worn out mechanics that other games (which shall not be mentioned) have been steam rolling on its players for the last 7-8 years. Having your gear automatically lined up to not be weaker or stronger I understand is suppose to allow new people to not be so easily destroyed but its sort of destroying what makes an mmo an mmo. Ok so you have conquered the strongest of dragons and helped saved Eorzea from Bahamut and you shall have the horn of Bahamut but you cannot use its power because you must magically be weakened for the sake of fairness against your opponents who are not as omnipotent as you are.

Yes I even understand wanting to bring pvp into the ff franchise but as the other game (which shall not be mentioned) why are you mimicing it almost to a T when we play FF because of the charm that Final Fantasy brings. The pvp aspect of the other games being mimiced was to trully try to tap into the E-sport and First person shooter crowd to bring them on board with the mmo brand but please thats not the beloved FF of Square Soft I use to know.

You can still keep with the same full try and try successful mmo archetype but try new ideas in small bursts to see what resonates most with the player base. Not mimic a imo inferior brand of mmo or appease of a crowd of gamers that will never be a true FF fan like the majority of us do.

If I speak against those who oppose my view I am sorry for appearing to speak for you as well. I just wish they would redo how they have pvp on Eorzea and not make it a wow copy cat. I guess I did let the name slip in the end.

Ok

/10chars

I'm really not sure what you're talking about, only that "wow copy cat" makes no sense when it comes to Frontlines. Many MMOs have done objective-based matches, and it's something that is done across a few genres. Otherwise I seriously don't understand what you're trying to say.

As someone who has been working hard to obtain PvP gear in the arena, even I understand why they need to discount Morale and PvP gear from Frontlines at first. It'd be no fun if all the rank 30-40 players just obliterated everyone right from the start. People need a chance to get into PvP. They can make PvP gear work in frontlines later on.

It is DotA style and i like it...
In newest trailer you have seen not only capture the flag, but also some interesting tower defence mechanics...
If they manage to have them in one big arena - DotA style - then it becomes very interesting and just the start conditions are for both teams the same!
But i share your fear, it may end in everyone trying to capture always the same because its the best startup strategy...

It is not ment to be pvp, it is an instanced Realm vs Realm - DotA style!
I just wonder if we have enough players, 24 is not much, therefore the map would be very small and if that is then "fun", i wonder...
It may end in Zerging because its the only way to overpower the enemy!

I think they should break it up between ranked where you need a certain level of Morale to play and unranked where it's synced.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

It is DotA style and i like it...
In newest trailer you have seen not only capture the flag, but also some interesting tower defence mechanics...
If they manage to have them in one big arena - DotA style - then it becomes very interesting and just the start conditions are for both teams the same!
But i share your fear, it may end in everyone trying to capture always the same because its the best startup strategy...

It is not ment to be pvp, it is an instanced Realm vs Realm - DotA style!
I just wonder if we have enough players, 24 is not much, therefore the map would be very small and if that is then "fun", i wonder...
It may end in Zerging because its the only way to overpower the enemy!

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it's 24 v 24 v 24 for 72 total.

What I am trying to state is front lines and all instanced based battles really feels like it does not belong to the general MMO franchise. It seems more of an after thought meant to try to attract people from the first person shooter crowds. It is like mixing oil and water. It just seems like it will not work. I do not think it has worked very well on wow as the atmosphere that brings with it is pure toxcicty. And I do miss some of the old UO pvp days. X-bow of vanquishing with a precast ebolt was a nasty combo when i was on its receiving end. Taming 20 dragons and dropping them in front of a rival's guild tower was pure ownage.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

it's 24 v 24 v 24 for 72 total.

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I havnt ment total, i ment your group...
If you try to use the playernumber as "creeps" for DotA style then you dont have enough players with 24...
If you use the players as "Heroes" then 24 is a bit much when adding creeps...

Let's make judgements about content we haven't played yet!

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Originally Posted by Vlady

If I speak against those who oppose my view I am sorry for appearing to speak for you as well. I just wish they would redo how they have pvp on Eorzea and not make it a wow copy cat. I guess I did let the name slip in the end.

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How is this a WoW Copy exactly? You know FFXI was out before WoW and FFXI had PvP as well? How dare SE to use a System out of their own Games.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KvlEgdXRp7...y44lo1_500.gif

Lol. That history post of wow pvp is horribly inaccurate. Just gaining the pvp ranks back when the honor system came out itself was a popularity contest in addition to having no life. All the top Grand Marshal or high warlord's obtained the rank through manipulating the system to cock block the general society from gaining honor by bouncing the requirement between friends. People would purposely lose and purposely be allowed to win to bounce the requirements around depending on who the top dogs of the pvp guild's on your server were.

FF11 had only objective based pvp, the objectives could be ignored but their was always some form of point system that involved more so doing things then fighting each other. Heck they added Brenner in 11 that had huge pvp maps for 1 on 1 but fighting each other straight forward was pointless, 1 on 1 and fighting each other will cause both players to loose. Also front lines has 0 to do with first person shooters... Capture the flag I was playing before duke nukem was even created(which was a fps but no mp). All these "games" are things that everyone plays in real life growing up as a kid they are not taking anything from other MMO's if anything MMO's are observing our lives and stealing our games that we play for free for profit, I mean how dare they add in peoples favorite RL games.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

What I am trying to state is front lines and all instanced based battles really feels like it does not belong to the general MMO franchise.

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I think you missed the whole point of battlegrounds in mmos.

I'm done here.

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Originally Posted by BearGrylls

As someone who has been working hard to obtain PvP gear in the arena, even I understand why they need to discount Morale and PvP gear from Frontlines at first. It'd be no fun if all the rank 30-40 players just obliterated everyone right from the start. People need a chance to get into PvP. They can make PvP gear work in frontlines later on.

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This is the magic wording right here. At first.

They will ease up and make changes once more people get involved, I'm sure. This is most likely just a tactical decision
so people don't get inside, get blown up to pieces, and are immediately discouraged. I think it's a decent move considering
PvP doesn't have a very large following right now. Hopefully this gets more people involved and wanting to continue.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

What I am trying to state is front lines and all instanced based battles really feels like it does not belong to the general MMO franchise. It seems more of an after thought meant to try to attract people from the first person shooter crowds. It is like mixing oil and water. It just seems like it will not work. I do not think it has worked very well on wow as the atmosphere that brings with it is pure toxcicty. And I do miss some of the old UO pvp days. X-bow of vanquishing with a precast ebolt was a nasty combo when i was on its receiving end. Taming 20 dragons and dropping them in front of a rival's guild tower was pure ownage.

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Yeah...I'm just gonna back up real slow-like and exit this thread.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

What I am trying to state is front lines and all instanced based battles really feels like it does not belong to the general MMO franchise. It seems more of an after thought meant to try to attract people from the first person shooter crowds. It is like mixing oil and water. It just seems like it will not work. I do not think it has worked very well on wow as the atmosphere that brings with it is pure toxcicty. And I do miss some of the old UO pvp days. X-bow of vanquishing with a precast ebolt was a nasty combo when i was on its receiving end. Taming 20 dragons and dropping them in front of a rival's guild tower was pure ownage.

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Honestly I'm confused as to what you disagree with. PvP? Instance style battlegrounds? Item level sync?

Well thank you for visiting the thread. Have a good day.

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Originally Posted by Swishytail

This is the magic wording right here. At first.

They will ease up and make changes once more people get involved, I'm sure. This is most likely just a tactical decision
so people don't get inside, get blown up to pieces, and are immediately discouraged. I think it's a decent move considering
PvP doesn't have a very large following right now. Hopefully this gets more people involved and wanting to continue.

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I've always felt gear advantages are silly in PvP. It should be skill and experience instead of getting rolled cause your opponent has been playing 2 months longer than you even if all they do is mash a couple buttons and you're tickling them with your lower level weapon and not even scratching them.

That's just me though.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

What I am trying to state is front lines and all instanced based battles really feels like it does not belong to the general MMO franchise. It seems more of an after thought meant to try to attract people from the first person shooter crowds. It is like mixing oil and water. It just seems like it will not work. I do not think it has worked very well on wow as the atmosphere that brings with it is pure toxcicty. And I do miss some of the old UO pvp days. X-bow of vanquishing with a precast ebolt was a nasty combo when i was on its receiving end. Taming 20 dragons and dropping them in front of a rival's guild tower was pure ownage.

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It worked in Ragnrok.
War of Emperium was the best there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6QoGEEq_c

And, the most important, it is oler than WoW

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Honestly I'm confused as to what you disagree with. PvP? Instance style battlegrounds? Item level sync?

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I do not see where I am confusing you. I want Final Fantasy to focus on what it does best as a maturing mmo franchise and stick to what it knows best. Trying to incorporate MECHANICS found in a first person shooter type game does not fit it one bit. Instanced map based team vs team battles.

Your opinion has been noted...I guess? I don't know, I like PvE and I like PvP. They're different beasts. You seem to hate on the fact that gear is equalized..but then hate on the fact PvP even exists. I don't know, PvP and PvE can co-exist. The world will still turn.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

I do not see where I am confusing you. I want Final Fantasy to focus on what it does best as a maturing mmo franchise and stick to what it knows best. Trying to incorporate MECHANICS found in a first person shooter type game does not fit it one bit. Instanced map based team vs team battles.

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Which was allready in FFXI as well. So what the heck you are talking about?

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Instanced map based team vs team battles.

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Sorry but "First Person Shooter Mechanic" wasn't as clear as this. I hate to break it to you but battlegrounds are liked by many people otherwise it would have died out. If fact it's now an expected feature in most MMO's these days. It's your opinion they don't work but their success tells otherwise.

I gotta give the OP credit... this is the first time I've ever seen someone compare PvP combat in an MMORPG to an FPS, particularly in reference to there being objective based goals.

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Originally Posted by Vlady

What I am trying to state is front lines and all instanced based battles really feels like it does not belong to the general MMO franchise. It seems more of an after thought meant to try to attract people from the first person shooter crowds. It is like mixing oil and water. It just seems like it will not work. I do not think it has worked very well on wow as the atmosphere that brings with it is pure toxcicty. And I do miss some of the old UO pvp days. X-bow of vanquishing with a precast ebolt was a nasty combo when i was on its receiving end. Taming 20 dragons and dropping them in front of a rival's guild tower was pure ownage.

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That's because PvP is an afterthought in an MMORPG (usually). It doesn't really mean it's right to consider there being instanced PvP in an MMORPG to be negative though. The whole idea behind it is competitive. That's why you challenge other people... you're trying to be competitive. That is, unless someone were like the little crybabies that can't deal with leveled playing field combat and only enjoy major handicaps in their favor. Corpse camping can be fun when dealt out as payback.

The bad crowd that we see is not a result of PvP in the game. It's not a result of FPS games. It's a result of the ease of access to online gaming. I could spend days talking about how things have changed over time, the mentality that resulted from certain things happening (a cause and effect reaction to technological and social advances), etc.

Basically, something like Frontlines does not affect the toxicity of a community. Player mentality is always bad, no matter what you do or what game you play, you just can't escape that. We're all children, essentially, in that the devs must treat us like that. They can't rely on the playerbase, as a whole, to be adults and responsible enough to not hack, cheat, and underhandedly take advantage of others. It's just the way things are, and the sooner you realize that, the sooner you start to look at new things as enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Felis

It worked in Ragnrok.
War of Emperium was the best there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB6QoGEEq_c

And, the most important, it is oler than WoW

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O I miss those days~

J/K I still play RO, its free to play ;)

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Originally Posted by Vlady

Trying to incorporate MECHANICS found in a first person shooter type game does not fit it one bit.

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You keep repeating "first person shooter". Do you honestly think that instanced player-versus-player battles are unique to the FPS genre or something? It almost sounds like you want some kind of open world full-loot style PvP, which honestly fits the Final Fantasy series even *less* than the sort of level synced, instanced, "FPS-type" battles you're complaining about.

Then again, like Dyvid, I could be misinterpreting your posts, since none of them are making a clear point. You just keep parroting the nonsensical "FPS-style WoW-clone" phrase over and over.

"Im mad because i dont understand that PVP is way more skill based than gear based. In order for me to make up for my lack of skill i want to be able to use better gear than anyone else in there."

This is your reasoning in a nutshell. PVP in most games do this and it is a great feature. Those who have skills win and those who rely solely on their gear lose. IF this is a problem then you need to practice your skills, not complain about something that is good for the game.

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Originally Posted by Swishytail

This is the magic wording right here. At first.

They will ease up and make changes once more people get involved, I'm sure. This is most likely just a tactical decision
so people don't get inside, get blown up to pieces, and are immediately discouraged. I think it's a decent move considering
PvP doesn't have a very large following right now. Hopefully this gets more people involved and wanting to continue.

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Its more than just that. Most of the community that has the top rank PvP gear got it by win trading. Allowing those who simply gamed the system to get top gear to destroy everyone in Frontlines would be a terrible situation. In the end they had the option of trying to police those who got their gear through win trading or invalidate that gear, and they went with the option that was easier.

So... what I'm reading is you don't feel this content deserves to be in an MMO because it doesn't suit what you like. Screw what other players might like in an MMO it's all about what you want.

That or it's just that one guy who hates fun.

I didn't realize territory and capture the flag games were limited to first person shooters...oh that's right. They aren't.

Is the OP really trying to say that team vs team "combat" originated from FPSs? I could be wrong but I do believe this kind of "combat" started in stratagy games idk, like Age of Empires or Warcraft.

So no matter how much it's appent you hate FPSs. PvP didn't start there. And as for my opinion, I might actually like this kind of PvP. Small team PvP just against each other isn't what I like. This is a king of the hill type game where the PvP sound to be less important then defending locations.

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Originally Posted by Wilksha

Is the OP really trying to say that team vs team "combat" originated from FPSs? I could be wrong but I do believe this kind of "combat" started in stratagy games idk, like Age of Empires or Warcraft.

So no matter how much it's appent you hate FPSs. PvP didn't start there. And as for my opinion, I might actually like this kind of PvP. Small team PvP just against each other isn't what I like. This is a king of the hill type game where the PvP sound to be less important then defending locations.

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Agreed.

OP the only thing you said that even makes sense is its BS they are removing gear from people.


People who grinded out the PVP gear SHOULD be able to use it. (I don't have the gear btw.. I realize if I went against them I'd be stomped)

It would make a LOT more sense if you were matched based on ilvl. Would allow people to use their pvp gear and only dumb people (who rolled in with high ilvl PVE gear) would suffer. Anyone with half a brain would grab their pvp gear and go in to matches they should be in.

Of course it woudl have to prevent gear swapping once your queued but that shouldn't be too hard.

Why do you equate FPS with PvP? As far as I can gather the only connections are you kill other players. Is what you are looking for a PvP zone where people run around normally and get ganked?