Sleep related white mage question.

I set up a sleep macro long ago after first getting Repose, which has a party text saying not to attack the purple marked enemy, and have used it when there are 3 or more mobs and no one else sleeping. The macro marks the slept enemy with the Enemy to Bind mark so it's easier to spot. It was never an issue until last night I got with a group, and someone says don't use sleep unless tank marks an enemy, and tank agreed because they swap between enemies on rotation to keep aggro. I told them that sleep is needed when damage is high and healer has to burn through MP like crazy or else I will run out of MP like what happened to me twice my first time doing Brayflox as a healer and popping ether, though luckily no one died as mob and boss died right on time, and that you can still do your rotation, just don't do it on the slept enemy. You don't need to get aggro on a slept enemy, and the rotation in question does not involve AOEs that wake slept enemies because I've played Paladin.

So what is the consensus on sleeping? None of the other parties I've been with had an issue with it.

I've learned when entering a dungeon with PUGs to do the following;

First group of mobs, I push away one trash mob then sleep it. If no one says anything, I continue doing that for the rest of the dungeon. If someone says something about it, I simply don't sleep anymore and let the tank/dps do their own thing.

Hi,

Repose is useful but you have to agree with your team 1st.

When tanking you have to switch aggro. Healer is getting aggro on all mobs, and you can have AoE DPS going around too, or people landing some dots.

Only way for a tank to build aggro on slept mob without breaking sleep is to use flash.
Best used when you are with a GLA/PLD, as a MRD/WAR might want to use overpower breaking the sleep.

About your MP management, if the tank is geared for the content maybe you have change how you heal? I have both heals and main SCH, they work differently, except the cure 1/physick spam :)

OP take it easy, I have seen many players just like blame the healer (or the tank) for anything. ^^;

BTW I recall long time ago I read something like
If you sleep a mob before the tank has any aggro, then even the tank flash the slept mob will not gain aggro as the mob is slept.
Could anyone clarify this? thanks.

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Originally Posted by Buffo_The_Clown

I've learned when entering a dungeon with PUGs to do the following;

First group of mobs, I push away one trash mob then sleep it. If no one says anything, I continue doing that for the rest of the dungeon. If someone says something about it, I simply don't sleep anymore and let the tank/dps do their own thing.

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As a tank main, I have to say that I really dislike having mobs shoved away from me when I've already got control of them. I know where I'd like the mobs to be placed and what direction I want them to face. If the mob is attacking you (hey, it happens), sure use Fluid Aura. It's a great tool for defending yourself. If you can shove it toward me all the better. If your tank has control of the mob though, why shove it away? That means we can't hit it with Flash, which means the healer is gathering aggro on it unopposed. When it wakes up, it's going to go for the healer if the tank doesn't grab it back. So we either waste TP shield lobbing/tomahawking it back over or we get to chase it. Dragging mobs around gimps your dps during the time that they're moving (they get dragged out of lingering AoE's like Shadow Flare and melee dps can't effectively flank them). If it's a big pull and we're just nuking it with AoE's, suddenly we're wasting time killing a single mob that was shoved out of them.

Don't get me wrong; I love a WHM that can use a well-placed Repose to reduce the damage I'm taking. It's less stressful for me and for them. It's just as easy (easier, in fact) to put the mob to sleep where it's at instead of causing more problems by purposely pushing it away where your tank doesn't have control over it anymore.

Feel free to repose as often as you like. Once a mob is slept, it doesn't gain aggro unless dots are placed on it before applying sleep, or an enmity move like flash or provoke is used on it. This means that the tank has one less target to cycle through while using their hate combo since they can simply ignore it until the sleep timer is up. If your party is actively aoe'ing every pack, you're more likely to have your sleeps being broken, and should just stick to healing. Otherwise, repose is a great mitigation tool, and lets you put out plenty of dps without having to worry so much about the amount of incoming damage.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Stuff

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Thank you for letting me know about that... I'll sleep targets next to tanks from now on.

Fluid Aura I tend to always position myself so that if I do gain agro and a mob runs at me I will push it straight at the tank and it will end up next to him. As for repos if I see tank getting extra damage I will heal through the first time then start sleeping mobs... usually one at most. If they break the sleep no prob if it lasted for all of 5s that's 5s of no extra damage to the tank. And I do have a sound macro for sleeping as well so that everyone is aware of it.

The part about mobs not accumating aggro while under the sleep debuff... I'm not trying to argue that you're misinformed, but is there any documentation to support this? I've gotten a lot of conflicting info on this subject, and honestly, I'd make a lot more use of sleep were aggro from cures for the duration not actually an issue.

As for fluid aura, I only really ever use this if under attack and can move the mob in a way so as its more accessible to the tank, or to push ranged mobs back into the melee pack, or on bosses immune to knock back for some added dps during my stance dance.

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Originally Posted by Buffo_The_Clown

I've learned when entering a dungeon with PUGs to do the following;

First group of mobs, I push away one trash mob then sleep it. If no one says anything, I continue doing that for the rest of the dungeon. If someone says something about it, I simply don't sleep anymore and let the tank/dps do their own thing.

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Whatever works. I personally wouldn't do that. Just depends on the group. I don't see anything wrong with this though since you said you listen to group if they have an issue with it.

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Originally Posted by Thaliss

Hi,

Repose is useful but you have to agree with your team 1st.

When tanking you have to switch aggro. Healer is getting aggro on all mobs, and you can have AoE DPS going around too, or people landing some dots.

Only way for a tank to build aggro on slept mob without breaking sleep is to use flash.
Best used when you are with a GLA/PLD, as a MRD/WAR might want to use overpower breaking the sleep.

About your MP management, if the tank is geared for the content maybe you have change how you heal? I have both heals and main SCH, they work differently, except the cure 1/physick spam :)

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I already know that which is why I mentioned that in topic, but you only have to switch aggro on mobs that are not slept. When I tanked the first few dungeons and a mob was slept I didn't do my target swapping on that mob to avoid waking it up. You don't need to keep aggro on a slept mob because the mob is inactive. Only once it wakes up. :) The tank must of been badly geared. My gear is up to date and I had no choice but to Cure II as Cure I was barely doing anything at all and dropping more than Cure I was healing, and Cure II eats MP fast. And I do listen to team, though doesn't mean I won't tell them why I think that's wrong. I figure okay if that's how someone feels I'll stop, but when I run out of MP and people die as a result don't look at me. My MP management is fine as the only thing I have to do at low levels like this is not waste MP by spamming Cure II or other costlier spells unless needed. I don't overheal, and I try to use Cure I unless only Cure II is possible to outheal the damage, and of course take advantage of free cure. I also don't use MP on dps if the amount of healing needed is high enough to eat MP fast.

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

OP take it easy, I have seen many players just like blame the healer (or the tank) for anything. ^^;

BTW I recall long time ago I read something like
If you sleep a mob before the tank has any aggro, then even the tank flash the slept mob will not gain aggro as the mob is slept.
Could anyone clarify this? thanks.

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Yeah, sometimes the blame is legit, and sometimes not.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

As a tank main, I have to say that I really dislike having mobs shoved away from me when I've already got control of them. I know where I'd like the mobs to be placed and what direction I want them to face. If the mob is attacking you (hey, it happens), sure use Fluid Aura. It's a great tool for defending yourself. If you can shove it toward me all the better. If your tank has control of the mob though, why shove it away? That means we can't hit it with Flash, which means the healer is gathering aggro on it unopposed. When it wakes up, it's going to go for the healer if the tank doesn't grab it back. So we either waste TP shield lobbing/tomahawking it back over or we get to chase it. Dragging mobs around gimps your dps during the time that they're moving (they get dragged out of lingering AoE's like Shadow Flare and melee dps can't effectively flank them). If it's a big pull and we're just nuking it with AoE's, suddenly we're wasting time killing a single mob that was shoved out of them.

Don't get me wrong; I love a WHM that can use a well-placed Repose to reduce the damage I'm taking. It's less stressful for me and for them. It's just as easy (easier, in fact) to put the mob to sleep where it's at instead of causing more problems by purposely pushing it away where your tank doesn't have control over it anymore.

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Yeah I never use Fluid Aura unless it is a must like I'm being aggrod and it's too much, or another ranged dps being aggrod, especially if tank doesn't seem to notice.

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

Feel free to repose as often as you like. Once a mob is slept, it doesn't gain aggro unless dots are placed on it before applying sleep, or an enmity move like flash or provoke is used on it. This means that the tank has one less target to cycle through while using their hate combo since they can simply ignore it until the sleep timer is up. If your party is actively aoe'ing every pack, you're more likely to have your sleeps being broken, and should just stick to healing. Otherwise, repose is a great mitigation tool, and lets you put out plenty of dps without having to worry so much about the amount of incoming damage.

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Exactly my thoughts. I also don't use Repose unless it seems needed, even if more than 2 mobs. In example the damage output vs heals, like when I first did brayflox as healer I had no choice but to use Cure II like crazy as Cure I barely healed anything and my gear was all dungeon gear and high quality up to date. So it was one of those groups where toggling cleric stance on/off and dpsing between heals was not an option. Full on hardcore healing, and MP drained fast.

So often I find peope like to place blame without fully understanding, awesome your making the effort. Tanks need to be the first to tag any enemies, casters and ranged all to often will tag an enemy with a dot before tank is even close enough to flash. If this happens it is near impossible for tank to regain agro. Often tankwill be blamed when it was the dps healer. Also dps needs to back tank (except in special instances boss fight dynamics. This is where markers can come in handy for a team who has trouble getting together on a single enemy (the one tank decided to go for 1st)

When a team is spread out on multiple enemies multiple people will be taking damage due to resulting agro issues. in this case us healers go through mp fast as we are focusing on whole party not just the tank. You often don't need to sleep if dps backs the tank effectively. Sleep I find to be most effective in such instances but again its due to shotty dpsing and usually letting the part know is important cause they'll just wake your sleeps for the same reason you need to use it in the 1st place. I as healer find throwing u a mark on the enemy tank is attacking just as effective sometimes.

oh and also somewhere around that level, maybe vigil tanks need o learn o avoid aoes, not such a big deal prior (except bombs), espec. since alot of early aoes can be shut down, but a leveling tank might not be aware of the gravity of the aoes in the higher level instances esecially ones that produce stacks. Most people are usually receptive to information but other go on the aggressive blaming everyone else. I find usually it is more the aoe then the number of adds that can bring a tank down quick. When there is adds I wouldn't let tank health fall too low before you start casting. I understand conserving mana but you will be healingthe same amount of hp regardless and it could mean the difference between life an death in the end. I typically dont like my tank to ever get to half health i start casting as soon as they take a hit. and it leaves me time to spam some d.o.t.s allowing enemies to come down quicker making my healing brayflox easier.

Your squishy tank was probably getting hit in the back. Starting in brayflox this sort of positioning can make the damage become pretty intense. When I notice this rookie mistake I'll say, "I notice you sandwich yourself between mobs to try to hold them all but you can't block or parry from behind so you're taking a lot more damage." Tank usual response, "Really? Thanks, I didn't know that."

Flash works perfectly on grabbing slept targets. Marking slept targets is fine for most but never mark the kill order for the tank. It is some sort of social faux pas and will guarantee irritate your tank.

Sleep is a good way for WHM to mitigate damage, but I honestly feel like it's not needed 99% of the time, and it just makes the run take longer. If your tank can hold aggro, and utilize his cooldowns, then the better option is to just let the DPS AoE and burn the mob. The faster they kill the group, the less overall damage the tank would take, and MP wouldn't be an issue.

Aye and deepening on what Tank you get in Bray, since both Tanks have a skill that reduces damage dealt to them but WAR get there's at LV30 while PLD, 40.

But yeah, if they a good Tank, 1 Mob alseep shouldn't be a problem. Once all other mobs die then Sleep mob wakes up with ton of Aggro on you the solution is provoke, problem solved but at last it all depends on how your team thinks and works.

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Originally Posted by Martin_Arcainess

Aye and deepening on what Tank you get in Bray, since both Tanks have a skill that reduces damage dealt to them but WAR get there's at LV30 while PLD, 40.

But yeah, if they a good Tank, 1 Mob alseep shouldn't be a problem. Once all other mobs die then Sleep mob wakes up with ton of Aggro on you the solution is provoke, problem solved but at last it all depends on how your team thinks and works.

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You meant skills for increased enmity and more HP but reduces damage the player does, not received (unless I miss read defiance and shield oath) :)
Reduction of damage skills they have already access to skill at low levels, it is the rotation of those skills that are important, not burning all at the same time.

EDIT : using more my WAR than PLD I was half wrong, for WAR the Defiance is +25% HP and -25% less damage dealt as Shield Oath is Damage Reduction 20% and -20% damage dealt.

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

Sleep is a good way for WHM to mitigate damage, but I honestly feel like it's not needed 99% of the time, and it just makes the run take longer. If your tank can hold aggro, and utilize his cooldowns, then the better option is to just let the DPS AoE and burn the mob. The faster they kill the group, the less overall damage the tank would take, and MP wouldn't be an issue.

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^
This.
As a tank, I don't care about Fluid Aura at all. After a few seconds mob will come back to me anyway.
But I HATE BLM/WHM who sleeps mobs.
Maybe some really bad PLD need it because they have aggro control issues, but any semi-decent WAR or PLD doesn't need sleep/repose on mobs.
It only makes dungeons last longer and become more boring.

I'm a healer too (WHM/SCH) and there is absolutely no dungeon where sleep is needed or that I have been any close to running out of MP.

If a healer needs sleep so he/she doesn't run out of MP, this healer is doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Gamma621

Sleep is a good way for WHM to mitigate damage, but I honestly feel like it's not needed 99% of the time, and it just makes the run take longer. If your tank can hold aggro, and utilize his cooldowns, then the better option is to just let the DPS AoE and burn the mob. The faster they kill the group, the less overall damage the tank would take, and MP wouldn't be an issue.

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That makes sense if you believe that WHM can't contribute except to be a heal bot.
Let's say tank is taking a group of 3 mobs. I know I can get some shots in between heals and speed things up. Then we have a large pull with say 5-6 mobs, then I have to just heal, because tank is taking so much damage. But if I can sleep 2 of them, then I can contribute to the damage and speed things up. Usually it's ruined by AoE's from bards or whatnot that do minimal damage and just serve to wake up sleepers, and put me out of damage mode again. It actually slows things down.

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Originally Posted by aerolol

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This.
As a tank, I don't care about Fluid Aura at all. After a few seconds mob will come back to me anyway.
But I HATE BLM/WHM who sleeps mobs.
Maybe some really bad PLD need it because they have aggro control issues, but any semi-decent WAR or PLD doesn't need sleep/repose on mobs.
It only makes dungeons last longer and become more boring.

I'm a healer too (WHM/SCH) and there is absolutely no dungeon where sleep is needed or that I have been any close to running out of MP.

If a healer needs sleep so he/she doesn't run out of MP, this healer is doing something wrong.

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At high levels, a WHM can just throw up medica 2 and spam Holy to really speed things up. But at low lvls, say toto-rak, there can be two mobs that do enough damage to tank where I just have to heal....wait....heal....wait...heal....

but if I sleep one, then I can just attack, attack, attack, attack, heal, switch, attack, attack

Sleep allows us to engage in the fight.

Some people also might think that Stoneskin is as useless as sleep. While it's true that you don't always need Stoneskin, a Free Hit is a Free Hit.

Sometimes the best heal is just a Cure, sometimes the best heal is to get rid of what is doing the hurting. Damage never done is as good as damage done that's cured.

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Originally Posted by aerolol

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I'm a healer too (WHM/SCH) and there is absolutely no dungeon where sleep is needed or that I have been any close to running out of MP.

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This is as good a place as any to point out that in a game where anyone can play any class at pretty much anytime, just saying that you play a class doesn't actually mean that you are any good at it, or that you know what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Skander

The part about mobs not accumating aggro while under the sleep debuff... I'm not trying to argue that you're misinformed, but is there any documentation to support this? I've gotten a lot of conflicting info on this subject, and honestly, I'd make a lot more use of sleep were aggro from cures for the duration not actually an issue.

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It is true and easy to test with another person... have them hit an enemy once then sleep it and benediction them or whatever healing you want to do, it still won't gain hate on you. Sleeping enemies only build hate from actions performed on them.

Re: Sleep, it is useful in lower level dungeons if your party is on the lower end of the level cap and as someone has mentioned, less healing required by the healer means they can contribute more DPS as well. Also, depending on your party setup (particularly if you have a melee DPS) and the size of the enemy group it may be faster to focus one at a time instead of spamming AOEs.

i put stoneskin on tank at end of each pack of mob instead of the last hit , so i'm often free to stay in cleric stance ,so i can begin the next pack with dot's( wind2/earth2 eventually/wind1),then stoneskin/regen on tank( still in cleric stance) ,then swifcast/spam holy (watching my mana) .
Sure there are exeption but for 3 pack mob it's the way i like.
But in lower donjon where i don't have holy , sleep can be a good way too.(or not just switch cleric stance/dps cleric stance/heal etc )

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Originally Posted by EdenLost

That makes sense if you believe that WHM can't contribute except to be a heal bot.
Let's say tank is taking a group of 3 mobs. I know I can get some shots in between heals and speed things up. Then we have a large pull with say 5-6 mobs, then I have to just heal, because tank is taking so much damage. But if I can sleep 2 of them, then I can contribute to the damage and speed things up. Usually it's ruined by AoE's from bards or whatnot that do minimal damage and just serve to wake up sleepers, and put me out of damage mode again. It actually slows things down.

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If you honestly think you're dealing more damage between heals than a DPS using AoE, you are sadly mistaken. White Mages can contribute to DPS plenty, but they shouldn't need "Sleep" to do so. Any decent healer should be able to assess the situation and change modes accordingly, without crippling the other DPS in the party.

If you don't want to do your job as a healer, then you might want to change classes.

I have basically given up on sleeping because no one ever pays attention to it (anymore*). I should not have to tell the party every run I am going to sleep stuff.

* == When I started FFXIV back in SEP, even through till DEC or so people respected sleeping. Over the last 2-3 months no one pays attention for it. No one tags mobs. No one even uses common sense to attack the mob the tank is beating on if they didn't tag mobs.

Sleeping mobs brings almost no benefit to dungeon runs. It makes it harder to manage aggro and just slows down the run in general. If you have time to sleep it's better to put on clerics stance and either holy or throw out some dots and stone 2s.