Vote dismissal refining is needed.

The topic pretty much says it all. The Vote Dismissal system needs to be refined.

In this post, I will go over the following:

1. Why refine the system?
2. What mayhaps is cause for a notion to refine it soon?
3. Possible solutions to mitigate abuse/misuse.
4. Concluding remarks. (If any)

Why refine the system?

The system needs to be refined in order to prevent misuse of vote dismissals. It is far too easy to dismiss someone and not even the appropriate provided reason needs to be selected. The initializer (person starting the vote) simply needs to get it going and others que in with their casted votes.

What mayhaps is the cause for a notion to refine it soon?

Let me start be explaining that vote dismissal gives a party/group the freedom to progress through content should something go awry. Such as losing a member via Error 90000 who subsequently does not return in a timely manner. Vote dismissal is a utility-based function in this case.

So then let me ask, is vote dismissal a means to control who gets to be in a group and who doesn't in any aspect or scenario? This is precisely where the line must be drawn between proper usage and abuse/misuse.

Too often vote dismissal is being used to remove individuals that are simply "not liked" because they are under-performing in ability or said something that was not even remotely "rude" sounding. These attitudes and perceptions are leading to unwarranted abuse/misuse.

Possible solutions to mitigate abuse/misuse.

More stringent enforcement on vote dismissal's abuse/misuse. This means more active review of information logs, persistent punishment issuance, and more frequent reminders. Though this may reduce the statistics by a little bit at a time, it helps nonetheless. However, it is probably the least favorable solution.

Enhanced UI based menu system. Add more reasons to select from when starting a vote dismissal. This will should include something that will be a sort of "self-signing" agreement option. For example, the current reasons provided are "AFK, Offline, Harassment, Cheating." Add a fifth that maybe is called "Suspected Inappropriate Behavior." Selecting this should prompt the initiator with a message like:

"By choosing 'Suspected Inappropriate Behavior' you understand the submitted vote dismissal will be submitted for review. Should you be found guilty of misusing Vote Dismiss, you agree to be subjected to appropriate consequences that will follow."

By confirming the message and continuing on with the dismissal process, this should act as a deterrent in which that individual will be given one last chance to change their mind.

Concluding remarks. (If any)

Some may consider arguments over the validity of certain vote dismissals to be trivial and/or insignificant. But some consider it as unfair play. Everyone deserves to be able to participate in content despite level of ability. Growth starts somewhere and somehow. Everyone also deserves to be intelligently analyzed as disruptive or not. Simply not liking a person because they exhume an aura of unfriendliness is not a reason to vote dismiss. Nothing has happened yet, unless it does end up becoming a case of "verbal" harassment.

Reasons such as "I have little patience/tolerance for bigotry" is insufficient reason to vote dismiss and coincides with the abuse/misuse terms of not adhering to the vote dismissal's provided reasons.

Just letting you know that if you edit your post you're able to exceed the 1000 char limit and would only need 1 post for all of this.

On another note, I have done hundreds of solo duties and have only ever had to deal with 1 issue where vote kick was abused so I don't really think that changes are necessary based on personal experience. Not to say that others may not experience more of this but in my opinion the system is generally working as intended. If this was happening to me more often I would probably agree but so far it seems like a very small issue in a large pool of bigger issues.

inb4 someone says u can edit... darn it too late :(

I apologize for what may appear as "spam" or unnecessary. I don't post much on here, and when I do it is usually to attempt to make a stance on fairness with the game. Just as I am trying to enjoy my time with the game and community, I am sure others are trying to do the same. But it doesn't seem to be without the constant self-motivating GM-wannabes that think they can control how the game should be played. We all like winning, we all want stuff for our character(s) and account, and we all want our time to mean something or be worth the while. But I draw the line when people are victimized unfairly because an existing system was used in a way that was not intended merely to suit the end-goals of someone else.

Also, as a minor side-effect, if my proposed suggestion passes, it could mean fewer people being penalized for using certain systems wrongfully. Which can also lead to less grief and frustration. A lot of individuals tend to just do things on a whim without thinking ahead as to how it may later impact them. As they say, "karma is a b****." (well, I'm sure they say it differently perhaps).

I have a remedy, stop getting dismissed from your party for some awkward reason. Change the way you play or if it is in regards to someone else help them change to best accommodate the group. Thus would negate anyone from getting kicked. Solved without getting kicked lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vittorino

I have a remedy, stop getting dismissed from your party for some awkward reason. Change the way you play or if it is in regards to someone else help them change to best accommodate the group. Thus would negate anyone from getting kicked. Solved without getting kicked lol.

---

Not to oust you or anything like that, but you can't simply tell someone to "play better" when they lackadaisically play their role. You will see many inexperienced people as you join a random group. Note the key word "random" here. And sure enough, they might be someone who spams Flash instead of Overpower as a Warrior. Or maybe they are someone who spams Straight Shot as a Lv50 ARC. Whatever the case, these are not appropriate reasons to remove someone. That is what constitutes as abuse with vote dismissal. Using the system as not intended. The best things to be done here is to try and do a quick mentoring or simply not take your chances with a random grouping. No one told you to join a random group and become infuriated or frustrated.

However, in the case of disruptive players. Your words speak truth. Changing the way one interacts on a communicative level can certainly lead to fewer unsightly removals. But it is here that I argue in which many things said are open to interpretation. And it is often the disgusted interpretations that are immediately taken into consideration which ultimately leads to a removal. If in my group there is a healer who isn't geared out to do 1000 hp value heals with Cure 1, calling him/her a muggle might be considered harassment, or it will humor them. But if I simply announce that the group isn't going to beat the event with how it is currently, this can be taken into consideration as "unnecessary negativity." Something like this is often a reason why I see people get abused by the system. They're not directly ousting someone. But they're immediately a "negative Nancy."

Despite the number of players I've been grouped with that have either played poorly or acted in negative manner, I've only ever had a good reason to kick 1 person and, coincidentally, the only person I have ever initiated a kick on. They were griefing the group with the elevators in Praetorium, and hanging back not doing anything after they were called out. All the while they were making some offensive comments in party chat. This is pretty much the type of person this feature is aimed at...along with people who get disconnected and don't come back after a certain period of time. To me the system is working as intended and I have never once seen it abused. Maybe I'm just lucky or something, I don't know. I won't claim that it is perfect though, but it's decent with all things considered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Despite the number of players I've been grouped with that have either played poorly or acted in negative manner, I've only ever had a good reason to kick 1 person and, coincidentally, the only person I have ever initiated a kick on. They were griefing the group with the elevators in Praetorium, and hanging back not doing anything after they were called out. All the while they were making some offensive comments in party chat. This is pretty much the type of person this feature is aimed at...along with people who get disconnected and don't come back after a certain period of time. To me the system is working as intended and I have never once seen it abused. Maybe I'm just lucky or something, I don't know. I won't claim that it is perfect though, but it's decent with all things considered.

---

In the situation you provided, I wholeheartedly agree that goes along the lines of harassment. I too would have done the same thing. Such actions are detrimental to progression all too obviously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altaeciana

Not to oust you or anything like that, but you can't simply tell someone to "play better" when they lackadaisically play their role. You will see many inexperienced people as you join a random group. Note the key word "random" here. And sure enough, they might be someone who spams Flash instead of Overpower as a Warrior. Or maybe they are someone who spams Straight Shot as a Lv50 ARC. Whatever the case, these are not appropriate reasons to remove someone. That is what constitutes as abuse with vote dismissal. Using the system as not intended. The best things to be done here is to try and do a quick mentoring or simply not take your chances with a random grouping. No one told you to join a random group and become infuriated or frustrated.

---

I'll be honest, I just can't agree with this. People can have one expectation however, that people are going to earnestly try to complete the content. I was running Lost City the last few days, trying to get the last Hussar piece I wanted for vanity. The gloves, on the first boss. Even if they didn't drop I'd stay til the end. However, in several of those runs, there was a summoner, the same one mind you. That barely did any dps at all. Any time I got eaten by the first boss, I died. "Almost" every single time(We had a healer who did great DPS on some runs). We tried to talk to him and such, because if I was playing that that level too, we never would clear that first boss. It just would not happen. It was during the first few wipes on that first boss that we found out he had no keyboard. This stems from console players seeing this as a console game before it's an MMO, but I can sort of understand someone having never played an MMO before being like that, so I suggested he get one. Not ordered he get one. The only reason we got past the first boss on the attempts where he was present were either I never got eaten, or the healer DPS'd as well.

So if you're giving advice and whatnot, you most certainly CAN tell someone they need to, or should, play better. Because well, if they don't the group may not go anywhere, and I'm certain they want to complete it just as much as the rest of the group. Being the type who plays to "relax" or is "laid back" is no excuse to expect other people to come down to your pace without trying to go outside of your comfort zone as well.

Have you truly seen this feature abused so much that you think it needs change? I think I've been booted once, in what I would consider an unfair manner, and seeing others get booted unfairly is also a rare sight for me. Certainly not enough that I really think it needs tweaking.

I dont see this getting abused too much. The only time I saw it abused was when I got kicked for giving the tank the advice to not tank the boss for CB HM in the sand pit. After multiple wipes due to everyone standing in the sand getting hit, I ended up getting kicked.
Yeah its annoying when the system is abused but it doesn't happen too often.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kanzaki0

I dont see this getting abused too much. The only time I saw it abused was when I got kicked for giving the tank the advice to not tank the boss for CB HM in the sand pit. After multiple wipes due to everyone standing in the sand getting hit, I ended up getting kicked.
Yeah its annoying when the system is abused but it doesn't happen too often.

---

Tanking it in the sand is actually good, btw. Since the worm only travels around the outside, and puts everyone closer to stones on average.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altaeciana

Not to oust you or anything like that, but you can't simply tell someone to "play better" when they lackadaisically play their role. You will see many inexperienced people as you join a random group. Note the key word "random" here. And sure enough, they might be someone who spams Flash instead of Overpower as a Warrior. Or maybe they are someone who spams Straight Shot as a Lv50 ARC. Whatever the case, these are not appropriate reasons to remove someone. That is what constitutes as abuse with vote dismissal. Using the system as not intended. The best things to be done here is to try and do a quick mentoring or simply not take your chances with a random grouping. No one told you to join a random group and become infuriated or frustrated.

However, in the case of disruptive players. Your words speak truth. Changing the way one interacts on a communicative level can certainly lead to fewer unsightly removals. But it is here that I argue in which many things said are open to interpretation. And it is often the disgusted interpretations that are immediately taken into consideration which ultimately leads to a removal. If in my group there is a healer who isn't geared out to do 1000 hp value heals with Cure 1, calling him/her a muggle might be considered harassment, or it will humor them. But if I simply announce that the group isn't going to beat the event with how it is currently, this can be taken into consideration as "unnecessary negativity." Something like this is often a reason why I see people get abused by the system. They're not directly ousting someone. But they're immediately a "negative Nancy."

---

The people I see spamming one ability usually don't respond in anyway to chat or any other "stimuli". I don't think those players are actually players. I feel fairly strongly that they are in fact bots. I'd say that the vote dismiss needs to have another option for suspected botting but that's about the only change I'd like to see.

Just want to cheer the readers up and let them know that not all of the community is evil!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ked-Yet-Thread!

If you being kicked out of (at your eyes) silly reasons, the correct fix is report to SE what happened. Automated systems cannot never know if they are used correctly or not.

I do not know if the unwarranted kick problem is really that big. I got kicked once, and it was my fault (DPSed the adds on first mini boss in Brayflox and did not look at the chat window where other players advised me to DPS the boss instead multiple times, because that is way faster for any halfway decent equipped group). Technically, the kick might have been against the ToS, but I think it was ok because I did not watch the window and failed to communicate with the others properly.

Apart from that, even when I got into an argument with another player (which also happens quite rarely), I never got kicked. Communication is everything. If you have a good reason and politely (yes, you can be both concise and polite at the same time...) explain your decisions, chances of getting kicked are _very_ slim. YMMV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raldo

Have you truly seen this feature abused so much that you think it needs change? I think I've been booted once, in what I would consider an unfair manner, and seeing others get booted unfairly is also a rare sight for me. Certainly not enough that I really think it needs tweaking.

---

I can tell you I have and on a daily basis...in all levels of dungeons be it experts, low level dungeons or CT...read my words DAILY BASIS...most used reason : Harrassment. I wonder even if people know the meaning of this word. The thing is, when you are the one being thrown out you dont know the reason why, I can tell you the few times I have been kicked had I seen it was for harrassement they would have had a report on them and not only that.. Accusing someone of harrassment can be considered diffamation and can go very far...Maybe if it was visible for the kick to all including the one being judged, there would be less abuse because then people would have to live with their decision and not hide.

Mei

oups
posted twice

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

If you being kicked out of (at your eyes) silly reasons, the correct fix is report to SE what happened. Automated systems cannot never know if they are used correctly or not.

---

I have read some people mentioned that no action to the bot they reported to SE.
So I can imagine vote kick disputes will not be handled as it is almost impossible to judge, chatlog may not reflect the fact, and the kick was the result of the vote.
Moreover, abusers would abuse reporting as well... ^^; Hope someone tell me his experience if reporting works.

I did report for abuse vote kicking, their answer was that even if you were poorly geared or what not kick was *in essence* valid and they had all the right to do it.

So really, if you get these kind of answers..nothing you can do. Soon you wont be able to play anymore if you dont have i110 even in low level dungeons.

As for bots, I doubt they do something since I saw said bots twice over a week time .....bots do dungeons now...

Mei

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicobo

I have read ... no action to the bot they reported to SE.
So I can imagine vote kick disputes will not be handled ... Hope someone tell me his experience if reporting works.

---

You cannot know about actions done to a given account, because SE will NOT disclose to you them, as you can read on their reply to your petition. So, no one can tell you about that.

Taking as true the number of banned accounts SE will report to us weekly, it doesn't seems reports are overlooked.

I think most of the "don't bother to report, SE don't read" replies are meant more for discourage the use of report feature (and give more free room to bad people), than giving helpful hints.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

Taking as true the number of banned accounts SE will report to us weekly, it doesn't seems reports are overlooked.

---

If you refer to a notice like this one: http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...f91972883f9319 - these are reports about the number of accounts that are _permanently banned_, which usually happens only in these cases:

- RMT
- Cheating

Harassment usually does not lead to permanent banning, at least not on the 1st occasion. Either you get a formal warning (without additional penalties), or you get suspended for anything from 24 to 72 hours.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeiUshu

I can tell you I have and on a daily basis...in all levels of dungeons be it experts, low level dungeons or CT...read my words DAILY BASIS...most used reason : Harrassment. I wonder even if people know the meaning of this word. The thing is, when you are the one being thrown out you dont know the reason why, I can tell you the few times I have been kicked had I seen it was for harrassement they would have had a report on them and not only that.. Accusing someone of harrassment can be considered diffamation and can go very far...Maybe if it was visible for the kick to all including the one being judged, there would be less abuse because then people would have to live with their decision and not hide.

Mei

---

Votekicked on a Daily basis by complete strangers and consistently for harassment? You are doing something wrong. This is not defamation because nothing keep tricks of how often you were kicked and why.

I have used the vote kick system on people who refuse to communicate and drag the group down, I have had several tanks who only use a riot blade and seem to think that is enough to hold enmity after asking them several times to use other abilities to try and hold enmity they continue to just use this one ability and usually cause wipes in the process, I would really like a kick option for failing to communicate!

I must be in the minority - or just really really lucky. I've been in a total of three groups that have vote kicked since I came back to the game. This is out of well over a hundred or so instances. One - we kicked a tank because he was loudmouthed, obnoxious, and very, VERY abusive. He was bad enough that we were willing to wait out another tank.

The second and third times were to remove a DC'd player after giving a reasonable amount of time to do router resets and etc. In fact, there was one time that someone tried several times to initiate a vote kick and the others blocked it because we wanted to finish the instance and the person initiating was being a tool.

So, with these experiences in mind and experiences over the years in other games - I do personally feel that vote kick isn't abused with anywhere NEAR the frequency these forums would have us believe. I think that many times folks who come here complaining about being kicked really ARE just jerks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Altaeciana

Enhanced UI based menu system. Add more reasons to select from when starting a vote dismissal. This will should include something that will be a sort of "self-signing" agreement option. For example, the current reasons provided are "AFK, Offline, Harassment, Cheating." Add a fifth that maybe is called "Suspected Inappropriate Behavior." Selecting this should prompt the initiator with a message like:

"By choosing 'Suspected Inappropriate Behavior' you understand the submitted vote dismissal will be submitted for review. Should you be found guilty of misusing Vote Dismiss, you agree to be subjected to appropriate consequences that will follow."

By confirming the message and continuing on with the dismissal process, this should act as a deterrent in which that individual will be given one last chance to change their mind.

---

I do like this idea a lot, but I feel like people will just select one of the other reasons in order to circimvent the 100% "Reviewal" Process.

I think it doesn't need fiddling with just yet. Yes, it is abused sometimes. But the vote kick has done far more good than bad in my opinion.

To address many of the points being flung around, here's what I have observed regarding some things you are all talking about.

GM Action:

How can someone even know what the GMs do to any degree? They blatantly state that they do not share the results of their "investigations" or give updates to a reported/filed claim.

As far as I can figure out, if a GM contacts me after I submit a report, that's some reassurance that something is being done about my concern. Beyond that, there is not much else to go on by or say.

And as far as anyone can be concerned, any "statistical reports" GMs procure are mainly focused around RMT activity.

Vote Dismissal frequency:

I should probably have stated in the OP that many of the misuses of vote dismiss occur largely in Labyrinth of the Ancients. So unless you have been doing CT related duties, you are likely to notice fewer instances of someone just parading around and acting like they're the party leader of a random group.

Even so, that does not grant immunity to non-CT related duties. I have been in a Dzemael Darkhold random group before and all it takes is a premade group from one server to start apple picking members. That one time I rolled need on those glamour worthy things like the Coliseum Galerus (Melee body piece) and based on the premade group's conclusion, I did something I should not have done. I was removed and I immediately proceeded to file a report.

People like to say "stuff happens" in regards to what may seem as bad luck or simple misfortune. But that's not the case as I constantly watch these abuse cases happen. They have a trend and all share similar qualities.

In defense of the people I watched become removed in those 24-person CT raids, I do something special with my reports. I look up all the people who were in my group and check to see if a bunch are from the same server. If multiple people are from the same server, I check each member and see if they are from the same free company. If in the same free company, it just becomes a very useful bit of ammunition to supplement my report. Because let's face it, someone starts the vote dismiss and people cast their votes. What are the probable outcomes? In the case of same server + same FC, it is a no brainer. I do this work for the GMs with timestamps and everything because I want these motherfers to pay for thinking they had the right of way.

But... Why?!?

You can say I am making a stance on this out of personal vendetta, or to be the odd hero for those who say nothing (or do nothing). Maybe I am just a fool blinded by a wasteful mission. I just want to tell these abusers to suck it up and deal with it.

Quote:

---

* You will be required to select a reason for dismissal. Please be warned that unjustified usage of vote dismiss is a punishable act.

---

S-E, GMs, or whoever the heck it is... an being of authority made it clear in the Path 2.1 notes that misuse/abuse is punishable. So... I want to see some punishment being dished out. Some morons picked the wrong researcher to mess with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeganLaron

I think it doesn't need fiddling with just yet. Yes, it is abused sometimes. But the vote kick has done far more good than bad in my opinion.

---

I disagree.

I don't have any stats to go by, only a general feeling of playing the game, but I would hazard a guess that the vote kick system is vary rarely used for it's intended purpose (AFK etc). At least, very little when compared to how much it is inappropriately used. I say get rid of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KenzieLynch

I disagree.

I don't have any stats to go by, only a general feeling of playing the game, but I would hazard a guess that the vote kick system is vary rarely used for it's intended purpose (AFK etc). At least, very little when compared to how much it is inappropriately used. I say get rid of it.

---

Well I often have seen it used appropriately. Whether to kick someone who is simply AFK or disconnected too long, or for those unfortunate times you're stuck with just a genuinely nasty person who won't stop harassing other member/s of the party. Yes, I've seen it abused, I've even been on the end of wrongful kicks, but I still see it used in the intended way much more often than not.

Plus, even when vote kick isn't being actively used it is still doing a job, it is acting as a deterrent. Back when the game first came out and there was no vote kick whatsoever, you just had to deal with whatever you got in Duty Finder. This meant more often than not carrying leeches through CM or Prae on Philo runs; they wouldn't move, speak or respond in any way whatsoever. They would just stand at the entrance and you had to deal with it, either finishing the run giving them free tomes, or taking a penalty yourself for quitting. Nice.

Also not forgetting the WP & AK runs where people would tend to throw the most maliciously vile insults possible at each other for something as trivial as pulling an extra Dullahan. I saw everything from verbal attacks on peoples families and children, to people having cancer wished on them. Would you rather go back to having stuff like that? Because the fact is those toxic players still exist, they haven't gone away. But their horrible true natures are (more often than not) kept in check by the vote kick system.

I would gladly take the odd misuse in exchange for the overwhelming good it has brought to duty finding content.