Serious problems with the Duty Finder

Queuing for dungeons as a DPS will always involve longer waits than a Tank or Healer. It's simply the way of MMO's, I get that. But the DPS are the ones who are punished when the Tanks or Healers decided to be spoiled selfish brats.

When a DPS joins the Duty Finder queue, they are added to the back of the line. They have to wait their turn for an open slot just like everyone else. However, once they finally get a queue, accept and join the instance, there is nothing preventing the Tank or Healer from throwing a temper tantrum and dropping just because they didn't get the exact dungeon they wanted. Once either of them drop, the other typically sees it as a lost cause and drops as well, knowing they can get another queue just as quickly, leaving both DPS standing there thinking "WTF..."

At this point, they have two options: 1) Sit and hope that both a Tank and a Healer queue for "Run in Progress", or 2) drop as well and rejoin the queue.

The first option is rarely worth the wait, as it's most likely that once they do manage to get a Tank or Healer, the new member sees that the party is still at the very beginning with 20-30 mins off the clock already and simply drops to find a better group. This typically results in the two DPS waiting for over an hour (if they wait that long) only to have time run out and simply end up with having to take option two anyway.

The second option ejects the DPS from the dungeon outside the queue. Meaning, they have to rejoin the queue and get sent to the back of the line again. Herein lies the problem. The DPS waited their turn just like everyone else. When they finally got to the front of the line, they had their turn taken away by a spoiled selfish Tank and/or Healer. The spoiled Tank or Healer not only screwed over the DPS, but they are rewarded for doing so by getting to queue for another party. Yes, I know there is a penalty for being the first to leave the DF, but the wait time is less than half of what the DPS have to wait to get another party.

Why are the DPS getting punished for the selfishness of the Tank and Healers?

This needs to be addressed:

-There needs to be a much harsher punishment for leaving the DF, which includes the DPS when they decided to be immature snots themselves. The wait time should be the current longest wait time anyone still in the queue has been waiting. If someone has been accepting the rules and wait for an hour and a half, then the spoiled brat who threw a temper tantrum should have to wait just as long.
-The DPS should be put to the front of the line if they weren't the ones who initiated the party break if the first boss wasn't even pulled.
-The wait time for dropping a DF party should extend to all members after the first boss, not just the first one who dropped.
-Queuing for a "Run in Progress" shouldn't show the progress of the instance they drew.

If someone is willing to acknowledge the facts of playing and DPS and willing to wait their turn, they shouldn't be punished for the actions of a spoiled brat.

While I agree that such a system is unfair, I don't think the FF14 development team has the Duty Finder system "bad apple" fixes a top priority and here's why. If you think about it, this problem suddenly becomes a non-issue with more tanks (current least populous class) in circulation. They have been trying to force more tanks in circulation since well, the dawn of the reborned realm. Unfortunately, we (all the players) are quite resistant to their efforts to change our classes as they give more and more incentives and unfortunately, power to tanks.

So yeah, bottom line, be a tank (or healer).

And then all tanks/healers goes to pre-mades, gl dps

Putting more "punishment" isn't going to solve anything. Probably make it worse as it is going to turn people completely away from the game.

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Originally Posted by Poringing

While I agree that such a system is unfair, I don't think the FF14 development team has the Duty Finder system "bad apple" fixes a top priority and here's why. If you think about it, this problem suddenly becomes a non-issue with more tanks (current least populous class) in circulation. They have been trying to force more tanks in circulation since well, the dawn of the reborned realm. Unfortunately, we (all the players) are quite resistant to their efforts to change our classes as they give more and more incentives and unfortunately, power to tanks.

So yeah, bottom line, be a tank (or healer).

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I think you missed the point entirely. I started out saying that I understand that long waits as a DPS is part of playing an MMO as a DPS. I even pointed out the fact that waiting in line wasn't a problem.

The point is being punished, mechanically, for the immaturity of others, not the wait times as DPS. "Play a Tank/Healer" doesn't fix the problem. It simply pass the problem on to others.

Let's look at this from a bigger point of view.

How long people (DPS classes) wait in line to enter a dungeon, is related to how many dungeons is cleared per unit time in a particular server/ data center. Do you agree?

500 DPS queued and 1 hour later 50 dungeons are cleared (as there are only 50 angelic tanks). 400 DPS are left in line.
- will be using this as comparison later

500 DPS queued and 1 hour later 100 dungeons are cleared. 300 DPS are left in line.

Simple enough? So to reduce everyone's wait time, we just have to increase the dungeons cleared per unit time. The obvious way to do this is the alleviate the bottleneck, tanks.

So, lets say all the incentives attracted 50 nasty tanks (quit on one wipe or projected to be not speed-running fast enough or just hates humanity in general). They wreck havoc in the duty roulette, but they do get dungeons done eventually. Thus, increasing dungeons cleared per unit time. Returning to the number example I gave:

500 DPS queued, of which 30 became tanks (20 healers became tanks) leaving us at 470 DPS queued. 50 dungeons were cleared by the existing angelic tanks and 15 dungeons are cleared by the new tanks (35 dungeons failed due to "bad apples"). Leaving 340 DPS in line, of which 70 of them are somewhat angry; also 35 tanks and/ or healers who are riding the penalty. Is this better than the leaving 400 DPS in line (but a guaranteed chance of clearing a dungeon when you enter it, someday)? Of course! This means average DPS queue time has gone down, although variance in queue time has gone up. The unfortunate DPSes whose party failed will have to wait double or more <this can be reduced by your suggestion of placing them ahead of queue, somehow>. These unfortunate DPSes are yes, punished due to the action of others; but it is luck of the draw; tomorrow you may be able to one-shot whatever it is.

And there you have it, if you, a DPS became a tank, you will cut everyone's waiting time! And, if you became a tank that leaves dungeons for fun (when you enter duty finder, you have a dungeon clear rate of 10%), you will still be cutting everyone's waiting time, while worsening the community. So from Square Enix's point of view, if they manage to even convince one decent person (or 3 guys having the combined efficiency of one) to change class into tank through mounts and gil, they successfully reduced queue times for DPS. As for increasing penalties, they have to somehow reach a numerical conclusion themselves (they do have a psychologist in the staff lineup, right? right?), if this scares away new tanks or worse, dissuaded existing tanks from using the duty finder, then DPS wait time will increase.

Lets beat this dead horse to beyond death.

Increasing penalties may serve to mend player's behaviors. In theory, this can greatly improve dungeon clear rates and consequently, DPS wait times. However, determining how much penalty can often be tricky.

Lets take this to the extreme. We'll talk about rape.

If penalty for raping is 1 year, it will become a terrible town to live in. If the penalty is raised to 50 years, the number of rape cases should decline greatly. Good. But any rape victims will also probably be murdered due to the penalties being unfair (penalty being too similar to murder). So, we need to find the right number. (Too much SVU)

Back to FF14, is 30 minutes too little? Too much? Or just right? There no way we (the player) will know as Square Enix holds all the data. In fact, they have two data points to assess duty finder leave rates (the previously 15 minute lockout time).

Is Square Enix incompetant? Uncaring? That's what I thought too until the Atma quest line came out. We specifically mentioned no more FATEs. And what we got is well, more FATEs! I thought they did this just to pad game length until I realised what they made me do. Slightly past midnight, I was grinding FATEs for my Atma in Central Thanalan. There was only one person with me, a legit stranger new player. Then it made me realise, Square Enix made me level him 2x faster without telling anyone (FATEs are cleared 2x faster with 2 people compared to one). Since then, I'm convinced Square Enix is a sly, calculative bunch. Why had they not increased the penalty for duty finder leavers when they clearly did it once in an attempt to alleviate the problem? Is it because their data shows that it doesn't work? Or is it because they overlooked this? Only time will tell.

What about joining a FC?? I do dungeon runs all the time in mine as a DPS. I guess it would help if your FC is a helping one which mine is. :) :)

Increasing times still wouldn't matter. Being verbally abused by some DPS or healer because you didn't go slow or extremely fast for them isn't worth it. I'd still up and leave if it were a 24 hour lockout but I'd probably just cancel my sub. Point being, treat people how you want to be treated and it's not just tanks that leave over roulette. I have seen plenty of DPS and heals exit right away when getting lost city of amdapoor and Pharos Sirius. Everyone wants to blame tanks (and yes there are some nasty ones) but it is the community as a whole that has created these problems. I could go into the whys but since no one GAF about it I'll pass. A better solution would be a duty finder blacklist to prevent being paired with those individuals again. Eventually those people would have wait times close to or exceeding DPS waits while at the same time reducing waiting time for those who play nice and don't treat others like $#@!

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Originally Posted by ckb

A better solution would be a duty finder blacklist to prevent being paired with those individuals again. Eventually those people would have wait times close to or exceeding DPS waits while at the same time reducing waiting time for those who play nice and don't treat others like $#@!

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This is the only way I would start entering Duty Finder as a tank again (outside of parties that included friends). There just aren't enough consequences for pottymouth/rude people in this game.

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Originally Posted by Poringing

And there you have it, if you, a DPS became a tank, you will cut everyone's waiting time! And, if you became a tank that leaves dungeons for fun (when you enter duty finder, you have a dungeon clear rate of 10%), you will still be cutting everyone's waiting time, while worsening the community. So from Square Enix's point of view, if they manage to even convince one decent person (or 3 guys having the combined efficiency of one) to change class into tank through mounts and gil, they successfully reduced queue times for DPS. As for increasing penalties, they have to somehow reach a numerical conclusion themselves (they do have a psychologist in the staff lineup, right? right?), if this scares away new tanks or worse, dissuaded existing tanks from using the duty finder, then DPS wait time will increase.

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People goes into a game, wanting to play what they love: DPS.

Comes to realize in order to get faster queue and to help the community, has to jump to TANK.

Don't like playing TANK. Quit the game as if going back to DPS, will still encounters unbearable issues.

We lost not only a DPS, but a subscription.

I am one of those, that felt forced into that role. Mind you, I don't hate Tanking, even if I'm not one of the best. Still we get the job done. Luckily for me, other FC mates did the same, so that I can ENJOY what the game offers to me as fun: DPS. (can't wait for NINJAAAAAA!)

Point of it all, perhaps SE could do a lockout feature that until 2/3 of a trial/dungeon is complete, everyone is blocked from leaving.

It won't stop the selfish ones, which a modem is only a plug away.. sigh..

So OP, I feel you, but playing with others, like in real life situations, you will encounter good and bad seeds.

*but please roll a tank, we (SE) need you! ^^

CKB and ASTRALOS pointed out some good stuff..

I main a DPS but I went into Leviathan ex as a healer yesterday.
First time - DPS can't kill the spumes fast enough, we wipe twice and someone leaves, so I leave too.
Second time - tank has no idea what he's doing, doesn't stun the wavetooth, we wipe, someone leaves, I leave too.

So no, if you don't want people quitting on you, don't come into a DF party being incompetent? No one is obliged to wipe over and over with you.
Though to be honest this is the quality of DF nowdays so I just stopped queing for it period. Now you have 1 less healer queing for it. I think a lot of people consider DF somekind of "free for all practice zone" so if you want a real party just start a PF on your server.

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There needs to be a much harsher punishment for leaving the DF, which includes the DPS when they decided to be immature snots themselves. The wait time should be the current longest wait time anyone still in the queue has been waiting. If someone has been accepting the rules and wait for an hour and a half, then the spoiled brat who threw a temper tantrum should have to wait just as long.

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Leaving DF quietly without "throwing a temper tantrum" because the party obviously cannot clear something is not immature or deserves harsh punishment. If you were to introduce something like that into the game, the DF ques time would double because people wouldn't even bother queuing for something like that. If someone is cursing and being rude, just report them and move on.

DPS whining about queue times....

This is silly!!
Look, I have 8 relic weapons, I have a 47.75 BLM (my last job). Im not bragging.... this DPS queue wait is ridiculous.

Ive leveled my BLM from 34-48 this week.... never having a queue of more than 24 mins. The DPS queue has gone down!!!! It used to be like 45 minutes back in January when i was still main classing as a Bard.

More so, there are PLENTY of things to do in FFXIV while you wait for queues. Im sorry if you are one of those people that queues a dungeon, turns to the tv and watches netflix until the dungeon pops. Thats your perogative.

Lets see: while leveling my BLM i was doing the following:

Amal'ja quests... I would accept all 6 Dailies, and my dungeon would usually pop just as i was finishing all of them, or mid way through

Levequests in Coerthas.... I would take all 6 grand company quests, and the 4 from the levequest.... Id get maybe 4-5 done by the time the dungeon popped.

Sightseeing.....

Hunting Log (thank god, i finished all of them now)... usually get 4 or 5 logged by the time it popped

Crafting (just enough to restock my retainers)

If you want to go from dungeon to dungeon, level a tank or healer and take advantage of insta-queues. If not, well do other things. My last 2 jobs to level were arcanist and BLM, and from bringing them from 15-50 I have gotten my battle drake. Be productive, stop whining.

There are answers, deal with it.

And more specifically, for the tanks/healers to drop in the dungeon. YOU ARE PROBABLY DOING SOMETHING WRONG!! If you wipe 3 times on the doom mechanic in sunken temple, i dont blame the tank for leaving. If you keep killing the mobs in that one fate where all 5 need to die together, well thats a dps situation. This game is saturated with HORRIBLE players, that blatantly IGNORE the party chat..... if some one is asking you to do something, and is saying please in the the party chat, and you blatantly ignore them, well sorry.... im out of here. Deal with it. I aint waiting for a response, I am looking for action. If you suck, I'll probably leave! Dont whine to SE so you can cut the leader and get back into a dungeon and ruin everyone elses day there too

Beating a dead horse here. DPS queue isn't that long anymore. Takes me about 5 mins on a melee job 10 on a ranged

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

Beating a dead horse here. DPS queue isn't that long anymore. Takes me about 5 mins on a melee job 10 on a ranged

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it's only long for content nobody wants to DF (like coil turn 5)

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Originally Posted by Nukocafe

it's only long for content nobody wants to DF (like coil turn 5)

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I don't know why people don't want to use PF for content no one does in DF. It takes no time to make one even as a DPS as long as it's a greed party

This is why the bonuses ideas need to be reworked, and they just need to make join in progress mandatory. If you join a dungeon and only have to fight final boss, then you should get gil or xp(if not 50) that is roughly equal to the amount of xp possible from dungeon based on objectives cleared probably.

Join in progress should not be optional.

And we still need more tanks/healers, but it wouldn't hurt for people to just be nicer to those roles when they are beginners or mess up.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

I don't know why people don't want to use PF for content no one does in DF. It takes no time to make one even as a DPS as long as it's a greed party

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Was wondering the same thing. There are always tons of parties recruiting where I am, they are always high level, with comments about knowing the fight. Seems like for people who know how to do the fights this is the way to go. Why don't people use this more? Or make their own party where they can set the restrictions on joining it. I know if I was looking for people who knew what they were doing that is what I would do. I guess that's why I stick to the DF, because I have no idea what I'm doing. (getting better though). Trying to juggle a new born and play a 90 minute dungeon just doesn't meld so well. Took up fishing for a bit.

First, what is wrong with this site or is it my computer: I had to log in at least six times just to post this, so sorry if a double-post occurs. Basic arithmetic will tell you, if the parties had 3 DPS's queue times would be shorter. And it's awesome when you queue up, it tells you it'll be six minutes and 28 minutes later you have to exit halfway through a five minute quest cut scene because your turn came up.

Umm.... Why should Join In Progress be mandatory. Thats absolutely ridiculous!!

Makes alot of sense right there. Dont start from the beginning of the dungeon.... you will begin wherever the last person rage quitted at..... its a tainted party to begin with.

What if I actually ENJOY doing the dungeon from the beginning? Like the asthetics, who knows.....

What if I am leveling a low level character and know that one Stone Vigil run should give me a half a level XP, and that half a level XP will ding 45 for me so I can go do my gear quests....

Absolutely OPPOSED to Joining in progress being MANDATORY.

I think special rewards should be allotted for those that do. How bout a mount reward....or a barding award for being the "Adventurer in Need" or a title like "Dungeon Savior" after completing 250 "join In Progress"........ incentive to join in progress..... YES..... mandatory? LOL no thanks.

And I do prefer to join in progress alot, so dont think I am against it. Im just saying, I should have to suffer someone else's rage for being the person that plops into a reject group. Why is that party incomplete to begin with? The tank was vocally abusive? The healer didnt know the difference between esuna/cure? The Bard is singing army paeon for who knows what reason? The dragoon is jump pulling all the trash? The BLM is using only blizzard because it saves his MP? The summoner is using only Titan? You tell me why i should be forced to queue into that nonsense and have to save their day and waste my time?

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Originally Posted by Coth_X

...and they just need to make join in progress mandatory....

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This is not an appropriate solution,
1. GC hunting logs require to kill mobs at the beginning of dungeons
2. for consistency, main story dungeon will be same, so when some people very concern first timers must watch CS, so...
3. same as 2, first timers for any dungon would skip the first part.

I think you may suggest auto member reinforcement but not forcc ppl to join in progress.
A lot of join in progress are dead game, have you tried join a content with only one AFK player inside, quit and then rejoin to that content again?
Make join in progress mandatory will make ppl keep joining to that dead content. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

This is not an appropriate solution,
1. GC hunting logs require to kill mobs at the beginning of dungeons
2. for consistency, main story dungeon will be same, so when some people very concern first timers must watch CS, so...
3. same as 2, first timers for any dungon would skip the first part.

I think you may suggest auto member reinforcement but not forcc ppl to join in progress.
A lot of join in progress are dead game, have you tried join a content with only one AFK player inside, quit and then rejoin to that content again?
Make join in progress mandatory will make ppl keep joining to that dead content. ^^;

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It is appropriate. Those monsters need to be taken out of the dungeon anyways, I know of at least one person on my server that had to run the dungeon twice because his first run skipped mobs.

It wouldn't be hard for them to check if it was your first clear and to specifically put you in a full run.

As it is right now though, 90% of parties where someone leaves(for ANY reason) pretty much have to leave and re queue. Which really sucks for dps classes. Also, I agree that if they did 5 mans, with a 3rd dps slot that would help dps alot.

I don't know how many mmo's do it, though I know wow does it, but the current way its working is not working.

Well, request Dev to make 3 or 7 ppl parties instead of 4 or 8 ppl for Party finders
and u will have Duty finders working perfectly well.

and elite players will have the randomness they wan with a 8th unknown player.