Summoner - Acc vs Det/Crit

So, i got to thinking the other day, since garuda only does ~25% of my dps on most fights, it would probably be a dps increase if i went a point or two below garudas accuracy cap in order to lose a tiny portion of her dps and increase my own.

with that in mind, how far below her accuracy cap could we go before we start loosing dps if we were to swap it out for either crit or det.

i'de also like to collect some miss %'s for various accuracies in turn 8 and turn 9 for garuda. at the moment, i have accuracy for 489 (2 below cap) for turn 9 that was done over ~2000 hits, and 487 (4 below cap) over ~3000 hits.


Accuracy - hit %
1 below cap - ?????
2 below cap - 99.65% hit rate
3 below cap - ?????
4 below cap - 99.22% hit rate
5 below cap - ?????


Current findings:
using Puro Strider's blm calculator (I know, not summoner but its still magic damage) of 13.8 crit = 1% crit rate, for the currently measured hit rates, dropping below accuracy cap from exactly on the cap and replacing with crit rate is a very minor dps loss, however, for every point above the cap you can go 2 points below the cap in order to receive a dps increase overall.
This may lead to altering BiS lists that are over acc cap to under cap for minor dps increases, but anything that sits directly on the acc cap seems to be the best bet for the time being.

For those that make BiS lists based upon stat weightings:
each point of accuracy below cap should have a value of -0.255

This is something I've been curious about for a while. Does a critical affect DoTs?

Like, if I get a criticial on Bio, will its ticks deal more damage?

I can report that my Egi at 481 accuracy in T8 had us both at about 99.70 accuracy

Also yes DoTs can crit. That's one reason why crit's a powerful stat

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Originally Posted by Darske

This is something I've been curious about for a while. Does a critical affect DoTs?

Like, if I get a criticial on Bio, will its ticks deal more damage?

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each tick of a dot has a chance to crit, so while it is possible to have all ticks crit, its more likely that the dots will crit once or twice.

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

I can report that my Egi at 481 accuracy in T8 had us both at about 99.70 accuracy

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any chance you could look at just the hit/miss % on wind blade only so it doesn't skew the results?
also, please let me know how many hits this is based on, anything less than 500 is probably going to be to low to get accurate readings.

I don't have those records anymore sadly. When I do T8 tonight or tomorrow night I'll get back to you with actual results

I don't think you can even drop to something like 488 or 489 with 110 options and actually gain something important. Only the HA earrings, evenstar bracelet and evenstar body have det/crit itemization. So any piece you remove to lower accuracy will just be adding spell speed or also swapping from crit/det to the other.

The only accuracy piece I could imagine removing is the HA ring since it's 19 acc and 13SS, but there's no other 110 to wear anyway

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Originally Posted by Madoka

I don't think you can even drop to something like 488 or 489 with 110 options and actually gain something important. Only the HA earrings, evenstar bracelet and evenstar body have det/crit itemization. So any piece you remove to lower accuracy will just be adding spell speed or also swapping from crit/det to the other.

The only accuracy piece I could imagine removing is the HA ring since it's 19 acc and 13SS, but there's no other 110 to wear anyway

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i realized that after i started doing all of this, but its also relevant for later patchs of gear sets, so i'll keep working on it regardless

97% for Wind blades at 483 accuracy (I got the Soldiery legs inbetween posts)

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

97% for Wind blades at 483 accuracy (I got the Soldiery legs inbetween posts)

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97.00%?
sorry i really need to get more specific for this since the miss % doesn't change a whole lot per point

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Originally Posted by Madoka

I don't think you can even drop to something like 488 or 489 with 110 options and actually gain something important. Only the HA earrings, evenstar bracelet and evenstar body have det/crit itemization. So any piece you remove to lower accuracy will just be adding spell speed or also swapping from crit/det to the other.

The only accuracy piece I could imagine removing is the HA ring since it's 19 acc and 13SS, but there's no other 110 to wear anyway

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Exactly. With the current stats weights that are approximated and BiS list(s) built around them (with acc varying between 496-503), none of them will ever go below the acc cap unless you specifically want to and it's not going to be by 1-2 either. So while extra acc is pretty useless for us, it's not really something we can do much about at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Exactly. With the current stats weights that are approximated and BiS list(s) built around them (with acc varying between 496-503), none of them will ever go below the acc cap unless you specifically want to and it's not going to be by 1-2 either. So while extra acc is pretty useless for us, it's not really something we can do much about at the moment.

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who ever said this was restricted to going only 1-2 below cap? we can drop down to 470 before we start loosing acc on ourselves.

On ourselves, yes but not for Garuda. Math it out yourself if you want to but it's been proven that Pet Acc cap > dropping acc for secondary stats.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

On ourselves, yes but not for Garuda. Math it out yourself if you want to but it's been proven that Pet Acc cap > dropping acc for secondary stats.

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theres not much info available to math it out like you said, thats what im trying to do, and most theory crafting for summoners has been done under the pretext of pet damage being 1/3 of the summoner dps, not 1/4 like what can be done by a skilled summoner, which in this particular field does change things drastically.

Also if you read on, i had already acknowledged that dropped Acc for secondary stats on a 1:1 ratio wont work, but since gear will almost never allow being exactly on acc cap with ideal stats, it does open up the possibility of dropping the accuracy over the cap as well as going under the cap.

There's plenty of information readily available to math out nearly everything damage wise:

-Garuda is ~25% of the summoner's total damage.
-Summoner's DPS with BiS set will average between 400-435 depending on the encounter.
-1% ACC with Garuda included is around 4.9.

So by taking this into consideration, having 1% miss chance is going to drop us at about 396-430 DPS. To get back that DPS with the current stats weight, using Crit since it's our best stats, we'd need around 40,5 crit (probably even more since the weights are calculated with accuracy being capped to begin with) for the 5 acc you're missing. And that's just to break even, not getting any damage increase.

So no, going under the accuracy capped is never a good thing to try to get more damage.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

There's plenty of information readily available to math out nearly everything damage wise:

-Garuda is ~25% of the summoner's total damage.
-Summoner's DPS with BiS set will average between 400-435 depending on the encounter.
-1% ACC with Garuda included is around 4.9.

So by taking this into consideration, having 1% miss chance is going to drop us at about 396-430 DPS. To get back that DPS with the current stats weight, using Crit since it's our best stats, we'd need around 40,5 crit (probably even more since the weights are calculated with accuracy being capped to begin with) for the 5 acc you're missing. And that's just to break even, not getting any damage increase.

So no, going under the accuracy capped is never a good thing to try to get more damage.

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so you wouldnt drop 1 point below acc cap if it meant getting 18 more crit? stop saying its completely useless and look at what i've said thus far.

So by having 1% miss on Garuda
100 DPS would be 99 DPS.

As long as the Summoners + Pets gain is higher than 1% it's win.

Providing Contagion can't miss as well as Enkindle.

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Originally Posted by Zamii

so you wouldnt drop 1 point below acc cap if it meant getting 18 more crit? stop saying its completely useless and look at what i've said thus far.

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You see, that's the thing. Theoretically, that would be a decent trade-off but with how itemization is done and with current stats weight, it is theoretically impossible to just dip 1 accuracy below for 18 more crit than the current BiS.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

So by having 1% miss on Garuda
100 DPS would be 99 DPS.

As long as the Summoners + Pets gain is higher than 1% it's win.

Providing Contagion can't miss as well as Enkindle.

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contagion as far as i know cant miss, enkindle can, but since its only damage and not utility, 1% miss rate @ 100 dps with enkindle will still average out to be 99 dps

also, since garuda is only 1/4 our overall dps, our dps only needs to increase by 0.33% to breakeven, not 1%

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Originally Posted by Dwill

You see, that's the thing. Theoretically, that would be a decent trade-off but with how itemization is done and with current stats weight, it is theoretically impossible to just dip 1 accuracy below for 18 more crit than the current BiS.

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you said it right there, current BiS, as i noted in an earlier post, with the current gear this wont affect anything, but what im working out isnt restricted to just this gear set, it could be applied to ilvl 200 gear for all it matters, the end result should still be the same.

For later in the future it might work, I'll give you that. For the current tier however, it will not due how itemization is done.

added a stat weighting to the findings, it surprised me when i saw it in comparison to the weighting for determination, had to double check to make sure it was actually correct lol.

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For those that make BiS lists based upon stat weightings:
each point of accuracy below cap should have a value of -0.255

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So if this is the stat weighting for Accuracy, then is this how it would work with Garuda?

Accuracy -0.255/4 = 0.06375 (Relative to Damage % Compared to Master)
Add in the extra Damage Stats - 0.217 Crit, 0.2 DET / 4 (Averaged out at 0.052 per stat)
So totalled out as 0.01175 in a 1:1 Ratio to Accuracy (Because while Pets average is reduced by accuracy, it is increased by Damage stat) - much more complex considering damage stats are indirectly effected by accuracy, but close enough for comparison

So as long as the Summoner is at 100% accuracy, each point of Crit/DET has a stat weighting of 17 compared to Accuracy for Summoner Pet? (0.208/0.01175)

Please critique.

Edited: Proposed BiS - http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/MULX
Can swap out either, Evenstar Boots and Hat for High Allagan Boots and Hat

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

snip

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You can't divide the -0.255 by 4 because that value is specific to Garuda missing since she is the one needing to be at 491, not the summoner himself. I'd warrant that the acc weight for being under cap would be much higher if it was being calculated at going under 471.

So to break even at 471, if the value of -0,255 is good, you'd need 5.1 worth of value from stats weight with CRT being 0,2 and Det being 0,163 and S.Speed being a whooping 0.022 to 0.081 depending on the encounter's time (all of the value being calculated at the summoner being accuracy capped).

continuing in the next post...

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

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Current BiS is http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/MQDG with 533 CRT, 308 DET and 405 S.peed
Your proposed list is http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/MULX with 542 CRT, 282 DET and 435 S.Speed.

The difference of stats in term of weights is:

CRT = +1.8
DET = -4.238
S.Speed= +2.43

So in the end, you're not even breaking even with acc cap weights. With acc being under the cap values being adjusted, you'd be losing damage.

So this comes back to my previous point earlier in the thread that dropping below acc is just not worth it.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

So to break even at 471, if the value of -0,255 is good, you'd need 5.1 worth of value from stats weight with CRT being 0,2 and Det being 0,163 and S.Speed being a whooping 0.022 to 0.081 depending on the encounter's time (all of the value being calculated at the summoner being accuracy capped).

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Where did you get a weight of DET being less than CRIT for Summoner?

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Originally Posted by ticdup

Where did you get a weight of DET being less than CRIT for Summoner?

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http://sim.ffxivguild.net/

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Originally Posted by Dwill

http://sim.ffxivguild.net/

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Just tried the SMN sim, here's the rotation it used for 5 mins sim

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raging-strikes rouse spur bio miasma bio-ii swiftcast shadow-flare fester ruin ruin ruin ruin bio fester ruin ruin miasma ruin fester aetherflow bio-ii shadow-flare bio ruin fester ruin ruin ruin ruin fester ruin ruin rouse ruin ruin miasma swiftcast shadow-flare fester ruin bio ruin bio-ii ruin ruin ruin ruin fester raging-strikes bio-ii ruin rouse bio ruin ruin swiftcast shadow-flare ruin ruin ruin ruin ruin ruin ruin ruin aetherflow miasma fester bio ruin bio-ii shadow-flare fester ruin ruin ruin bio miasma fester ruin ruin rouse spur ruin ruin bio miasma bio-ii aetherflow bio swiftcast shadow-flare fester ruin ruin miasma ruin fester ruin ruin bio

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and for garuda

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wind-blade aerial-blast wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade contagion wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade contagion wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade contagion wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade wind-blade

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Still quite far from being reliable compared to T0rin's (outdated) sim

Dwill was correct, the acc weighting was factoring garuda-egi going under cap and the summoner being over cap, if the summoner was going under cap also it would be much much higher.

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Originally Posted by Infina

Just tried the SMN sim, here's the rotation it used for 5 mins sim



and for garuda



Still quite far from being reliable compared to T0rin's (outdated) sim

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T0rin's was much unreliable especially due to the S.Speed bug it had. While there is more optimization required, this is far more accurate than T0rin's and can actually be used as a guideline.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

T0rin's was much unreliable especially due to the S.Speed bug it had. While there is more optimization required, this is far more accurate than T0rin's and can actualyl be used as a guideline.

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What spell speed bug? I haven't really been following discussions about it since T0rin disappeared.

Also, this sim isn't keeping GCD rolling, which makes skill speed rather useless.

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Originally Posted by Infina

What spell speed bug? I haven't really been following discussions about it since T0rin disappeared.

Also, this sim isn't keeping GCD rolling, which makes skill speed rather useless.

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http://logicfix.net/sim/?wd=77&int=5...0&food=buttons = 123806 damage
http://logicfix.net/sim/?wd=77&int=5...0&food=buttons = 124164 damage

Not sure I follow you though about the GCD not rolling.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

You can't divide the -0.255 by 4 because that value is specific to Garuda missing since she is the one needing to be at 491, not the summoner himself. I'd warrant that the acc weight for being under cap would be much higher if it was being calculated at going under 471.

So to break even at 471, if the value of -0,255 is good, you'd need 5.1 worth of value from stats weight with CRT being 0,2 and Det being 0,163 and S.Speed being a whooping 0.022 to 0.081 depending on the encounter's time (all of the value being calculated at the summoner being accuracy capped).

continuing in the next post...

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Oh I see. I wasn't sure if that was the stat weight of Acc, for just Garuda, or in general. It does make sense, since it looks like Acc is weighted higher than the Primary stats.
-5 Acc below cap = 1%
6.5 Main stat = 1% extra damage

Thanks for catching about dividing Garuda's stat weight by 4. Even though she may do a 1/4 of overall SMN damage, it's 1/3 of SMN's actual damage.

I didn't include food with the gear set I posted.

BiS - 502 Acc - 523 Crit - 294 Det - 405 S.Speed
Me - 471 Acc - 542 Crit - 282 Det - 435 S.Speed

So for Garuda -4% Accuracy (96% DPS) + 1.2% for S.Speed + 0.6% from Crit (- 0.3% from DET) - so a 2.2% Loss for Garuda (97.8 DPS)

Summoner +4.1 weight - 0.6% Increase (relative to Garuda 1.8% - so overall it's a 0.4% loss)

Still pretty interesting

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

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Pets are not affected by food buff so it didn't matter that you forgot it. And with all the information we gathered thus far, she's more 1/4 than 1/3 of our damage.

Their also is a bug where Garuda (or any pet for that matter) is unaffected by S.Speed so we can't apply this to her (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ed-Pet-Actions).

So acc caped still is the most important then CRT > DET > S.SPEED.

As far as I'm aware, one of the upcoming patches will make pet account caps the same as the smn. I think it may be 2.3, but I'm not 100% on that info.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

http://logicfix.net/sim/?wd=77&int=5...0&food=buttons = 123806 damage
http://logicfix.net/sim/?wd=77&int=5...0&food=buttons = 124164 damage

Not sure I follow you though about the GCD not rolling.

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The sim currently use all off-GCDs when GCD is not on cd, like fester after bio2.

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Originally Posted by Infina

The sim currently use all off-GCDs when GCD is not on cd, like fester after bio2.

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Weaving off-gcd abilities is on the issues list that are to solve for the sim. I don't think though that it will be a significant enough of a change though to warrant more S.Speed, even after they fix the pet's issue with S.Speed.

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Originally Posted by RowanLauron

As far as I'm aware, one of the upcoming patches will make pet account caps the same as the smn. I think it may be 2.3, but I'm not 100% on that info.

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I sure hope so.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Pets are not affected by food buff so it didn't matter that you forgot it. And with all the information we gathered thus far, she's more 1/4 than 1/3 of our damage.

Their also is a bug where Garuda (or any pet for that matter) is unaffected by S.Speed so we can't apply this to her (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ed-Pet-Actions).

So acc caped still is the most important then CRT > DET > S.SPEED.

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He he. Yeah I know food doesn't effect pets. You were just comparing the BiS build (with food) to the one I posted without food that's all.

I saw testing that showed the speed buff is still active for pets, it just doesn't show in the tool tips like it used to. I really hope that gets fixed.

I agree acc is key after discussing it.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

He he. Yeah I know food doesn't effect pets. You were just comparing the BiS build (with food) to the one I posted without food that's all.

I saw testing that showed the speed buff is still active for pets, it just doesn't show in the tool tips like it used to. I really hope that gets fixed.

I agree acc is key after discussing it.

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Oh my apologies on the food stuff.

Do you have a source for that testing on S.Speed ? I really want to believe it does.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Pets are not affected by food buff so it didn't matter that you forgot it. And with all the information we gathered thus far, she's more 1/4 than 1/3 of our damage.

Their also is a bug where Garuda (or any pet for that matter) is unaffected by S.Speed so we can't apply this to her (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ed-Pet-Actions).

So acc caped still is the most important then CRT > DET > S.SPEED.

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i remember seeing somewhere that SS did affect pets, but just the tooltip didnt update. havent tested myself to see if its true though.

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Originally Posted by RowanLauron

As far as I'm aware, one of the upcoming patches will make pet account caps the same as the smn. I think it may be 2.3, but I'm not 100% on that info.

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i'll sure be happy if they do, but at the same time this thread will become a giant slap in the face for all the theory crafting lol

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Originally Posted by Zamii

i remember seeing somewhere that SS did affect pets, but just the tooltip didnt update. havent tested myself to see if its true though.



i'll sure be happy if they do, but at the same time this thread will become a giant slap in the face for all the theory crafting lol

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I believe Spellspeed affects Garuda, where skillspeed affects ifrit.

Not positive on that