Can s/e actually make a "dungeon"?

I know the game calls these mindless encounters "dungeons" but alas.. none of them really are... I would really like to see the "dungeons" and coil for that matter.. go to a more RPG type dungeon... what do I mean? >>>

I would love to see an actual rng based dungeon.. to where different mobs are in different places.. where there are real booby traps that can kill you randomly placed.. different light patterns of light and dark.. hallways and corridors.. to where every time you enter its a new dungeon. bosses can stay relatively how they are I suppose.. but random mechanics and encounters are what makes a dungeon.. not "there is only one path to take". with all this technology you would think that they could do something that was a lot better. a 1-2 hour dungeon that was filled with mystery every time you entered..

If we had a 1~2 hour dungeon, people would insta quit when they got it in the roulette. That being said I want a 1~2 hour dungeon

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

If we had a 1~2 hour dungeon, people would insta quit when they got it in the roulette. That being said I want a 1~2 hour dungeon

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ANd people dont instant quit already?

I do like that idea a lot actually. Sounds very exciting and dangerous. The problem would be getting people to stay for the whole instance. Maybe if the reward was worth the time spent people would be interested in a dungeon like you mentioned.

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Originally Posted by omfgwtf

[FONT=Georgia]snip .

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Several dungeons have alternate paths, or random mechanics to deal with, Tam-Tara deepcroft, and Dhezmal Darkhold(sp? on both) come to my mind first, then you got jack in the box dragons in stone vigil, as well as the hammers in halltial hard mode... A lot of what your asking for is already there. To me it's the fact that when I go into dungeon,except the irst few, i'm zoomed all the way out so that my camera isn't constantly glitching, and I can see all of the battlefield that I have to watch. zooming out for every boss fights/regular walking through the dungeon destroys the feel of the dungeon to me

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

... random mechanics ...

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Yes, the mechanics are there but the random is not. Those mechanics you mentioned always occur in exactly the same place. Triggered by exactly the same thing; after you play the dungeon once you know what to expect and when to expect it.
Randomness of a dungeon is the true nature of this request.

Nyzul Isle?

1-2 hours for a good group would be way too long. Random is never random in video game maps, usually the system has a few maps and is random between them. Doing true random would likely result in many many bugs from terrain glitches etc. So the problem is that people learn the maps that do exist, and then either it becomes exactly as it is now, or they quit and reform the party over and over till they get the easiest map. No good comes from "random". More complex encounters would be good but the whole random thing needs to be dropped.

We need dungeons with more gimmicks and puzzles so it doesn't just feel like a linear run of killing trash mobs then bosses in between.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

We need dungeons with more gimmicks and puzzles so it doesn't just feel like a linear run of killing trash mobs then bosses in between.

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Like, say, a dungeon where you actually have to provide items from your inventory (not key items) in order to open certain doorways/pathways. For instance, providing i70 sword and shield to open "Armory Room," where, if you defeat the mobs/boss in said area, you'd get a chance at some rare item/weapon or other. I mean, if you're going to provide something like i70, at least make the reward worthwhile, right?

actually they have been doing ever changing random dungeons in games since back on old floppy disc pc games... it could actually take the place of all other dungeons.. you go in at your ilv.. say 10-15, 20-25 etc etc, and ya the elements where you need lets say torches or keys made by blacksmiths or theif tools to disarm traps.. you could have the same bosses on each tier but make the dungeon and the progression to them a lot more envolved and make the rewards for it a lot better than the junk in current ones. plus random spawn mobs traps makes for something fun..

if you make it the only way to get certain items.. top tier items.. no one will drop out.. put a daily lock on the run.. if you hit leave you get locked out for the whole day etc.. and if you force d/c you have 10 mins to come back or penalty hits you still ^^.. then no one will leave because they are too weak and shouldn't be playing an rpg game anyway lol

They got the maps, they could have dungeons where the objective isn't just tank as many as possible. Maybe different rewards for it and more of a rpg where your party has to do things to advance. Idk if I'd have enough time for that though

Here I was thinking the OP wanted actual prisons or something for roleplaying o_O

A procedurally-generated rogue-like dungeon (like PSO/PSO2) is a cool idea. It's quite a task artistically to build enough tiles to make a convincing "randomized" dungeon though.

Now that I Think about it, FFXI had a kind of rogue-like called Salvage. Wasn't procedural but it was an interesting dungeon crawl with bosses

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Originally Posted by omfgwtf

Can s/e actually make a "dungeon"? ...

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I have seen a similar post on JP forum, therefore I think s/e would consider this idea.

This kind of puzzle dungeon sounds great in theory and I personally would enjoy it, but it should be tuned as more of a solo challenge. I would not at all be ok with something that requires that much time being part of a roulette type thing or something to have to queue for and do with other people.

Sometimes you get stuck with pretty awful players, to spend 20-30 minutes in queue and then to have to spend 1-2 hours with someone that gets on your nerves would just be...well I can see it being quite bad.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Nyzul Isle?

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Haha, yes! Nyzul Isle was so random it was a lot of fun. Random objectives, random enemies and random boss floors. Though very frustrating when you got those damn lamp order floors >:c

I think adding something like Nyzul in this game would be awesome! :)

@Jeykama Salvage was boring for me for some reason. :(

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Originally Posted by omfgwtf

I know the game calls these mindless encounters "dungeons" but alas.. none of them really are... I would really like to see the "dungeons" and coil for that matter.. go to a more RPG type dungeon... what do I mean? >>>

I would love to see an actual rng based dungeon.. to where different mobs are in different places.. where there are real booby traps that can kill you randomly placed.. different light patterns of light and dark.. hallways and corridors.. to where every time you enter its a new dungeon. bosses can stay relatively how they are I suppose.. but random mechanics and encounters are what makes a dungeon.. not "there is only one path to take". with all this technology you would think that they could do something that was a lot better. a 1-2 hour dungeon that was filled with mystery every time you entered..

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Sounds like this would be a rogue-like experience? I love the idea of that, but wouldn't it be really hard to implement that in an MMO? I don't have any MMO experience outside this game, so I'm not sure.

Kill all trash mobs, leave no one alive, drops something else than 'Tiny Key'

Use said item to unlock special rooms where you are locked until you kill all mobs inside - or discover a treasure, but trapped with puzzle like Temple of Qarn to solve. (broken parchment that needs to be placed in order and read to open it)

- dark room, you must lit all candles in a pentagram fashion, but wind sprites are having fun messing with you, you need to 'comfort' them.. (if pentagram is lit in reversed order.. o.O )

- plates that needs to be move into proper position, else you open the barrier and need to fight the beast..

Using specific skills as well..

- Bard's Song that needs to be done in order, or Monk that uses Mantra (channeling) to siphon all water in the room and gain access to another floor..

Lots of possibilities in here.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

If we had a 1~2 hour dungeon, people would insta quit when they got it in the roulette. That being said I want a 1~2 hour dungeon

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1. Don't include it in a roulette
2. Make the reward worth the time

Problem solved.

play dungeons and dragons.

This "dungeon" you're talking about does not exist in MMOs

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

If we had a 1~2 hour dungeon, people would insta quit when they got it in the roulette. That being said I want a 1~2 hour dungeon

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If a dungeon is engaging, challenging and fun I wouldn't notice I had been in there for 2hrs until after its over. I guess the hard part is making it like that.

Welcome to the Tomb of Horrors, where the Lich Acererak awaits...

....muahahahahahahaaaaaa...!

BAsically you want dungeons the old Dungeons and Dragons Online style... that was my first MMO and I remember so well all the quest chains, like Delera and the epic dungeons filled with traps, that could only be disarmed by rogues, limited number of mana, that could be only regained in shrines, that disappeared after usage, so you had to carefully plan and go wisely. I remember the great designs of likes of Crucible, that had jump puzzles, swim puzzles, and lots of any other puzzles, along with epic maze. Speaking not, that some puzzles were doable only if you had enough skills in trap detection...

Not a single game so far came even close to the quality of DDO dungeons. And, as much as I love the design and work S/E put into things like Amadpor City or Sastasha, they lack puzzles. I'd love stuff being more difficult and require more thinking instead of roflstomp. And yes, the i110/i100 items should be scaled down in most of lev 50 stuff.

i would just be happy to see a few twists and turns, maybe a real dead end here or there. and trap.. real traps that are deadly =D. for the most part every dungeon is just a straight shot to the boss with no real danger. ive found the most dangerous part of every dungeon is always the other players xD

at the same time tho i think full randomly generated dungeons are a bad idea, games with this design tend to get bland really fast and still end up looking mostly the same anyways

2 hours is far too long for a 4man dungeon. Nothing outside of raids should be that long, ever. 20-30 minutes is even pushing it, but ok.

That aside, I do agree that the sequential nature of dungeons makes them boring and prone to "speed runs" and other content that excludes players of certain classes or experience. More randomness, and true, actual "randomness", would combat those issues. You wouldn't always be able to speed run because you never know what you are going to get. I think it might be more work for the devs than just drawing a map from point A to point D and dropping a couple flans, soulflayers and puks along the way, but it would make XIV stand out from the rest.

It does sound kind of fun, but I'm not sure if taking the game into a roguelike style of direction is the way to go.

..That said, it does sound kinda fun.

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Originally Posted by Algin

BAsically you want dungeons the old Dungeons and Dragons Online style... that was my first MMO and I remember so well all the quest chains, like Delera and the epic dungeons filled with traps, that could only be disarmed by rogues, limited number of mana, that could be only regained in shrines, that disappeared after usage, so you had to carefully plan and go wisely. I remember the great designs of likes of Crucible, that had jump puzzles, swim puzzles, and lots of any other puzzles, along with epic maze. Speaking not, that some puzzles were doable only if you had enough skills in trap detection...

Not a single game so far came even close to the quality of DDO dungeons. And, as much as I love the design and work S/E put into things like Amadpor City or Sastasha, they lack puzzles. I'd love stuff being more difficult and require more thinking instead of roflstomp. And yes, the i110/i100 items should be scaled down in most of lev 50 stuff.

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It's too bad that game was ruined in recent years. At least there are still good memories I guess.

Diablo 3 anyone?

If Square were to make a dungeon like this, there would have to be a few rules;

1. The dungeon would have to have sections that save your state. Each section would take 30 minutes to complete. If you leave in the third section, next time you queue up for the dungeon you start at that section. This is so that people can complete the dungeon on their own time. This may not be necessary for pre mades, but for PUGs, 2 hours is too long to finish in one sitting.

2. The dungeon would not appear on roulettes. This dungeon would have to be picked intentionally.

3. The dungeon would also not be needed for farming. Perhaps you gain a currency for each section, and you trade those currencies for cosmetics, such as clothing, minions, mounts, furniture, etc... Perhaps add different effects to your weapons/armor.

The dungeon, basically, needs to be separated from the speedy grind aspect of this game. The dungeon would have to be made as relaxing, fun and challenging as possible without making it a requirement for any kind of end game power grinding for better loot.

I don't think the proposed implementation is the way to go as crafted dungeon experiences will always be better than randomly generated stuff and puzzles in MMO's can be tricky things as some people will consider them too hard while others think they are too easy and once someone posts the solutions to the puzzles online and people start using those instead of solving them, they become an exercise in tediousness. Also longer dungeons does not necessarily mean they are better or more immersive, it just means that they are longer and it could easily alienate a percentage of the playerbase as not everyone has the time to do a two hour dungeon.

However, I do think it would be nice if they did add in some dungeons with some of these elements and even some level of randomness in them.

Elements that I think could help with this that are quite feasible:

- More traps in dungeons.
The sand burst traps in Cutter's Cry and the crystals in Darkhold were nice elements that added a bit more challenge and life to the dungeons. They could even take this up a notch with more difficult and interactive traps. For example there is a room that has gas vents on the walls. Every so often one of the gas vents begins to build pressure and displays it with a visual effect (like a small sputtering particle fx) and maybe even an on screen text prompt that says something like "a gas vent builds pressure". The party has say 3-5 seconds from when this starts to hit the vent with an attack to release the pressure or else the vent erupts and does a large nasty AoE radiating out from the vent.

- Randomized branching paths.
Branching paths exist in the dungeons already and it is nice, but it could be taken even further by making what branch is available randomized. So let's say when they do Cutter's Cry HM, they have a tunnel that comes to a dead end with a rock/switch you can interact with. When you interact with the rock a random dice roll is done behind the scenes and depending on the number generated, one of two paths opens up. Either the rocks blocking the passage disappear allowing you to move on through the passage or a sand whirlpool appears beneath you that pulls you down into a different tunnel system. This would make it so that each time the dungeon is run it will most likely be different.

- Randomized boss spawning.
This one is a little less feasible as it requires more content to be generated and tuned, but is still possible Here there would be two different bosses that could spawn for a boss encounter. Which boss is spawned is randomly determined when the boss room is unlocked. Some other alternatives to this are grouping this idea with the randomized branching paths so that boss A is down path A and boss B is down path B, or instead of having two completely different bosses having multiple variants of the same boss with different strategies, phases or adds.

I don't know, turn 8 in second coil they pretty much revolutionized their boss fights.

THE ARENA IS SQUARE! not round XD

Just kidding :P

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Nyzul Isle?

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omfg yes!!! now THAT was a dungeon and NNI!!!???? talk about emotional roller coster w. Basically what this guy is asking is make it like FF11... truly hard "dungeons" no color coded scripted dungeons there XD

Agree.
I want an adventure, not a run...

People will *always* bypass all the "random fun" via some method that's discovered in a day or so.

MMM in XI was supposed to be about randomness, yet people were doing the same damn thing every time for the huge EXP bonus once they figured out how.

I don't think 1-2 hours in length is the answer, but I do think more difficulty in dungeons would be a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Buffo_The_Clown

If Square were to make a dungeon like this, there would have to be a few rules [...]

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Pretty much this. A segmented dungeon that holds rewards separated from the mainstream tomes and gear would be the most viable solution in my opinion. Like the title from BCoB Brutal. If you place cosmetics or housing items in there, you can be damn sure people will end up farming it anyway. Finding a good incentive that doesn't fall into farming will be difficult.

Right now, the "dungeons" we face are more akin a gauntlet of monsters with a chest at the end. Halatali HM was an interesting twist when it comes to the nature of the enemies we fight, but that's about it. To have a challenge-dungeon akin to Qarn, but with a sprawling, maybe even procedural map would be very fun. Having traps or environments that require you to have a certain class or take another path would be cool as well. Like a pit that a dragoon can jump over and then lower a bridge for the group or a set of locks that requires a Fire spell to open.

I think those that find this kind of content enthralling also prefer content that has a certain amount of replayability and novelty with each new run.

Isn't Brutal mode going to solve this issue. you have a single fight with RNG events.

Honestly a 1-2 hour dungeons becomes a 1 time thing. have your fun and forget about it because farming it is out of the question.

and titan ex mode is hard enough if just 1 person fails, a 1 -2 dungeon where someone doesn't get the concept would be murder.