Turn 6 exploit?

I've used the search function to see if the forum already has this discussion and the results turned up a blank, so sorry if this has been asked before.

I've been working on T6 with a couple of raid groups. During phase 1, raid group 1 has the person marked with the yellow mark run into the thorn patch and raid group 2 has the person with the yellow mark wait till the mark disappears and then run to the main tank where everyone else is. Raid group 1 says that raid group 2 is cheating and using an LoS exploit. Is this one of those "unintended" strategies like T2 enrage and mob lock outs in WP, where the developers don't care, or is this something that's going to be fixed, or punished? Or is raid group 1 being a little quick with their "cheaters" remark?

LoS is a key function in many fights, such as Garuda and anything that casts void magic.

It is designed to be interrupted by running behind the target, or behind a barrier.

Practically everything YOU cast on someone/something else is LoS too, you know.

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Originally Posted by Darra

Or is raid group 1 being a little quick with their "cheaters" remark?

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Yes. The devs probably did not foresee that players were quick minded and game up with the LoS method which the whole LoS thing is an integral part of the game.

As devs are human, they can't possibly foresee all forms of alternative scenarios and strategies. As long as it is not game breaking, it would be just regarded as another strategy. You got to somehow give credits to these people who found out these alternative methods, such as T2 enrage, T5 conflags, and how to solo tank instances etc. Even thou such various techniques could trivialize certain things or a whole lot of things, I don't think it have reached a point of game breaking. T6 LoS you still need the raid knowing what to do and how to move, and in another part, the guy with honey glaves knows how to feed himself. If you have an idiot there, it can still cause a wipe.

What would be considered as an exploit would be examples such as platform elevation exploits. In certain instances, certain part of the boss room/area/instances have a different elevation where the boss could not hit you at all if you just stood there, or it simply triggers a bug that makes the boss immobile or simply stop attacking, while you are able to continue attacking the boss. Such acts are considered an exploit, because it completely negates the whole instance and gives you a free win.

using your brain isn't cheating

I made the big thread about T2 and got a very clear response that they were not going to change that encounter, this one has much less of an impact on the fight than T2 rage strat ever did. Every mechanic in this fight still triggers and it requires a 2 tank, 2 heal 4 dps setup so although this was probably not the intended strategy for the fight, it will probably be the most commonly used one. I would bet a good sum of gil against SE changing this fight.

As an added note, you get LoS as a BLM unless you are facing the target as well. Not sure if this is the case for all classes that have attack spells, but you also get LoS as WHM with attack spells if you aren't facing the target, though with healing spells you can heal the target no matter where they are unless a "solid" object is between you or they are too far away. It's just the mechanic of the actual spell or mob.

I know before 2.2, you could hard target a casting mob and literally run circles around around them at the right distance and they would never cast a spell that would hit you. They changed that and other spells so that they would hit regardless, but kept certain ones LoS (like the III spells on the boss in AK and as mentioned above, Garuda's stun attack).

Anyone who calls starts different than intended "cheating" have no idea how the development team thinks. Yoshi has stated multiple times that he loves it when he sees players think outside the box and always looks forward to what we can come up with.

The LoS method has become the preferred because it's just a better strat period. While it requires a bit more skill from the individual player, it removes the semi RNG of disappearing brambles and let's the heals focus in the party as a whole and tanks individually instead of the spikes from various players.

Then mobs who move and get los when i play black mage, cancelling my cast, are also cheaters

The devs haven't come out and said anything specific about T6, but I imagine it's going to be the same situation with T2 where the dev team didn't forsee a specific way to handle a mechanic and are just going to leave it alone. Doing the LoS method still requires some specific timing and awareness and it also stuns the person even if they don't get Devoured, so if you screw up you'll still add a stack to the boss which will increase the difficulty of the fight.

LoS isn't even all that much easier than the traditional method, its only advantage is you don't have to communicate or rotate the boss as much. Making it easier to know where he will be facing when devour happens. It doesn't change all that much.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

LoS isn't even all that much easier than the traditional method, its only advantage is you don't have to communicate or rotate the boss as much.

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Or take damage from the Briar Patches.

LoS = Line of Sight ?
I guess it's about run through the boss to avoid getting sucked in instead of hiding in vine.
But not sure in which particular moment. Can anyone tell me ?

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Originally Posted by tOnni3

LoS = Line of Sight ?
I guess it's about run through the boss to avoid getting sucked in instead of hiding in vine.
But not sure in which particular moment. Can anyone tell me ?

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Stay befor her and run exactly in moment when yellow mark vanish. Sprint helps too.

if LoS method is an exploit as "non originally intended by the devs", then the "run-the-hill" method to get past dives in T5 is an exploit as well (Yoshida said they were surprised to see that at first), and in this case I'm sure that 99.99% of people would have no right to step foot in T6.


Thinking out of the box is great, as long as you don't use hacks.

This has been quite a debate actually.

There's this example I take from 1.0. Back when Garuda fight were released, ppl have discovered an exploit not long after which was dubbed as BLM-burn exploit. Think it only lasted couple of weeks before SE decide to patch it so that the BLM-burn can't be done anymore.

Not sure what's the criteria of allowed exploits are. :?

Previous fights train you for the up coming ones, since the exact "get out of the way" method described is reused in t9 with more drastic punishment for failure.

Our static decided to treat it as not working as intended, therefore we don't use it. But I don't mind or justify groups who use it until SE makes a clear statement.

Reasoning: What else should the briars do apart from saving you from being devoured? Yeah they occupy space and do damage, but srsly? Their only real mechanic purpose is to save you. The Turn 9 argument doesn't count IMO.

If there is not a briar in the middle and the honey potted person does LoS method that player still gets stunned on the run through. So I would assume this is working as entended.

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Originally Posted by Grotesque

Reasoning: What else should the briars do apart from saving you from being devoured? Yeah they occupy space and do damage, but srsly? Their only real mechanic purpose is to save you. The Turn 9 argument doesn't count IMO.

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Not all mechanics are there to save you. You can also argue the briars are there to reduce the space of the arena you have while dealing damage to people standing in it. If LoS wasn't a valid method, they'd long fix the run through for other casting skills like Slipstream, Inferno Howl, etc. You can't run through Mountain Buster or Ifrit's flame breath so I think it belongs to a different category of skills.
At the end of the day, do whatever you want OP, it's not an exploit.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Not all mechanics are there to save you. You can also argue the briars are there to reduce the space of the arena you have while dealing damage to people standing in it. If LoS wasn't a valid method, they'd long fix the run through for other casting skills like Slipstream, Inferno Howl, etc. You can't run through Mountain Buster or Ifrit's flame breath so I think it belongs to a different category of skills.
At the end of the day, do whatever you want OP, it's not an exploit.

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Actually, no, they likely wouldn't. That's sort of how SE is with these things. Unless it's a serious exploit, they leave it so as to not "upset" players who do it that way and make them learn the fight differently. Also you could run through Ifrit for Howl on Extreme. So exploit, perhaps not, but that doesn't mean it was intended.

I've seen people in T6 show off about how they can LOS the devour and then they mess up and still get devoured. Wouldn't call it an exploit at all, not one bit.

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Originally Posted by ToffeeCoffee

I've seen people in T6 show off about how they can LOS the devour and then they mess up and still get devoured. Wouldn't call it an exploit at all, not one bit.

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First, I won't say it is or isn't an exploit. But the thing is, a game dev usually has mechanics work certain ways for a reason. Some things can be creative, and usually are ok, some things are not. If we used devour as an example, it may have been intended that you should 100% get eaten if you are not in a briar, so dodging it without standing in a briar, can be seen as an exploit by a particular dev. Another might not think so.

And the reason for this is that some things don't really change the difficulty of the fight, but some do. If they make it far too easy, it defeats the point of the mechanic being there in the first place. It makes some think, why not just make it a big loot pinata if people keep trying to find a way to make it just that, a loot pinata.

It's the same reason some people disagree with enrage on T2.

If SE want to tell players to stop LOS'ing devour until they modify the mechanic so that it cannot be escaped unless you stand in a briar, they will do so I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by ToffeeCoffee

If SE want to tell players to stop LOS'ing devour until they modify the mechanic so that it cannot be escaped unless you stand in a briar, they will do so I'm sure.

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Maybe I should have been more clear, I was responding to this specific part of your post. "Wouldn't call it an exploit at all, not one bit" And no, they likely would not. SE has shown they won't fix it unless it's really severe, that doesn't make it not an exploit. It was pointed at your comment that is adamant it isn't an exploit.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Maybe I should have been more clear, I was responding to this specific part of your post. "Wouldn't call it an exploit at all, not one bit" And no, they likely would not. SE has shown they won't fix it unless it's really severe, that doesn't make it not an exploit. It was pointed at your comment that is adamant it isn't an exploit.

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It's only my opinion. And wow you have a lot of posts!

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Originally Posted by ToffeeCoffee

It's only my opinion. And wow you have a lot of posts!

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It prolly counts my posts from 1.0, though i'm not 100% sure on that.

I'd hesitate to call this an exploit, the boss is following the same rules as any other mob in the game, and the game almost goes out of it's way to point out and teach you evasive tactics and how their targeting systems work. If suck/devour had cast bars and targeting zones on the floor, there probably wouldn't be much talk about this.

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Originally Posted by BuckyCap

Anyone who calls starts different than intended "cheating" have no idea how the development team thinks. Yoshi has stated multiple times that he loves it when he sees players think outside the box and always looks forward to what we can come up with.

The LoS method has become the preferred because it's just a better strat period. While it requires a bit more skill from the individual player, it removes the semi RNG of disappearing brambles and let's the heals focus in the party as a whole and tanks individually instead of the spikes from various players.

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There is no RNG of vanishing brambles. There's always a set that spawns before devour happens, and it's always there for the time you need it to be.

is it cheating? These questions will help you.

did you use 3rd party software to do it?
did you alter game script?

probably not cheating then.

also. the brambles don't work half the time in stopping you from being eaten.

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Originally Posted by ispano

There is no RNG of vanishing brambles. There's always a set that spawns before devour happens, and it's always there for the time you need it to be.

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Except there is an RNG factor of time, because Brambles are exclusively time based, while Devour is HP based for the first, and can be pushed.

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Originally Posted by subteraneanbird

Except there is an RNG factor of time, because Brambles are exclusively time based, while Devour is HP based for the first, and can be pushed.

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No matter how fast or slow we've gone, we've ALWAYS had a set of brambles spawn right before chain/devour.