Q34: Please implement a DPS tool and a feature that shows a monster’s HP %.

This is the whole question and answer from the live newsletter:

"A34: An HP % display shouldn’t be too hard so we’ll look into it when I get back.
In regards to a DPS tool, we don’t have any plans to implement something you can use during battle. If we were to implement something like this, it would be a necessity for content and we feel it would cause conditions where lines are drawn by players saying a certain amount of DPS output is bad.
However, I understand the requests to be able to know how much DPS you are doing. While it is a bit off in the future, we are thinking to make it so you can understand how much DPS you are doing by having content for beginners where you have to reach a certain amount of DPS within two minutes to clear it."

---> Thank you for not implementing the DPS meter during battle.

Why Am I grateful? Because entering a duty finders like Brayflox HM, before saying "hello" players examine their party-members -and if they are not i90-i100 they leave without a word.
And it is a big trend lately. This kind of rudeness is rampant. If we add a dps meter it will fuel more of intensive to behave this poorly.

I do like that we are encouraged by SE to play smart and not dumb down the mechanics so a vegetable can play.

On the other hand, for fun I would suggest practice dummies have a dps meter. And players can practice and see what variation generates more dps. Think of it as a benchmark like most of us used to measure our computers ^-^

sorry to hear that. i think maybe you should move to another data center. i've played Brayflox Hard more times then i can count. and never once has someone left like you describe.

and yeah at the very least a damage meter at the practice dummies would help a lot. at least we could practice stuff on personnel time.

honestly it would useful inside a dungeon too. lets say you and another player are using the same class/job and are equally geared. with the damage meter you can see, on a boss fight, how the both of your average damage equals out. if his is low you can offer advice. if yours is low you can ask for advice. it's a whole lot easier then paying attention to battle logs or eye-balling the other player through out the entire fight. there are much more important things to focus on. a damage meter can help improve overall efficiency in group content.

Good to know we still value not getting our feelings hurt over identifying faults and improving them.

An addendum to this-

Please allow a combat tool like this to make obvious announcements when certain actions are used.

Instead of scanning the battle log for "Twintania Readies Twister", the addon could scan for us, and flash big on the screen (like duty commenced text) of the same predefined info.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Good to know we still value not getting our feelings hurt over identifying faults and improving them.

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If that's all the meters would be used for, then they're fine. But you know full well that people will use them to trash people rather than say "Hey, I noticed you were moving and canceling casts a lot on BLM. Try to cut down movement and use Aetherial Manipulation to get back into position quickly. It will help your dps a bit."

Instead, it would be "wtf u suck so much" /votedismiss

So, yeah. I value not having to deal with rude players over having a meter to determine what my dps is.

Motoko I totally understand your point. And I wish All tanks and end-gamers have your maturity. And yes I would luv to improve my game play if I am failing.

Anything that indicates that the run could be slow or challenging causes many players to just quit before even starting the run.
And Having the DPS meter within the duty, will just cause more frustration. The first reflex will be "Your DPS is low" -> vote kick for AFK. That is why I am against it.
ONLY have dps meters on dummies for practice is my request.

The basis of this game is to have fun. And to learn among friends. But when your network of friends are not online or not available. PUG's become the last resort for joining a duty. And this is where ragequitters are seen and elitists peek out.

And I want to confirm that NOT all runs are this frustrating. But out of 10 runs there are 5 runs with players that are disagreeable.

SE is going to release Addons support later on and that could end up having DPS tools. Right now SE does not allow people to use the few dps tool out there and you could get ban for it. But only because they don't have control over said tool being made with add-on support they could allow said tool and more people would use it.

But at the end if you doing DF people should expect that it wont be a speed run. When i do dungeon in DF i know that it may take longer then it should. While doing my books for my wep sometime we die 2-4 times on a boss for people to learn the fight. I'm ok with that because i went in DF if i want to do it quick i would have just done a PF for it.

That where the issue is people thinking that they can enter DF and get a awesome party and do dungeon when that does not happen a lot of times.

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

If that's all the meters would be used for, then they're fine. But you know full well that people will use them to trash people rather than say "Hey, I noticed you were moving and canceling casts a lot on BLM. Try to cut down movement and use Aetherial Manipulation to get back into position quickly. It will help your dps a bit."

Instead, it would be "wtf u suck so much" /votedismiss

So, yeah. I value not having to deal with rude players over having a meter to determine what my dps is.

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Get thicker skin, believe the numbers over the words. Improve based on that.

People being scared of getting kicked wouldn't be a problem if they were good enough to not be kicked. Which I know sounds like terrible logic but it's the truth.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Get thicker skin, believe the numbers over the words. Improve based on that.

People being scared of getting kicked wouldn't be a problem if they were good enough to not be kicked. Which I know sounds like terrible logic but it's the truth.

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And there you go, hostile behavior proven. And this is with no DPS meter in place.

If you interpreted that as hostile, I don't know what to tell you.

It was interpreted as hostile because it -was- hostile. I don't need a dps meter to see how well I'm doing.

I have the best meter of them all: The enemy's hp bar.

Is it empty? If yes, my dps is good enough. If no, my dps is not good enough.

Stop pretending that you're being constructive and helpful with your "get thicker skin" crap. All you're doing is being an aggressive db.

That is such a flawed view. There are 3-7 other people with you. How do you know it's your damage that's good or bad enough?

Because it doesn't matter whose dps isn't good enough. If the boss doesn't die, -everyone- needs to dps harder. Yes, even you.

And if one person just isn't capable of it? What then? Bring them tea and tell them it's ok to get carried?

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

Because it doesn't matter whose dps isn't good enough. If the boss doesn't die, -everyone- needs to dps harder. Yes, even you.

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This. Exactly.

Yes, I understand there's always room for improvement, or ways to maximize your efficiency. But the bottom line is fight hard, play your role, and give your 100%. If the situation calls for it, step outside of that comfort zone and do what needs to be done. People who purely want to play-by-numbers usually aren't capable of/willing to do that, and they suffer for it. Worse still, the numbers become that tool to pre-judge players with just as has been said. Being concerned with that isn't a matter of not having thick skin, it's a matter of being excluded or forced out JUST because you don't fit a set formula. If the game were really just that cut-and-dried, then it'd be A: No fun/boring/not challenging (as many by-the-numbers players often complain), and B: There'd be no excuse for failing anything; as so long as you hit those numbers, even human error wouldn't be a factor at all.

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

Because it doesn't matter whose dps isn't good enough. If the boss doesn't die, -everyone- needs to dps harder. Yes, even you.

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Okay, say it's a light party. The tank is rotating his cooldowns as best he can, the healer is throwing out all the dps he can muster, the first dps has a perfect rotation, and each of them is wearing appropriate gear. The second dps, though, is playing like trash. Like he has never even read his abilities and has no idea how to do decent dps. On top of that, he seems to be wearing a mishmash of gear that doesn't even support his role.

You're saying that the first three need to dps harder to carry the guy who's holding them back, even though it's clear where the fault lies?

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Okay, say it's a light party. The tank is rotating his cooldowns as best he can, the healer is throwing out all the dps he can muster, the first dps has a perfect rotation, and each of them is wearing appropriate gear. The second dps, though, is playing like trash. Like he has never even read his abilities and has no idea how to do decent dps. On top of that, he seems to be wearing a mishmash of gear that doesn't even support his role.

You're saying that the first three need to dps harder to carry the guy who's holding them back, even though it's clear where the fault lies?

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In this scenario, do you need a dps meter?

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

In this scenario, do you need a dps meter?

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Touche good sir. This made me lol.

DPS meter at Dummies (( Yes Pleaae))

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

In this scenario, do you need a dps meter?

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Somewhat irrelevant. You made the statement that:

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

If the boss doesn't die, -everyone- needs to dps harder. Yes, even you.

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Unless what you actually mean is "If the boss doesn't die, that guy who sucks needs to dps harder." But that's not what you said. So, which is it? Do we need to struggle to carry people who suck, or does everyone have an onus to play to the best of their ability?

DPS Counter on dummies and in coil would be my preference. Anything outside of coil can be killed no matter what setup you are running except maybe Levi EX.

What I actually mean is what I said. Why is the burden off your shoulders? If the boss doesn't die, you should try harder. So should the other guy. Now, if someone is doing as poorly as you used in your example, then the -best- option is to give advice. Don't trash, insult, namecall, bully. Say "Hey, if you use Straight Shot first, it increases your crit chance for every skill you use after. Another good idea is to keep your DoTs up so when they crit, you get an instant reset of Bloodletter. That will make the boss die faster."

In the more likely scenario where everyone's busting their asses, some people will be higher on dps (either from player skill or by how easy a time a specific job has on any given fight) and some will be lower. The difference will not be that great.

Why do you need a dps meter when my advice will work 100% of the time? "If the boss doesn't die, -everyone- needs to dps harder. Yes, even you."

I do like the discussions going on in this thread. I perceive two passionate points of view:
1) No we don't need DPS meters during battles in duties because of fear of it being used for picking out the weakest dps'er.
2) Yes we need a DPS meter for battles in duties so we can single out faster the weakest link and take appropriate action, including possibly vote kick that player out of the group.

Katja has pointed out the right mentality to have when players are in a group---> IS PLAY AS A GROUP. It has to be dynamic.

PERFECT SOLUTION: Add the DPS meter on training dummies. Take the time to test certain rotations out with friends and see which one has the highest score. Why is this fare? Because there are no other factors taken in consideration. DPS meter in duties will never confirm how good a team-player anyone is.

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

Why do you need a dps meter when my advice will work 100% of the time? "If the boss doesn't die, -everyone- needs to dps harder. Yes, even you."

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Because that's not advice that will work 100% of the time? The fact is, thinking up a counter-example is trivially easy. Any time one person is incapable of eking out more DPS but the boss isn't dying, your advice fails.

Besides, both of us thus far have been using extreme examples. I'm never going to be in a party where 3/4 members are playing correctly; and a BRD that isn't using Straight Shot or dots is, yes, below what you need a parser to measure. But what about the in-between cases? Where you can tell that one person is playing a little above average and the other a little below. Mechanically, it should be easier for the below-average to improve, even if the *how* isn't as blindingly obvious as "use your dots." Why would we not want a tool that lets us know when this is the case?

Because, as stated, it depends on the fight and the class/job of the player. Gears is also a factor.

I've seen a tank rage on WP because both DD were "bad", because their DPS was below average (he used a DPS meter apparantly cause he was giving numbers...).
Now, in context :
Tank was I90, I (healer) was I92, DPS were I50 at most, first WP for both of them...
Tank tried to speed run and took 9 mobs together, DPS were a monk and an Invoker...
After the first wipe, he rage quit giving DPS count for each, shouting they were noob... They were noob indeed, but their DPS was OK considering their gear... (in fact tank didn't used his CD well too and couldn't keep aggro away from me, he wasn't better)

And that what kind of problem a DPS meter could cause. It has to be factored by the ilevel or it will be miss-interpreted.

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

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while i myself dont like them, they can be useful. and sometimes, people just dont take advice. what do you do if someone constantly makes something harder then it needs to be by not playing the class/job to at least average ability? a bard using only straight shot, and ignoring putting dots on something, or a arc/smn only using ruin and not putting dots. a drg barely breaking 100 dps, not using heavy thrust or combos. in these three situations, you could be met with "dont tell me how to play, i do what i want", no matter how nice you would put the advice. a meter could just help you see that faster, tho with the enemy taking longer to die, you will be able to see it without even having one. a parser will just let you see why things are taking as long as they are.

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Originally Posted by Aura_Shurifon

And that what kind of problem a DPS meter could cause. It has to be factored by the ilevel or it will be miss-interpreted.

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I can almost guarantee you that, even without a parser, he would have done the same thing. Parsers don't inflict stupid, believe it or not. . .

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

Now, if someone is doing as poorly as you used in your example, then the -best- option is to give advice. Don't trash, insult, namecall, bully. Say "Hey, if you use Straight Shot first, it increases your crit chance for every skill you use after. Another good idea is to keep your DoTs up so when they crit, you get an instant reset of Bloodletter. That will make the boss die faster."

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Every single time I try giving advice, in DF or PF alike, I get told 9/10 times "I know how to play my job" as they repeatedly shrug off advice and continue being terrible. I want to see those kinds of people fail forever.

It can't get any worse for "those people". They are already shunned by people who parse on the down-low, and idiots who think they know what's wrong in a party when it's themselves. It can only get better for people who are looking for hard evidence to improve themselves.

Just last night I filled in for a friend in Turn 9 on SMN, with another SMN there. I rarely play SMN so I was slacking in the first few attempts. Over the night, both I and the other SMN improved dramatically as we "compared notes", so to speak. It was evident that I did less damage than him despite better gear, so I pushed myself and pulled ahead. Because I care about improving myself.

Here's my stance on the DPS Meter.

If it was implemented it should only be at a Training Dummy. Players that care enough to increase party effeciency will use it to train/practice. Players that could care less wont use it.
An in dungeon DPS Meter would cause less efficient players to be called out and/or trolled.
I think a Dummy Meter would be enough of a tool that the majority of DD players will get better without the need to center them out. A lot of people just don't understand the DD mechanics, but having a visual tool it's easy to understand a higher number is better.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Why would we not want a tool that lets us know when this is the case?

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Because the risk does not outweigh the reward.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Every single time I try giving advice, in DF or PF alike, I get told 9/10 times "I know how to play my job" as they repeatedly shrug off advice and continue being terrible. I want to see those kinds of people fail forever.

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If people blow off politely given advice, then the onus is on them. If the advice is mixed in with a tirade of insults, then you can't really expect anyone to listen.

Your Turn 9 example is exactly how things should work. It is far from the norm when dealing with pugs, however. And it's the DF/PF situations that will see the abuse of the dps meter.

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Originally Posted by TheCurls

Because the risk does not outweigh the reward.

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I assume you're referring to the harassment that will follow?

So, I'm probably in the minority with my stance on this. As such, I'll try to explain my reasoning.

I personally believe that the harassment is not sufficient justification to keep parsers out of the game.

Now, I don't say this because I believe that harassment is a non-issue, or even that it would be "too few cases to matter." The fact is, any harassment in what should be an enjoyable game is inexcusable and ruins the community. Why do I hold the position I do, then? Because I believe that the people who would harass someone over a parse are people that none of us want in this community to start with. If introducing parsers would cause a surge in harassment cases, then I welcome the purging of undesirables that would follow.

I don't see why we can't eventually have a community where people can behave, even with parsers.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I assume you're referring to the harassment that will follow?

So, I'm probably in the minority with my stance on this. As such, I'll try to explain my reasoning.

I personally believe that the harassment is not sufficient justification to keep parsers out of the game.

Now, I don't say this because I believe that harassment is a non-issue, or even that it would be "too few cases to matter." The fact is, any harassment in what should be an enjoyable game is inexcusable and ruins the community. Why do I hold the position I do, then? Because I believe that the people who would harass someone over a parse are people that none of us want in this community to start with. If introducing parsers would cause a surge in harassment cases, then I welcome the purging of undesirables that would follow.

I don't see why we can't eventually have a community where people can behave, even with parsers.

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That is what I meant and I can accept your reasoning. If it will eventually dwindle the harassment into nonexistence, it would be fine.

Parsing tools are made to gather information. What you do with that information is on you.

We cannot blame the idiots for misusing a tool to direct as much blame from themselves as possible, but it isn't fair to deny those who use it for its intended purpose. So I have to apologize, but another guy said it already. Toughen up. Get thicker skin. That guy calling you out in a rude manner is a hollow soul who fills the void with video game excellence. Ignore him. Get better. Get better than him. Have fun, and having fun leads to doing well. Doing well leads to more fun which leads to investigation, interest, and innovation. That all leads to doing better.

It is a positive feedback loop of doing, learning, experimenting, doing. Shut out and ignore the people who demand you play according to their whims.

Use the information and improve.

(that means +1 to Parsing tools)

It's usually cuz for every one good/ nice player there are like two or three bad/ douchéy players.
So technically there are just too much ppl who would abuse it if it was given to them.
Ppl do it because they can and are protected behind their screen/ t.v
No one will punch em out if they start trash talking.

Soooooooo no need to throw water onto a grease fire.
Only idiots will think the water will put it out.
Just like how ppl think adding an in game dps measurer will benefit the community in the long run.

If there is any DPS meter, it needs to be limited to showing only your own DPS. If it has any usefulness for improving your gameplay, then that's where its usefulness would be needed - in helping you learn how to improve your own results.

Nobody has any business seeing other players' scores on it. Knowing that player X is low on DPS is only useful if you can offer constructive advice regarding what skills would serve player X better. But the DPS meter isn't going to provide that advice. If you know the advice, then you can offer it regardless of what DPS scores some meter would show, and if you don't know the advice, then the scores are equally irrelevant because you can't do anything about them.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Knowing that player X is low on DPS is only useful if you can offer constructive advice regarding what skills would serve player X better.

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Which isn't hard, if you're familiar with the job they're playing. I say that because it's usually something fundamental that they're screwing up if they're really low DPS.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

But the DPS meter isn't going to provide that advice. If you know the advice, then you can offer it regardless of what DPS scores some meter would show, and if you don't know the advice, then the scores are equally irrelevant because you can't do anything about them.

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Actually, I've been in situations before (back before they instituted the current policy on parsers) where I was only able to give advice because of the information the parser provided. I said before that it's usually something fundamental; that doesn't mean that it's obvious. I was in a Titan HM group with a MNK who was pulling really low DPS, but I couldn't figure out why. I wasn't seeing any of his debuffs drop; he was using Fist of Fire; everything I could see looked to be right. Turned out he wasn't using Snap Punch, and was clipping Demolish by about 12 seconds every rotation. Since I can't sit there and watch the timer on Demo for an entire Titan fight, I wasn't going to see that. I was also in a party with a DRG who wasn't using any oGCD abilities at all. Like, I'm not even sure he was using B4B or anything. Yeah, the lack of jumps is somewhat noticeable, but he wasn't even using Leg Sweep. How am I supposed to notice that without a parser?