How's my BLM Rotation?

If on groups of 3 or more, I'll open with Thunder or a variant of it and spread it across all enemies, then start on my Fire 3 first(usually with Swiftcast), then go with Fires from there. Once Firestarter procs, I'll use those or Thundercloud if I have to move, otherwise I'll just use them right away. I pop Manawall often since it has a effect time for half of it's cooldown, better to just use it when it's up instead of saving it, since in most cases I shouldn't be taking physical damage, just in case I Fire 2 pull on groups.


I use Convert and Raging Strikes in conjunction with each other after Fire 3 is up, then straight Fires with procs and Convert later as my MP is gone for more, and since I'm not at 50 yet Flare isn't in the equation.

For Umbral Ice recovery, am I misusing my MP if I am in Astral Fire and don't have enough MP for a Blizzard 3 in it? Or is that something that's just going to happen sometimes? In which case I'd just have to Transpose and wait a few seconds for MP to come back. I try to use only Fires in Astral Fire but occasionally I'll use a Thunder in it for a Boss just so it's still ticking on something, I should probably change that yeah? Anything else I should explicitly know for the class?

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Originally Posted by Huntington

If on groups of 3 or more, I'll open with Thunder or a variant of it and spread it across all enemies

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Please don't.

That particularly bad? I thought the more procs there are the better

Convert and raging strikes, nope i would not do that or are you using it after your fire3? If that is the case then that is fine.
Thunder would not be good for a aoe rotation but if you want thunder, you may do so after Ice3, Ice 3> Thunder 2
Many start off with Fire 3 for rotations but myself i usually always start with Ice 3 since then the Fire 3 cast will be sped up.
Unless using swiftcast for Fire 3 the time it takes to cast Ice 3 and Fire 3 is about the same so why not add the little bit of extra damage and then go all off in Astral Fire.
Also when thunder or Fire procs, do not stop a rotation to use them as this is a loss of dps, you can say after fire 1 it procs, you can cast another fire 1 and then use Firestarter

I'm not an expert at BLM but I can offer you some advice that has worked well.

With large groups (like, for example, with speedrunning dungeons), it is a far better use of your time to throw off one Fire 3 (to get 3x astral stacks), then use Fire 2 until you are almost out of mana, and finish with a Flare. Don't bother with thunder -- waste of time on huge pulls. Then, convert+swiftcast for a second flare if needed. Keep in mind that this is the HIGHEST damage potential and unless a tank is really confident in his/her ability to keep threat, you may pull hate. Before 50, it may be a real problem, so be careful with this knowledge and watch your threat. I like to pop off raging strikes and quelling strikes before the first flare, just to be safe. After the second flare, you can transpose, throw off another Fire 3 to get your 3x stacks back, then a few Fire 2s and another Flare. Since you don't have Flare yet, you may wish to use a few Fire 2s, and then switch to single-target if you get close to pulling threat on anything but the 'main target' (tank should be marking).

While in 3x astral stacks, you can use Blizzard 3 to put yourself at 3x umbral. The reason this is preferably is because... it costs little MP while you are in astral 3x, no time is wasted, and Blizzard 3 will take far less time to cast while you are in 3x astral than if you had just transposed to umbral 1x. It's not a huuuuuge dps loss to do it the way you mentioned, but it is far more efficient this way. At 50, you'll want to use your last Fire 1 when you have around 1k mp (leaving you near 400 left), throw off any Fire 3 proc if you have one, then Blizzard 3 followed by a variant of thunder. If you planned correctly, there will be ZERO downtime 'waiting'. At 50, you'll be using this method to swap between having very little mana and having full mana quite often.

Keep in mind that BLM, for the most part, must be 'standing still' to do damage. Needing to move/dodge is a dps loss on its own, so try to alleviate this problem by throwing off your procs while you need to dodge if you have them... because otherwise you wouldn't be dealing any damage whatsoever. Plus, using procs forces you to wait on the global cooldown for your next spell anyway, so using them while you would be moving anyway is the most efficient use of them. I'm not saying let them fall off if you don't find a good opportunity to use them -- but rather, observe your surroundings and plan accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Ryuko

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Okay, I'll avoid Thunder on groups from now on. I should use Thunder 2 on single enemies though and use Thunder 3 for the procs though yeah? It'd still be fine if I'm going for any one target at a time to setup one Thunder on it though yeah? I pop Quelling when I can for bigger pulls yeah along with Raging Strikes after Fire 3 is up during Astral if it feels safe to use it, then Fire 2 or 1 depending on single target or mobs. I'll keep that all in mind about Flare for later, because I plan on just doing some for fun runs of CT or something to get some practice in with Flare.


I try to never use Transpose once I got Blizzard 3. I'll use it if a fight ended and I was in Astral or if I'm level synced or my MP is too low for Blizzard, those are about the only times I'll use it. Good to know about the rest.

Mhmm, I read through a thread the other day that was talking about using the procs if you have to move, and saving them for then. While you could possibly waste one if another procs while you already had one, it's safer to make sure your DPS is constant and use that proc when you have to move. If I don't have one ready I'll Scathe for it when I move. Thanks for the advice Ryuko.

T3 on procs :) and as for transpose, if you get a fire proc when you B3, hit transpose before the insta F3. Does a little more damage :)

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Originally Posted by Maero

... with Ice 3 since then the Fire 3 cast will be sped up. ...

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you're w8sting a 3.x seconds (depending on sps) cast to be able to get another twice as fast cast?

I find myself using transpose more than I used to. When I get to the low point after Fire spam, and I know I don't have enough for BlizzIII I will transpose, thunder II then Fire III, I think with some patch to it some time ago, it tics better, I could be trippin though. By the time I am done with Fire III I am back at full mana and ready to burn again. If I have those few extra mana for BlizIII then I pop my macro that tosses scathe right after BlizIII, back to thunder II then fire rotation.

Remeber for BLM, we are a RNG type cannon. To maximize our DPS you MUST ALWAYS BE CASTING, no breaks, even a second will throw your deeps off.

I will contridict that though for a second. In SR's, my AoE rotation looks a little like this. FireIII > FireIIx2/3 > Flare > Convert/Flare(macro) > Transpose > [[Swiftcast > Flare > Flare]].
[[ For the Transpose > Swiftcase part I do a one second type activation. Click transpose, wait a sec, click swiftcast, wait a sec, then click flare. By doing this I usually get another tick for the second flare at the end]] That part takes a bit of practice but once you get it, you will make it happen everytime.

On a sidenote, I always pop quelling before I start my AoE rotation on the first big pull. Then a macro'd manawall/ward for the second pull. You are going to pull aggro, no ones fualt, just be the bad ass you are!

Just my 2g

Syn

hey Huntington,

if you want you can msg me ingame and we will go over some of the blm rotations^.^

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Originally Posted by ks3v3n

you're w8sting a 3.x seconds (depending on sps) cast to be able to get another twice as fast cast?

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The point of that is to get a free T2 and a reduced F3 for an extra F1 in your first rotation.

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Originally Posted by ks3v3n

you're w8sting a 3.x seconds (depending on sps) cast to be able to get another twice as fast cast?

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Originally Posted by Waliel

The point of that is to get a free T2 and a reduced F3 for an extra F1 in your first rotation.

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^ and this is more or less it, you know what i am saying, lol
Trust me i have tried many different rotations i have found this one to work the best for me, and my numbers are just fine
Not to mention one can argue that by the time your Fire 3 (hardcast) is done i am already dealing damage.
Again not trying to argue just posting what i do and there are times i do not start with Ice 3

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Originally Posted by Maero

Not to mention one can argue that by the time your Fire 3 (hardcast) is done i am already dealing damage.

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You do realize hard casting Blizzard 3 and Fire 3 takes the same time and they do the same damage right? :s As a Black Mage you want to avoid spending as much time in Umbral Ice phase as possible. Your numbers may be "fine", but probably not fine enough to give other people advises.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

The point of that is to get a free T2 and a reduced F3 for an extra F1 in your first rotation.

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You get a crappy half damage Fire 3.

Well who makes you top mage here. Like seriously man no need to be a jerk about it.
Instead maybe why not post your rotation and numbers if you have any.
Blm is not my only class and i have been doing just "fine" as you put it in coil and EX Primals
Maybe Uninstall yourself from this thread if you will not be of any help

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Originally Posted by Uninstall

You do realize hard casting Blizzard 3 and Fire 3 takes the same time and they do the same damage right? :s As a Black Mage you want to avoid spending as much time in Umbral Ice phase as possible. Your numbers may be "fine", but probably not fine enough to give other people advises.


You get a crappy half damage Fire 3.

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^this and nothin else matters.

@maero
its pretty much false assumption you think you do more dmg xP

no false assumptions, have any of you done testing even? Their are countless threads of those with numbers.
Kudos if your ways work, people have different rotations,
heck after a transpose and waiting for mana does not always tick either due to lag or what not so i always have to change stuff up.
Anyhow at least you are not rude like previous poster as this thread from op was started about his rotation being good or not, back on subject people

@ks3v3n

Opening w/ B3 for a free Thunder/Halfcast F3 for the additional Fire in the opening rotation results in a higher DPS after the beginning of the first rotation.

B3: 220 Potency(176 under AF3), 3.5 sec/cast
F3: 220 Potency(176 under AF3), 3.5 sec/cast
T2: 50 Potency, 2.75 sec/cast
F1: 150 Potency(270 under AF3), 2.5 sec/cast

B3>T2>F3 is 8 Seconds, 446 Potency; 55.75pps(from now on referred to as "Rotation 1")
T2>F3>F1 is 8.75 seconds, 540 Potency; 61.71pps(from now on referred to as "Rotation 2")

So obviously, Rotation 2 seems like it's higher

Lets do a full rotation

Rotation 1 allows for 5 F1. An additional 1350 potency over 12.5 seconds. (1350+446)/20.25 = 88.69pps

Rotation 2 only gets 4 F1, and already used 1 in the opening. So it ends its first rotation w/ 3 additional F1 and an additional 7.5 seconds
(540+810)/16.25 = 83.07

As you can see, Rotation 1(opening with B3) is clearly more PPS over a full rotation, simply do to the additional F1.(Not even taking into account the chance for an additional Firestarter)

Now, the difference between them is 5PPS, by no means a large amount, and probably not a very large determining factor of your overall DPS in a fight.

However the fact is using Rotation 1 will have resulted in more damage over a full beginning rotation than Rotation 2. You could try to argue that R2 has a quicker chance to proc a Firestarter, however it needs 2 Firestarter before it will be doing more damage, and you only get 4 chances, compared to 5 chances with R1.

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Originally Posted by Uninstall

You do realize hard casting Blizzard 3 and Fire 3 takes the same time and they do the same damage right? :s As a Black Mage you want to avoid spending as much time in Umbral Ice phase as possible. Your numbers may be "fine", but probably not fine enough to give other people advises.


You get a crappy half damage Fire 3.

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Yes, I get a half damage Fire3, as well as an additional F1, meaning I've done 5x 270 potency spells by the time you've finished casting your second thunder, and have only cast 4x 270 potency spells.

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Originally Posted by Uninstall

You get a crappy half damage Fire 3.

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UI stance is -30%, and F3 hits for low amounts in neutral, anyway.

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Originally Posted by IAmPotent

Yes, I get a half damage Fire3, as well as an additional F1, meaning I've done 5x 270 potency spells by the time you've finished casting your second thunder, and have only cast 4x 270 potency spells.

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And an additional chance of Firestarter proc.

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Originally Posted by IAmPotent

T2: 50 Potency, 2.75 sec/cast

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T2 is 3 second/cast, and you should count the dot potency as well. So it's 50+35*7=295.

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Originally Posted by IAmPotent

B3>T2>F3 is 8 Seconds, 446 Potency; 55.75pps(from now on referred to as "Rotation 1")
T2>F3>F1 is 8.75 seconds, 540 Potency; 61.71pps(from now on referred to as "Rotation 2")

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Rotation 1 lasts for an additional 0.75 seconds. So it's 9 as well. The "half speed" F3 may be half of 3.5 second cast time, but you still have to wait a whole GCD before using the next spell.

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Originally Posted by IAmPotent

Lets do a full rotation

Rotation 1 allows for 5 F1. An additional 1350 potency over 12.5 seconds. (1350+446)/20.25 = 88.69pps

Rotation 2 only gets 4 F1, and already used 1 in the opening. So it ends its first rotation w/ 3 additional F1 and an additional 7.5 seconds
(540+810)/16.25 = 83.07

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The change would be rotation 1 now does 2019 potency over 21.5 seconds, which gives you 93.91pps.
Rotation 2 should instead be either T1>F3>F1>F1>F1>F1 or F3>F1>F1>F1>F1. The first one gives 1540 potency/16 seconds=96.25pps, and the second is 1300 potency/13.5 seconds=96.30pps. The reason for using T1 instead of T2 is because the rotation is shorter so you won't have a chance to use the full duration of T2.

@Waliel
Now if you add in Firestarter, it becomes a bit more complicated. For all the middle Fire 1s, it is 0.6*(150*1.8)+0.4*(220*1.8+150*1.8)/2, giving you an average of 295.2 potency/GCD, the very last one is 150*1.8+0.4*(220*1.4-220*0.7) since triggering that Firestarter allows your next Fire 3, the one under Umbral Ice to go from a 0.7 multiplier to 1.4.

So if we really wanna account for Firestarter, Rotation 1 becomes 2181.4 potency / 21.5 seconds = 101.46 pps. Rotation 2 without Thunder is 1437.2 potency over 13.5 seconds = 106.46.

Anyways, I don't see how I was being rude. I would say it's considered more rude to pass off things as facts when the only thing you have to back it up is "my numbers seem fine".

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Originally Posted by Uninstall

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Changing cast times of thunders doesn't change anything as long as the same variables are being changed in both equations.

You also cannot argue that you would "use Thunder 1 in the second rotation because it's going to be longer". The debate is about opening with Bliz3 vs Thunder. Therefore if you use T1 in Rotation 2, you are using T1 in Rotation 1 as well.(because after the opening the rotations are going to be the same anyways)

However, as I stated, by the time you finish your 2nd Thunder cast, I've already cast

1x Bliz3,1x Thunder, 1x UI3 F3, and 5x F1.

compared to:

2x Thunder, 1x F3, and 4x F1


^Those amount of skills take roughly the same amount gcd's to perform(maybe .5sec difference)

You cannot in any way argue that 2 Thunder2(100 potency) + 1F3(220) + 4 F1(1080) + 1 AF3 B3(176)=(1576) is more potency than 1 B3(220), 1T2(50), 1 UI3 F3(176) & 5x F1(1350) = 1796.

For a proper theoretical comparison, both rotations have to be done until they reach the same amount of time performing.

Of course T>F3>F1>F1>F1>F1 looks stronger than B3>T>F3>F1>F1>F1. Because you've only done 3 F1 vs 4 F1. Both of those sets are around the 13-14 second mark.

But bringing them to the same relative time frame(adding Bliz3>T restart to the end) shows that although you're doing more damage in the first 15 seconds by starting with T/F3, you're going to be doing MORE damage after 20 seconds than you were with the other rotation.

You were the one that's calculating pps/second so obviously cast time does mattered there... u_u; I also stated you must include Thunder's dot potency, as once again, that matters for the pps/second calculation you did.

You do realize your argument is extremely flawed because the rotation that doesn't start with Blizzard will once again pull ahead after 20 seconds? At 20 seconds it's the second rotation that's using Fires while the first one is using Blizzard and Thunder.

And at 30 seconds the first will be ahead, and at 40 the second, at 50 the first, etc.

They are going to continue to bounce until they they are interrupted, at which point will determine which one "provides higher DPS"

Neither of us is RIGHT, which my argument clearly shows, and which was one of the things implied by "Neither is a large determining factor in your overall DPS".

As well, changing the cast times doesn't matter, IF ALL thunders were calculated under the same cast time. The ratio between the 2 end results will always be the same as long as the same variable was changed in both. In fact, the final result, whether the NUMBERS are right or not, does not matter. Only the ratio between the 2 numbers is what was being discussed.

I could use made up numbers, as long as I used the same numbers for each variable in each equation.

Biggest AOE Burst:
F3 > F2 until ~300 MP (lowest MP you can use flare) > Flare > Convert + Swift Cast > Flare > X Ether > Flare > Transpose > B3 (you can wait until you're at full MP)> Rinse Repeat.

Note that Swift Cast can be used in any of the 3 flares
Huge Spike in Damage and enmity.

Sustainable AOE DPS
F3 > F2 until ~300MP > Flare > Transpose > B3 (you can wait until you're at full MP)> Rinse Repeat