Why Overmelding is equivalent to current ATMA grinding

Just like the current ATMA grinding, there is an extreme amount of luck involved in overmelding. You can get lucky melding your first forbidden slot, just like getting lucky with an ATMA from your first FATE. Or you could be unlucky, and like last night, go 0 for 40 trying to meld a Control II into my AF leatherworker pants first forbidden slot.

To get the first level of crafting mastery available, HQ'ing 2-star items and such. I would have loved to see truly crafted AF+1, using drops from dungeons or HM Primals. Using this logical path, crafters are working to better themselves. there's a luck component still, but if someone doesn't want to hope they get a dungeon drop they need, buy it off the market boards. They still have determined how much time they want to invest, either by running dungeons or selling items to make the money needed to buy the item needed to upgrade. In addition, a crafter could progress at whatever pace they want, piece by piece or doing it all at once.

Aside from just luck with the random number generator, RNG, the similarities more or less ends there.

When overmelding, you can make the decision to spend the more expensive materia on the slots before heading into the overmelding slots.
You also have the choice of picking which order of what materia to overmelding. Most people would most likely go the route of saving gil, thus melding the most expensive/rare materia first for a better chance, and the cheap/common ones last. Since each overmeld drops immensely; 40%, 20%, 10%, 5% with minor fluctuations depending on the materia you're using.

Gathering Atma from FATEs is just playing with RNG, also don't see the %. You do have a choice of which FATE to go to, but that doesn't make much of a difference.
Even after gathering all the Atma you need, all it does it prep your weapon for an upgrade with books. It does not actually upgrade anything yet.
Also you can't buy Atma, you're forced to obtain them on your own.

My point is that there is still the RNG element to this unlocking of progression, versus a concrete unlocking. You pay 10k, you can meld into slot 3, 30k for slot 4, or 60k for slot 5. You go defeat Leviathan HM, you get Atma of the Waterbearer. No RNG to play with. No feeling unlucky you can't progress because a number generator is not allowing you.

Some level of RNG is ok to mix things upbut too much RNG, especially when you have little to no control of the results of that RNG, just isn't a fun mechanic for modern games.

It sucks because you could spend 1 or 100 materia trying to slot that 5th slot. But the worst part of the overmelding system is the clunky melding interface and the fact that you have to go through the same stupid UI dialogs -> meld animation -> fail -> repeat loop over, and over, and over, and over again until you finally stick that last materia. It can end up being quite a lot of wasted time on low % materia melds and it's boring as all hell.

It would be much better as an exact system where you just use multiple materia for overmelds. First overmeld requires 2-3 materia to fill the slot, Second requires 4-5, Third 8-9, Fourth 11-12. Or something of that nature. Maybe have a random chance to use 1-2 less materia so there's still a random aspect of getting a lucky reward. But remove the wide range of random results and definitely remove the repetitive meld -> fail -> meld -> fail -> meld -> fail process. It sucks.

Am I seriously the only crafter that likes that our progression has almost zero to do with the PvE progression? My ability to be serious business weaver shouldn't be tied to my ability to be able to kill Primals, Leviathan teaches me nothing about rolled hems.

I think we all might be misunderstanding what the OP was trying to convey.

The title of the thread, "Why Overmelding is equivalent to current ATMA grinding", seems to say he is trying to compare the two systems.

But then it seems like he is instead trying to give feedback on the Atma system instead.
Such as recommending that Atma drops from Primal HM/EX fights instead of solely FATE drops... I don't know, maybe that's wrong too. I'm not all too sure what he is trying to get at.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Am I seriously the only crafter that likes that our progression has almost zero to do with the PvE progression? My ability to be serious business weaver shouldn't be tied to my ability to be able to kill Primals, Leviathan teaches me nothing about rolled hems.

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But on the other hand, what does buying an inhuman amount of materia and pressing a button, then hoping it sticks teach you about crafting?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think battlecraft drops is the best way to go about it, either. But solely relying on materia as a means of progression feels bad, man.
The new ilvl 70 tools and glasses are a good step in the right direction, but it's not enough.

I think its a cultural thing tbh, eastern cultures are quite superstitious of luck and chance where as the same is not really true for western cultures outside of a bit of gambling here and there.

This is a Japanese game so expect lots of RNG and unfairness.

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Originally Posted by lackofwords

I think we all might be misunderstanding what the OP was trying to convey.

The title of the thread, "Why Overmelding is equivalent to current ATMA grinding", seems to say he is trying to compare the two systems.

But then it seems like he is instead trying to give feedback on the Atma system instead.
Such as recommending that Atma drops from Primal HM/EX fights instead of solely FATE drops... I don't know, maybe that's wrong too. I'm not all too sure what he is trying to get at.

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Seems easy to understand, he is saying too much RNG, tone it down.

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Leviathan teaches me nothing about rolled hems.

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And the crafting system does ?

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Am I seriously the only crafter that likes that our progression has almost zero to do with the PvE progression? My ability to be serious business weaver shouldn't be tied to my ability to be able to kill Primals, Leviathan teaches me nothing about rolled hems.

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The idea behind Materia is cool. I just hate the mechanics of it. It's either an annoyin' timesink or a good way to flush all yer gold down the crapper. The worst part is really that the best way to get Materia IS to PvE...Farmin' in South Shroud, for example. It's not only faster than making Cobalt Bars or somethin', but it doesn't consume materials, especially the shards and crystals. And if you wanted to mine it all yerself, you could wear the craftin' gear and mine shards...But that's even slower since they're all level 1.

All that said, I reall do like the idea behind it. Like you said, it has nothin' to do with killin' shite unless you make it so. A crafter has to make the equipment, then a crafter has to improve it. It's all craftin'. And before this patch, it was even customizable...Did you want more CP or Control? Put that shite in there. Up to a point of course. But the offhand is a good example of how it works well, mechanics aside.

But it is the mechanics. The implementation, all RNG and no mistake, is frustratin'. There's no way to do it that just feels like yer makin' any progress. Grindin' Materia for hours just to blow it up doesn't feel awesome.

It's kinda like how items for PvE work in the game now. Ya could go years without seein' the gloves you want drop off of some dragon. But there's tomestones, so you could pick up a pair of those OTHER gloves at least. If there was some kinda definite progression it'd be nice, but you can't have some piece of gear with "slightly off" stats in the current model, since everythin' needs to be perfectly melded to get to the 3 star crafts.

Risk vs Reward. Having RNG determine weather or not you can successfully over-meld makes sense. Without the RNG, everyone would be easily capable of mastering all crafts, thereby destroying the market for 3-star items AND the materia market as well.
That being said, one change I would love to see is having the percentage of success increase depending on what stats the craftsman has. Even if it's only a little bit, it would give incentive to not go to just any craftsman for your melds, the same way you wouldn't go to just any available craftsman for synthesis.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

And the crafting system does ?

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About as well as being a Bard teaches you about actual archery?

I don't appreciate the fact that my ability to actually make anything whatsoever past i70 depends entirely on my absolutely maxing out all the stats on my crafting gear with materia. Not almost. Not boosting. They have to be perfect to even attempt half these recipes. The game physically will not allow me to even attempt to craft i70 stuff without melding a whole boatload of materia to my gear. That's not progression, that's just wasting my time.

It feels more and more like the game hates me for being a crafter.

I like the whole rng factor, although the fail animations suck, as for atma from what I understand its a massive chore and time sink, but then so was getting all the new main tools for all crafting classes. it takes a lot of resources to get them, although there's very little rng involved in that just time.

and you don't need max stats to do the new 3 stars but you do have to be pretty close to perfect that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by jeremy

...go 0 for 40 trying to meld...
...the money needed to buy the item needed to upgrade...

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I think it is a bad idea as logically the item needed to upgrade should be expansive than 40materia, as everyone can spiritbond but not everyone can farm the item.
And the worst thing is the drop rate might as rare as mirror and you have to NEED it against 7ppl, it will be double RNG.

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Originally Posted by infinitezero

Without the RNG, everyone would be easily capable of mastering all crafts, thereby destroying the market for 3-star items AND the materia market as well.

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This is an argument I can understand. But the real problem I personally have with the system as it stands is that the RNG is just far too unforgiving. It forces you to throw such enormous quantities of time and money into a bottomless hole, and the reward doesn't feel nearly worth the effort. Just to be able to craft i70 gear at all costs millions of gil in buying or hundreds of hours of grinding materia. My reward for that isn't being really good at crafting. My reward for that is that the game will allow me to attempt to make nice things.

Again, my primary point is that too much RNG in the game is not fun. Even if it shows you how much of a success rate you can get, if I spend weeks spiritbonding, just to watch it all go down the toilet because of some 34% percent on my leatherworker pants, its not fun. Just like hours/days/weeks trying to farm one or more FATE's trying to get that last ATMA you need. You could be doing other things during these times, but in order for you to PROGRESS in the portion of game you are currently focused on, requires an RNG that you the player has no control over then why play? Again, you can't PROGRESS with something you enjoy doing, something that provides for your in-game needs, because luck is not on your side.

There has to be something better than the RNG gods saying, "Nope, we don't want you to be a master crafter. Next!" I cannot subscribe to this theory...

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Originally Posted by jeremy

Again, my primary point is that too much RNG in the game is not fun. Even if it shows you how much of a success rate you can get, if I spend weeks spiritbonding, just to watch it all go down the toilet because of some 34% percent on my leatherworker pants, its not fun. Just like hours/days/weeks trying to farm one or more FATE's trying to get that last ATMA you need. You could be doing other things during these times, but in order for you to PROGRESS in the portion of game you are currently focused on, requires an RNG that you the player has no control over then why play? Again, you can't PROGRESS with something you enjoy doing, something that provides for your in-game needs, because luck is not on your side.

There has to be something better than the RNG gods saying, "Nope, we don't want you to be a master crafter. Next!" I cannot subscribe to this theory...

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There is too much RNG but you only bring 2 elements of the game. There are other stuff that are not RNG but you progress toward it. I think this game have a bit of everything. A lot of people here start complaining before a month of the new stuff because they dont have it or can accest it in a instant, after all this is a MMO is suppose to take time to do stuff. Maybe I like old school mmo i dont know.

Does anybody know a 3 star crafter who has gotten the Materia on his own instead of spending tons of GIL? I don't know a single one. I refuse to pay 50-80k for a single Materia and then just blow it through the roof in under 5 seconds. Chances for overmelding suck and they made it that it only works this way. All HQ gear? Nice but that doesn't get you anywhere besides providing better chances to HQ non star recipies. All Materia slots filled? Nice, but still under the requirements even for 2 star crafting. 2 forbidden slots used on each item? Nice but 3 star is still far away on the Horizon. Requirements are just too high for people who prefer to equip themselves without playing the market board game.

I am always binding 2-3 items when I am doing random solo stuff like FATES, beast tribe or Agenda quests. Out of 20 Materia I bind, I have MAYBE 1-2 Control materia. And then comes an 11% chance to insert it. Wooo hooo the fun. Absurd high requirements and absurd ways to get there.

your right that most 3 star master crafters (including myself) did not farm our own materia, why would we when its cheap on mb. it only get really expensive after 2.2 because of everyone who has to re-meld or is just starting.

I don't think the devs want everyone to have everything at all times, however since relic weapons and atma are needed for the advancement of end game content they should be a little easier to get since most people are playing that content, you should still have to work for it though.

No problem in working towards a Goal. But Materia is double RNG lottery (spirit bonding lottery and then insertion lottery with even lower chances) and that's too much imo. I work since months to get my DOH to the point where I can HQ any 2 star recipie with NQ mats. So far I did not achieve it for a single one of them. Since four weeks I am trying to insert a Control materia into my weavers offhand. Got 5 control Materia in that time out of maybe 50 items I spirit bonded, all insertions failed. That's not a progression feeling, it is pure frustration. It would be even worse if I would pay for them. It already hurts when I blow a Control III Materia through the roof even if it didn't cost me anything but time.

See this is my exact frustration as well. I spirit-bonded 20 Control III, blew them all up in one sitting. Buy 20 of these "cheap" Control III of the MB since I had sold some dress materials and what not, blew all of them up. No skill involved just pure luck. Progress halted.

control 3 in leviathan is crazy expensive i truely just gave up on crafting because if i know SE like i think i know SE, they will release some new content making your pentamelds worthless! My biggest complaint is the fact there is a even lower RNG chance at retrieving your materia. I'd be nice to be able to reliably remove your materia so that you can use it or sell it but NOPE. everything worth damn in this game is trapped in RNG and you will be screwed 98% of the time.

^^ I was so happy when I read they are introducing the Materia exchange in Central Thanalan and thought great, I can use 5 Materia to determine which one I would like to get. Takes some time to bind 5 but you know at least you can get the one you want.

But when I saw what it really is - even more RNG, you still don't have any saying in what you get and it might be worse than the 5 you used - it truely pissed me off. Seems for SE, the Materia system is perfectly fine as it is - only meant for people with insane amounts of money willing to burn a good portion of it so they have another GIL sink in the Game. Yeah GIL sink!! So players can buy even more GIL from RMT.

I was really interested in the handworkers. But seeing that I will always be far behind unless I start investing big cash into bought Materia makes me lose interest more and more. For all combat classes it is MY speed and planning that determines the progress. If I run enough dungeons per week (lockouts left aside), I can exchange tomes I get with a 100% chance and can gear up. So it is up to my whether I can get 1,2,3 or more pieces on a weekly base. But even if I run around in FULL spirit bonding items, only Lord knows whether I will get ONE of the Materia I need. And even IF I get it, again only Lord knows if it can be inserted.

would just like to say that crafting in final fantasy has always been random... you should just feel lucky they made it so easy to get your lv to 50. having every player in the game able to make every piece of gear kills the servers economy.. they want it to be ridiculously hard.. its end game final fantasy. I understand your frustration.. but this is what makes you feel like you have accomplished something when you do finally get to the end. just keep with it and all your hard work will pay off in the end. it always does ^^
p.s.
the same thing goes to all the people crying about relic being so frustrating to get.. ITS SUPPOSED TO BE. only a small percentage of a server should even have them complete. there are other options available. if you don't like grinding... don't.. but don't expect things to be just handed to you either.. the best items should be worked for and take time.

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Originally Posted by omfgwtf

would just like to say that crafting in final fantasy has always been random... you should just feel lucky they made it so easy to get your lv to 50. having every player in the game able to make every piece of gear kills the servers economy.. they want it to be ridiculously hard.. its end game final fantasy. I understand your frustration.. but this is what makes you feel like you have accomplished something when you do finally get to the end. just keep with it and all your hard work will pay off in the end. it always does ^^
p.s.
the same thing goes to all the people crying about relic being so frustrating to get.. ITS SUPPOSED TO BE. only a small percentage of a server should even have them complete. there are other options available. if you don't like grinding... don't.. but don't expect things to be just handed to you either.. the best items should be worked for and take time.

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Would be nice if it was a challenge, but it's just nonsense, all the way through.

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Originally Posted by Trespar

Would be nice if it was a challenge, but it's just nonsense, all the way through.

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I have to agree.

We have to deal with RNG during the actual crafting process already, if we want HQ, which is the only viable option we have (except vanity stuff).
Not if making some lower level stuff of course, but if you try to make 2-3-star items you know that you can't get enough CP to get to 100% HQ without some luck with good and excellent condition at the right time.
We also have to level all DoH to 50 to get the skills required for a good chance at HQ.

The quests for the new DoH mainhand and head are good.
They force players to really craft their stuff to advance, instead of just buying their way up.
Because that's what materia melding is. Throw enough money at it and you will get what you need sooner or later.
The only thing they could improve is what you get for trading NQ items.
The buff food you get atm is...not very useful.

However.
I'd like to see more such ways to advance crafting in the future.
Progress DoH through crafting and not by "throwing gil" at it.
Ideally, I'd like to go through a number of quests, which require non tradeable crafted items from me, to improve my stats and to get new recipes.

The whole "require fully melded/overmelded gear just to be able to attempt a synth" is a bit too much.
Just imagine Coil would require DoW/DoM to wear overmelded gear (because there is no higher ilvl available) to meet the minimum requirements to even get in, just to get drops which are equivalent to what they already got from running dungeons.

It would be fine if the result was worth it, but what we get is some ilvl90 stuff which can be better than mythology stuff if you throw even more materia/gil at it. Again NQ being a nogo.
I'd be fine if I could craft ilvl100 stuff just for myself. It could be hard to make, but it would be worth it.

And the materia exchange of Mutamix is a joke.
If we could select a materia we want, it would be great and not overpowered.
Bots are flooding the maketplace with loads of materia every day (I know no normal player who sells 200 tier IV materia at once), which is far worse.

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Originally Posted by omfgwtf

would just like to say that crafting in final fantasy has always been random... you should just feel lucky they made it so easy to get your lv to 50. having every player in the game able to make every piece of gear kills the servers economy.. they want it to be ridiculously hard.. its end game final fantasy.

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That's another problem, and the sad thing about it is that it can't be changed anymore.
Getting to 50 is WAY too easy.
It's possible to get your lvl50 crafter without crafting a single item! I mean, WTF?
Using levequests for EXP is nice and increase the reward for delivering HQ items is too.
But being able to just buy these items on the marketplace defeats the purpose.
It's like paying to get carried through Coil 1-5, just alot cheaper.

It's the same thing with the "gate" quests you have to do every 5 or 10 levels (forgot how many there are).
Why is it possible to just buy these items?
They should require the crafter to actually craft them.

I totally agree that being able to level crafters without crafting is completely wrong. same for gathering as well. (I bought my way to the top for fisher after lvl 20)

the whole transmute materia is complete nonsense, which we should of gotten at least the same type of materia we were trading, with a high chance of getting the next tier up when we do it. trading 5 random's to get 1 random is not a good system.

and showing a percentage of success is just funny... its not a deterrence if we need to do it.!!

but like I said I don't mind the rng, you just have to either put in the time or pay your way.

It would be nice if the lottery system was limited to adding the slots. Of course, a bit more control over the outcome would be nice too (no lottery system at all). Losing the materia in the process is a bit too painful.

This is honestly the reason I've kind of given up on crafting for the time being. Materia is crazy expensive on Brynhildr, and Spiritbonding lv50 gear takes forever. I managed to fully meld my Miner AF at a "reasonable" cost, but crafting is literally halted by burning Gil, catalysts and materia$$

I think trying to get a mirror from Levi Ex is more comparable to getting Atma, except I've done 100+ clears and never even SEEN a mirror, while I'm on book 7/9 for my Animus...

As much as it is annoying, it keeps the economy running. People buy equips, meld and gets rid of them.
On the bright side, it wasn't as bad as it could be....in 1.0, say bye bye to your equip when you fail melding.