Dungeons: Make them less linear! FFXIV:ARR doesn't have to be a themepark!

First off I want to start with a complaint, then get into my idea to at least alleviate some of the issues brought up by my complaint.

So lets make another thread about this themepark, it's my main complaint and has become more glaring as Yoshi is still going in this direction.
Not a new complaint, many others have touched on this in other posts.

Now for the most part I think FFXIV is a great game, it has its main & job storylines and decent mechanics and graphics, but after you finish those it's a themepark of end-game dungeons just like any other MMO out there (GW2, AION, RIFT, WoW, etc...)
I get it, casual players like it and this is the direction all MMOs are going because that's where the money is, that's fine. But what about us FF fans who want longevity? When the casual flock of players get bored they will move on to WildStar, ESO or whatever is on the horizon.
But I know a lot of us are here because of FFXI, or just FF and have great memories of FF because they were all magical worlds that had character, soul, experiences and things to explore!
But the current FFXIV as it stands is just a tiny themepark, almost free teleports and easy mobs in the open world don't help either, but that's a complaint for another time.


The first thing that needs to be changed are the dungeons, or at least make new dungeons that are less linear and more unpredictable than the current ones, what do I mean by this?

1. Having more patrolling mobs and super strong mobs that you can barely kill patrol too. This would force people to go around a section sometimes or least take a different route, maybe some sections would branch and you'd pick the route without the scary monster that 1 hits you.
If you do have to fight, in FFXI it was really fun because people learned special sections where it was safer to fight so a patrolling mob didn't crash the party and wipe you, and still it happened, but it was fun!)

2. Trap doors, sections that you need to disarm or know how to bypass, I know there are some special mechanics in the current dungeons but the penalties are not harsh enough (more on this later, see #######)

3. Optional bosses that don't spawn every time (maybe have to go down a different path to get there, so you have to go off the beaten path to check on it)

4. Rare drops from normal mobs off the beaten path! Because why not go down the dead end with pointless normal mobs for the chance of a rare item, maybe hang out in a dungeon and chat with the people you randomly got grouped with? Perhaps they're on the same server or if you're in a pre-made better yet!


Now I know some people will whine about how they can't farm the dungeons anymore (see how badly they ruined Brayflox HM?) but isn't that the whole point? Aren't dungeons meant to be fun and exciting, shouldn't I look forward to going in every time not knowing what adventure it'll be like this time? With these changes you can sort of achieve that.
Also when you die, I know harsh death penalties are a thing of the past, but at least make weakness ACTUALLY weak, so that the dungeon will take 5-10 extra mins to complete.


#######DEATH PENALTY
Ok old topic, but this needs to be addressed, I know modern MMOs have low death penalties and that's ok! I have no issue with the current low gil cost of death, it's an ok compromise, my life is busy too I don't want to go back to exp loss etc...
But what really needs to be fixed is weakness!!! They have it totally opposite, if I raise someone they should have less weakness, if you wipe and everyone has to respawn at the start you should have a way higher weakness penalty that would limit you
from easily clearing normal mobs. It's infuriating the attitude we have now, "oh we screwed up, lets just all die and get 100% HP/stats and come back." I mean if the mobs respawned then yes starting from the beginning would suck, and so you should be back to 100%, but mobs don't respawn
and it's faster to run back to where you died? Wtheck?

Now this weakness should be ONLY A DUNGEON DEATH PENALTY, if you're doing trials or coil, then yea you should respawn with 100% stats. But they can't have 100% HP/stats after a wipe AND no mob respawns AND a shortcut teleport, one or two of these would be ok though.
So either make it so when we wipe we start at the beginning with a REAL DEBUFF and no mob respawns + shortcut teleport, or give us 100%, but force us to fight our way back a bit (maybe teleport part way but not all the way to where we died).

In FFXI when we aggroed too many mobs, or someone died, we'd try to fight to the end because wipes were worse. Instead they have flipped it around and noone tries anymore! Some of the best memories of FFXI I have are when we
fought through 3-5 mob adds when we should have died and at the end everyone was out of mana and barely alive, but we lived and we all really bonded through those moments.

I know these are fundamental changes, so maybe they should just be for some select dungeons, but I for one see no appeal to grinding Brayflox HM for tombs and would be a lot more interested in a dungeon with some variety. In fact if FFXIV continues on the path it is now, it's going to be harder and harder to come back to a world that I have no lasting memories about.

I remember Toto-rak was like that in 1.0. Depending on which door of three you picked you'd get a different boss, though people only ever did the third and hardest to get to door to maximize reward payout. It was a great way to farm seals when you got tired of running caravans. Sadly, if they did add paths to the dungeons you'd still have people just going the route of max reward invalidating the paths in the process.

So you make sure that all the paths obey the laws of equivalent exchange. All the rewards are equally good, but different enough to matter.

Or randomize it, like I said you have a strong mob that could randomly be in any branch so you'd have to scout ahead etc...

Or make it to where all the paths are ultimately necessary to get max reward.

What they really need to do in dungeons is put decent item/ingredient/gear drops on some trash mobs throughout dungeons... or otherwise set some sort of trigger points in the dungeons that requires x, y, and z to be done (in any order you wish) for the best rewards. Maybe even slightly randomize the trash in the dungeons--well, maybe not, because then you'd have SRers who got in, saw the initial spawn, realized it wasn't "Best Spawn," and drop (though the penalty might dissuade people of that some).

Yeah, you'd ultimately still have groups that were designed around clearing it as fast and efficiently as possible, because we live in a world where instant gratification is apparently the most important thing EVAR, but maybe it would change things a little bit.

EDIT: In response to the OP - the fact that you get a death penalty for being raised in the field as opposed to hitting the return button is extremely odd. When I first saw that it was that way, I was totally confused. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

I would love to have less linear dungeons as well. If they implement puzzles or something like that, I would be happy. I remember my reaction when I found the first (and maybe only) puzzle in this game when I did Sunken Temple for the first time. I loved that dungeon so much for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilraen

I remember Toto-rak was like that in 1.0. Depending on which door of three you picked you'd get a different boss, though people only ever did the third and hardest to get to door to maximize reward payout. It was a great way to farm seals when you got tired of running caravans. Sadly, if they did add paths to the dungeons you'd still have people just going the route of max reward invalidating the paths in the process.

---

That can be solved easily.

Any direction gives the same reward. Yet 1 of the 2 rewards will have a slightly higher drop rate.

Example
Boss on left route: Chest 1 has a higher drop rate for tank gear
Boss on the middle: balanced
Boss on the right: Chest 2 has a high drop rate for healers

That doesn't have to be the only route.

Such as additions to hidden rooms with boss fights where chests have drop rates that favor a roles or specific classes/jobs. This simply extends the time spent on the dungeon but it is worthwhile.
Have mini-bosses spread out that buff you or debuff the final boss.

There's a lot of diversity to be had here. Question is the limit of the teams creativity.

To be honest I didn't even read most of the post, I just saw the bitching about themepark MMOs and skipped the rest.

You say the game doesn't *have* to be a themepark, but it *wants* to be a themepark because that's what makes the most money and attracts the most players. I don't understand why people keep throwing around "themepark" like it's a bad thing... they're simply two different styles of game. There's a large population of gamers who want these kinds of MMOs (and clearly, they're larger than the population that wants sandbox MMOs or we'd be seeing more of them), and they are who this game is catering towards. If you want a more sandboxy MMO go play EVE or go wait for Archeage or Black Desert or something. Personally I don't enjoy those kinds of games but I think it's great that they exist for those who do. But frankly this game is not FFXI, it is not trying to be FFXI, it does not want to be FFXI, and it doesn't even really want FFXI's target audience all that much.

It's a casual themepark MMO at its core, and so the dungeons will be designed to fit in with a casual themepark MMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheRogueX

Or make it to where all the paths are ultimately necessary to get max reward.

---

No not so much, that'd just make it predictable as it is now and just adding length to the dungeon, we need multiple paths with the same length - maybe one closed off by a hard mob or just locked off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ninix

It's a casual themepark MMO at its core, and so the dungeons will be designed to fit in with a casual themepark MMO.

---

If you read my post, I'm fine with the themepark, my suggestion is to improve the linearity of dungeons so that even though it's a themepark, at least all the rides aren't the same thing every time. I'd like some unpredictable things to happen, and such, and it doesn't have to be all dungeons. If they want to have some grind dungeons that's fine.

I get where you're coming from. I'm going to mention though, that in practice... well, here's an example: the Binding Coil's Turn 2 lets players go through it in several different ways, adjusting the boss as a result of what the players do. What happens? Everyone takes one specific path, every single time.

Now, if you want to talk "sometimes these bosses are different" or "different mob groups spawn here" or "here's these puzzles that take different solutions each time", sure, I'm totally down for that.

I was thinking it would be cool to have a boss arena with sort of mirrors that can be rotated by interacting with them, and depending where the enemy is you'd have to coordinate with your team to set the mirrors up so an add's big cast gets ping-ponged around and reflected back to the boss, but set them incorrectly and the party gets blown up instead.

But more on topic, it would be interesting to have an alliance-sized raid with each party starting in some randomised section of the map and needing to clear challenges to open up pathways somewhere else on the map that help the other parties advance, where eventually you'd all meet up and do a 24-man big boss.

I'm still eagerly awaiting endgame that will be on par with salvage in XI. Yea the drop rates were bad and usually you were fighting with 18 people for the items that eventually dropped but that was a perfect example of open dungeons. Different bosses with different drops in each direction with no way of going back to the other sides, specific mobs that unlock specific attributes/gear. Even starting out with absolutely no gear at all was a challenge that XIV has come nowhere near replicating yet.

XIV has no variation at all, it's a perfectly straight line MMO where you start at point A and there is 1 path to get to point B. Sure there is 1 alternative route which is longer and involves tomes, but that's not what I would call variation, actually less of seeing as you're stuck at one stage of the path and just get boosted to the end for sticking around long enough!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Litre

4. Rare drops from normal mobs off the beaten path! Because why not go down the dead end with pointless normal mobs for the chance of a rare item, maybe hang out in a dungeon and chat with the people you randomly got grouped with? Perhaps they're on the same server or if you're in a pre-made better yet!

---

Yes please, it would be great to have a reason to fight 'trash' mobs for a chance at a rare useful loot, so I won't get impatient people any more pushing me to skip everything, and when trying to skip everything gets botched they all get very upset and angry. I would love to go back to playing normally and actually defeating all the enemies, which doesn't confuse new players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyriea

XIV has no variation at all, it's a perfectly straight line MMO where you start at point A and there is 1 path to get to point B.

---

And unfortunately that's how most other MMOs are with linear bosses where you just kill the bosses in order, but that doesn't mean FFXIV needs to follow their lead, and yes turn 2 was a good change from the everyday and a step in the right direction, they need more of that - a lot of those lower dungeons when they make a hard mode really need to be more open. It's like how they screwed up FFXIII a bit with the linearity, the best part of all FF games has always been the freedom to explore and not knowing what's around the corner.

For example even if in a dungeon we all dropped through a trap door and got a random set of mobs everytime, that'd be a good break from this linear rollercoaster themepark. But all that means nothing if people can just wipe and try again, this time they know what's underneath the trap door.

What I mean is weakness needs to fixed to incentivize people not to wipe, but instead raise and try to fight it out. If you do wipe you should get hit with a harsher status debuff that lasts longer, so people try harder not to wipe.