Healer DPS :S

So something I've slowly begun to grow accustom to, and actually generally be accepting of, are healers who stick on cleric stance and do a bit of dps. As I've learned with THMs and ARCs, when your party composition are made of mages, you need to employ flash a little bit more frequently, and do the rounds of individual aggro building.

Tonight I had a strange one, though. CNJ using Fluid Aura to knock mob monsters back that I wasn't directly attacking, which drew extra aggro on the CNJ, took the monster out of my immediate access, and meant that if I wanted aggro back I'd have to compensate.

When questioned, the CNJ said that the tactic was akin to Sleep, and helped take the heat off of the tank.

I responded, explaining that it didn't.

* It strips aggro I've established.
* Any interference by other DPS further strips aggro more quickly.
* I can't recover aggro quickly because it's now outside of my vicinity (particularly troublesome in cramped hallways with patrols).
* If CNJ or DPS take the aggro, because they're squishier, they have to stop what they're doing and focus on that, or I have to scramble to recover it.

The CNJ basically claimed that if he wanted to do it, let him. I pointed out it was a bad tactic even still. After that he became snarky, and then basically threatened that if we pressed the issue more he'd stop healing. At that point I left the instance.

Is this a thing? Because it shouldn't be a thing.

I understand that a confident CNJ can manage their damage, but the problem is that it mucks with the party composition in a big way, confuses the other party members, and undermines the tank in more ways than one.

It was particularly frustrating that after being told to stop by both a DPS and the tank (myself) he refused to.

I'll note though, that I didn't scramble to recover monsters all that much. To begin with I just flashed as the monster came back, or shield lobbed. Essentially running interference as the monster bounced around with uncertainty from aggro to aggro. After the explaination I let him have it and watched what happened, and the proof of what I said was in the pudding.

While I love healers who dps when heals aren't needed, fluid aura has its place and that definitely wasn't it.

In a party (imo) it should only be used to knock a mob back to the tank. It's frustrating, especially as a melee dps, when the mob I'm attacking suddenly vanishes ._.

Maybe that particular CNJ will take a hint once more players say pretty much the same thing to them ^^

if he was level-synced he may be a veteran player that was doing a dutyroulette and wanted to make it a little less boring, i'm guilty of it once or twice, otherwise he was just selfish or isn't able to see the game from the tanks POV
fluid aura can atleast be used to finish mobs, avoiding the annoying knockback and still giving free dps on mobs hovering at 10%~ but beside that you are correct in your annoyance, maybe took it a bit far by leaving the instance though, it wasn't the end of the world was it?

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Originally Posted by Suki-

It's frustrating, especially as a melee dps, when the mob I'm attacking suddenly vanishes ._.

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Agree. I main WHM and mostly DPS (when instance allows) in dungies. But I never use Fluid. Never. Not even if there is an opp for it. I just dont think its appropriate. I think of it as a spell for WHMs when they are in danger; alone. Push it back, its bound, cure/regen, recommmence attack....but hey, thats just me.

But in ref above - I am levelling MNK at the mo. I was in a dungie the other day with a WHM who Fluid like it was the latest craze. It was highly irritating. He even ran up to me and the tank (the other was a BLM) and blasted it away from us. WTF??!! He gets aggro, me n tank go to beast, only for it to walk away back to the WHM. He did it loads. I wanted to MNK punch the WHM more than the enemy! lol

There is a time and a place. And randomly, just for DPSness?....No.

My main is WHM and second is PLD. While running PLD the WHM healing the group started using fluid plus sleep on a target. Once i figured out that was what he was doing it was pretty smooth. I have dont use this combo as a WHM but for our group it worked perfectly. Try to be open to new ways other than the "correct" way.

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Originally Posted by sheepysheepy

maybe took it a bit far by leaving the instance though, it wasn't the end of the world was it?

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Golden Rule: Don't play with sour people. Like I said, he threatened to stop healing. That and started getting snarky about it after being told to stop. It was only when he gloated about being able to stop healing that I chose to leave.

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Originally Posted by Mrbojangals

My main is WHM and second is PLD. While running PLD the WHM healing the group started using fluid plus sleep on a target. Once i figured out that was what he was doing it was pretty smooth. I have dont use this combo as a WHM but for our group it worked perfectly. Try to be open to new ways other than the "correct" way.

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Circumstantial correctness had nothing to do with it. It was shown on more than one occasion that the tactic wasn't working. His only justification was "I can take it." But he wasn't recognising the fact that he was negatively impacting on both the DPS and the Tank, even if only marginally. All in all, the gains he felt were made from it were outweighed by the drawbacks on the party, and more, to then refuse to stop despite 2/4 people telling him to

If you can tank mobs in dungeons as a whm then you don't really need to give a damn about taking aggro and using fluid aura.
As long as the dps is still hitting the mob there's nothing to fuss about.
If the tank gets all pissed and stuff then tell them to take a break and sit back and let a whm do your job because you're too busy fussing over with being useless.
Lol someday tanks will be like damnnnnn son that whm ain't that bad.

What i do not get of your story is if he actually sleeped the target he knocked back?

If he actually did sleep them, remember:
- Sleeped targets do not build aggro. If you were on top of the list before sleep, you will still be when it wakes up.
- Dots that have been applied in advance will keep damaging the sleeped target and will not wake it up.

From what I understand it sounds like you overreacted a bit, could have finished the dungeon without major problems or could you not?

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

What i do not get of your story is if he actually sleeped the target he knocked back?

From what I understand it sounds like you overreacted a bit, could have finished the dungeon without major problems or could you not?

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No sleep, just fluid aura.

As for overreacting, like I said, golden rule, and he was going against the opinion of the party and threatened to stop healing altogether.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

If you can tank mobs in dungeons as a whm then you don't really need to give a damn about taking aggro and using fluid aura.
As long as the dps is still hitting the mob there's nothing to fuss about.
If the tank gets all pissed and stuff then tell them to take a break and sit back and let a whm do your job because you're too busy fussing over with being useless.
Lol someday tanks will be like damnnnnn son that whm ain't that bad.

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Uhhh. Okay. No. If the CNJ/WHM took on all of the aggro they'd die in a heartbeat.

CNJ should almost never use Fluid Aura in a party.

Even if you are level synced there is a good chance you are partying with lower level players and it'd be nice for them to get to practice and improve without you farting around and making things more difficult. See also: Relic BRDs pulling crap instead of letting the newbie tank pull.

Knocking things away just makes stuff more difficult on the tank. If you're gonna sleep you should probably do it before you risk pulling hate since slept enemies don't build hate. It's not hard to wait for a flash or overpower before healing once or twice then sleeping.

Im not trying to be contentious. In my opinion I tend to have more fun when the run gets a little crazy and unorthodox. I guess it makes me wake up and i have to pay more attention.

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Originally Posted by Mrbojangals

Im not trying to be contentious. In my opinion I tend to have more fun when the run gets a little crazy and unorthodox. I guess it makes me wake up and i have to pay more attention.

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Yeah but you also have to consider the fact you may be really frustrating someone else who is trying to get used to working new skills into their rotations and such.

I get the feeling though. I queue as SCH instead of WHM for low level roulettes specifically for that reason. If it's a very low level dungeon, I can pretty much DPS the entire time while the fairy heals. If it's a mid-high level dungeon I get to actually play around with SCH and practice it since I am not used to it, which keeps the runs interesting.

Sorry if you get frustrated because i dont fit the playstyle you want.

P.s. I'm playing devil's advocate. I almost always play the traditional WHM and PLD playstyle and receive at least one or two commendations per run. So my group is not frustrated with me. Maybe the reason people like to play with me is that when others are trying new things or heaven forbid make a mistake I roll with it and dont freak out.

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Originally Posted by Mrbojangals

Maybe the reason people like to play with me is that when others are trying new things or heaven forbid make a mistake I roll with it and dont freak out.

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Just to be clear. The topic's scenario was one on a low-level duty roulette with a PUG and a THM. The PUG was a beginner, I was the tank (and am somewhat still a beginner). It was all very amiable to a point. That point being when the CNJ refused to stop and then turned on the party. He was persistently cutting line-of-sight and cutting aggro.

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Originally Posted by vanityobscene

Uhhh. Okay. No. If the CNJ/WHM took on all of the aggro they'd die in a heartbeat.

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You're talking to a WHM that willingly gimps them self with tank accessories because they have a wild fantasy that WHM can tank better then a PLD.

My advice: don't listen to their advice

As for Fluid Aura, I never use it. If I happen to take agro, I run to the tank so they can grab it back without moving an inch while still keeping an eye on HP
But If I'm standing there with nothing better to do, nothing's stopping me from Stone II spam or throwing Aero + Aero II on a mob that's untouched by DPS yet

You will get shield oath at lv40 and circle of scorn at lv50 - two major enmity generating abilities. Still if dps (especially healers) don't watch their enmity (white bars) - they die, not knowing this qualifies them as newbies. Also sleep does not require a knockback.
Also if healer is not standing by your side - you have to come and stand close, so you don't have to run after every loose add. And healers have special mechanics that suppose to be near the tank. Healer standing far = newbie healer (not going to elaborate this, l2p).

I don't think the OP overreacted by leaving the instance.
He took the high road (so to speak) when the whm in question got all holier than thou, at least that's what I got from the OP.
In my opinion, walking away was the best thing he could have done in that situation. Getting into an argument would have only served to frustrate him more and possibly ruin his night.

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Originally Posted by vanityobscene

Uhhh. Okay. No. If the CNJ/WHM took on all of the aggro they'd die in a heartbeat.

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Not really if they gear up and have like 5000-6000+ hp then pshhhh you can tank mobs 1 at a time np.
Use stone skin every now and then heal and then holy spam to keep aggro lol.
My hate rotation for whm is cure 3, medica 2 then holy.
All the 50 dungeons r easily tankable as a whm. Bosses too.
Only exceptions are halicanarsus, diabolos, and siren.
But in PS i can easily kite/tank all adds so tht the dps can burn the bosses.
I even throw in some aeros and stone 2s if i have time.
So yes dpsing as a whm is not generally a bad thing, just needs a lot of practice.
It's very plausible as going 1vs1 a dps in pvp is fun ( whm vs dps )
And yes tanking as a whm will not get u killed as bad u think.

You are right about the not oneshot WHM Yumi, but you are advertising to play faulty on purpose, and you are completely undermining the tank role.
If the situation is like the tank is still in practice and you got aggro by accident.. ok.
But even then i would not run a "WHM aggro rotation", i would depending on level use Shroud of the Saints, or Stoneskin myself and try to NOT build more aggro as the sitaution allows.

I can see the tanks hating you when they notice you work against them on purpose.
And you are not making a better tank out of a bad tank by taking his role, rendering him useless.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Not really if they gear up and have like 5000-6000+ hp then pshhhh you can tank mobs 1 at a time np.
Use stone skin every now and then heal and then holy spam to keep aggro lol.
My hate rotation for whm is cure 3, medica 2 then holy.
All the 50 dungeons r easily tankable as a whm. Bosses too.
Only exceptions are halicanarsus, diabolos, and siren.
But in PS i can easily kite/tank all adds so tht the dps can burn the bosses.
I even throw in some aeros and stone 2s if i have time.
So yes dpsing as a whm is not generally a bad thing, just needs a lot of practice.
It's very plausible as going 1vs1 a dps in pvp is fun ( whm vs dps )
And yes tanking as a whm will not get u killed as bad u think.

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You're talking about endgame in the New Player Help area, on a topic that was about a Low-level Duty Roulette.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

You are right about the not oneshot WHM Yumi, but you are advertising to play faulty on purpose, and you are completely undermining the tank role.
If the situation is like the tank is still in practice and you got aggro by accident.. ok.
But even then i would not run a "WHM aggro rotation", i would depending on level use Shroud of the Saints, or Stoneskin myself and try to NOT build more aggro as the sitaution allows.

I can see the tanks hating you when they notice you work against them on purpose.
And you are not making a better tank out of a bad tank by taking his role, rendering him useless.

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What I don't understand is why anyone would actually want to do this outside of their own preformed parties. On a roulette this seems to be an obnoxious build with the sole purpose of being a butt-head to your tank. If you're working with people you know, I'm sure it'd be different.

Having said that, she seems to get a kick out of it. So eh.

Well, healer can help dps but they pale against dps classes. Imho dps healer just burns mana that can be better used on its job. Not to mention, it may happen he goes in cooldown just when a quick heal is needed but he can't, due the right now dps skill casted.

Fluid Aura is a nice tool but it has to be used tactically. Great for getting the final hit on a mob since the knock back won't matter and it's fun to watch a corpse fly across the map. I prefer to use it on the final mob of a chain so the mob has time to travel back to the tank after they unbind (use after initial AoE hate is established). I tend to make sure the mob runs back towards the tanks front arc too so they can keep parrying and blocking. Alternatively, make explicit use of it on mobs that can't be knocked back for free DPS.

Overall, just sounds like you had to deal with an abrasive healer. Sucks that it happened.

I would put the fluid use in the same categorie as the tank spinning mobs around when there is melee DPS in the group and a bard kiting mobs around a room making the tank and melee DPS run around in circles.