How does Ot work for palidens

We'll I started doing end game with my paliden, and every group that i've been in the other tank always tanked the mob. Even at ilvl 76 I'm still undergeared compared to all the other tanks I get in DF, and that's with the HM's....

Well anyways, what's the optimal rotation for OT palidens? Should I be using a different gear set compared to normal? What gear is for OT tanking, just the accessory side, or do both sides have gear I need to switch?

Really new to OT, and could really use some tips on it.

There are only a hand full of fights were it could make a slight difference if you exchange your vit accessoirs with str ones.
Most encounters are designed for the second tank to have a least partially something to tank.

I personally don't switch anything.
Even without Shield Oath, when equipped with Str Accessoirs, your Halone Combo tends to build up aggro fast (like really crazy fast!) to a point you have to actually stop damage - so that gear change is wasted at this point, while the damage benefit is rather underwhelming.

Because PLD only has one full combo.... Sword Oath + Rage of Halone combo. Fight or flight adds a good deal additional damage, but you should be wary of using it if you're right behind the mt in threat.

As for gear: for two tank content that only requires one, fights like Ifrit HM, Titan HM, and certain parts of CT (but not all), you could go full STR accessory to help damage but most body pieces are still going to limit you to only tank gear. Pieces that are "Disciple of war" (which stop appearing at about ilv60) aren't going to have as much STR than higher level tank gear , i80+, and any off stats gained would be hard pressed to outperform the additional STR, AND the tank pieces will also have damaging secondary stats since the only tank-exclusive secondary stat is parry. Any content where the OT has a particular role, Garuda HM, Garuda EM, other parts of CT, Castrum, etc. you should still go with tank gear because you'll actually have something to tank. Crafted accessories is a more complex deal (I'm mostly talking about dungeon and and tome gear), and I can't give advice on that besides put materia on them.

The biggest issue is fights like Ifrit HM and Titan HM where the second tank has nothing to do, which is why often in PF they only ask for one. In those cases, You will generally not get shield swipe procs, and the Riot Blade combo does quite inferior damage to the RoH combo. If you're so close behind the MT in threat that you're worried about pulling threat with RoH, (assuming you are in sword oath) why is the other person MT? WAR has useful non-threat combos, but should easily be ahead if in defiance.

tl;dr sword oath + rage of halone combo, same gear unless you're not actually tanking.

^^: Sword Oath+RoH

Once you start to bump up against the MT's threat (this will and should happen, especially with a WAR MT, and there is nothing wrong with that if you are geared the same), I would toss around some Stone Skins on healers and the MT, replenish some mana with RB, then back to RoH combo. This should give you back TP and give the healers some slack. Also - use Flash to blind the target if you don't have a SMN doing that already - it helps with the DMG the main tank is taking - just keep in mind Flash produces just a little less enmity that a combo'ed Savage Blade (SB=600, Flash=495)

Make sure you keep the RoH debuff up, and use SW/CoS on CD, preferably use CoS right before there is a jump or an immunity, as DoTs will tick on a boss even if they are not targetable.

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Originally Posted by lyndwyrm

If you're so close behind the MT in threat that you're worried about pulling threat with RoH, (assuming you are in sword oath) why is the other person MT? WAR has useful non-threat combos, but should easily be ahead if in defiance.

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I play both tanks frequently and from my observations this is not true.

Zealous pala on SwordOath with with comparable gear, espacially with Fight or Flight at the start of the fight, is likely to steal your threat if you do not recognize this and pop unchained+berserk.

At i76 keep doing what you are doing. Keep sword oath up and go to town.

As your gear progresses you will want a true OT set with STR accessories. Then you can swap things around depending on the fight.

To help with tanking:

• Only Use Rage of Halone after MT has built up enough hate. Keep the debuff from this combo up all the time (i.e. must do this combo at least once every 20s)
• If you have a lvl 34 CNJ. Get Stone Skin to cast on your MT, then rotate in one or two Riot Blade combos to cover the MP cost.
• Use Flash to blind the mobs (or even some bosses) every 30-40 seconds.
• Even though Shield Bash is not off GCD like other stun abilities, you can use it as often as you like. In a large mob, you can keep switching target and stun everything before going back to your normal rotation.
• Pop Awareness and/or Bulkwark (even better if you already have Stone Skin on yourself) then immediately use Cover on MT to mitigate some physical damage for your MT. Then keep reapplying Stone Skin on yourself till the effect wears off.
• If you see your MT at very low HP (esp. when one healer has died or low on MP), immediately Provoke the boss then switch on Shield Oath and pop a few defensivecooldowns (you might want to alert the party that you're taking over. Best practice is using macro to say so in party chat as you use Provoke). After this you may want to MT for awhile till the other Tank's HP has gone up and some of his defensive cooldowns are available again.

To help with DPS:

• Stay in Sword Oath and only switch to Shield Oath just before tank swap (to max your DPS and reduce the the chance of your stealing argo).
• Spirits Within does tons of damage and can be used off GCD. Can also be used to interrupt spells (not skills though) and doesn't build resist like stun abilities.
• Circle of Scorn also does tons of damage and off GCD. Use it as often as you can.
• If you have a lvl 26 MRD. Get Mercy Stroke to increase your DPS.

I don't know about the rest of you..but as a warrior tank I've never had a problem holding hate even with a overzealous Paladin OT.

Chances are i suck at WAR and excel at GLD. :cool:

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Originally Posted by ChestyBear

[*] If you have a lvl 34 CNJ. Get Stone Skin to cast on your MT, then rotate in one or two Riot Blade combos to cover the MP cost.[/LIST]

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Excellent tips, but you wanna fix that level

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

^^: Sword Oath+RoH

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Don't forget:

When you creep up on the aggro, you should do Fast Blade --> Riot Blade.

Sword Oath + RoH works. I don't advise doing it at the start of the fight. start off with CoS and Spirits Within. Then a FB +RB. Then RoH Combo, casting stoneskin do drop off the aug table a bit.

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Originally Posted by Nabian

I don't know about the rest of you..but as a warrior tank I've never had a problem holding hate even with a overzealous Paladin OT.

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Equally geared PLD OT that stays in Shield Oath and keeps spamming Rage of Halone? They can can easily steal your Argo especially when you try to rotate in some Storm's Path and Storm's Eye. OTs that keep stealing argo are also bad ones (for not watching the argo meters and not using other abilities to help with dmg mitigation).

I often get my argo stolen by healers early in Titan HM when a few people get hit right off the bat and healer has to Medica II which puts regen on everyone. The lesson is, if your DPS fuck shit up, healers has to pull more hate and tank has to spam Overpower and Flash to compensate.

If the MT is a WAR, watch his buffs carefully. Thrill of Battle makes Stoneskin eat up a LOT of damage, especially if the WAR is awesome and uses a Vit potion beforehand.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Chances are i suck at WAR and excel at GLD. :cool:


Excellent tips, but you wanna fix that level

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Thanks :P I've just fixed it.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Chances are i suck at WAR and excel at GLD. :cool:


Excellent tips, but you wanna fix that level

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IIRC SS costs 399 mp and at level 50 Riot blade recovers 133 (so if the numbers are right it should take 3 RBs to recoup MP).

Does ROH debuff stack from 2 PLDs? if it does, then consider this:

RoH debuff is up. --> stone skin (-2.5) --> fast blade (-2.5) --> riot blade (-2.5) [+133MP] --> fast blade (-2.5) --> riot blade (-2.5) [+133MP] --> fast blade (-2.5) --> savage blade (-2.5) --> Rage of Halone.

With this you will only net lose 133mp per Debuff Cycle. Not that it really means anything, but just felt like pointing that out. Also, if RoH doesn't stack, then meh /sadface

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

IIRC SS costs 399 mp and at level 50 Riot blade recovers 133 (so if the numbers are right it should take 3 RBs to recoup MP).

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Don't forget that you will have to do other things, too. Plus, by the time you get 2 Riot Blades and 1 Rage of Halone in (to reapply the debuff) , the MP would regen itself back to full.

Rage of Halone from 2 PLD doesn't stack.
WARs Storm combos i.e. do not stack either.

Every additional application will only make it start anew.

Storm's Path (WAR - lowers the target's damage dealt by 10%) and Rage of Halone compliment each other.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

Don't forget:

When you creep up on the aggro, you should do Fast Blade --> Riot Blade.

Sword Oath + RoH works. I don't advise doing it at the start of the fight. start off with CoS and Spirits Within. Then a FB +RB. Then RoH Combo, casting stoneskin do drop off the aug table a bit.

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If you read the rest of my post besides that one line, you'd see that you are repeating information.

- Don't use RB if you have full mana, cast a stoneskin or two so the regen isn't wasted (unless you MUST put DPS on the mob without taking aggro)
- Don't use CoS>SW>FB>RB | Use FB > CoS > SW > RB if you are going to do that, you are wasting ticks on your GCD by using 2 OCDs in a row
- Also, I'd recommend STARTING with Stone Skin on MT, then RoH, then SS, then RB, etc. That way MT has 2 or 3 GCDs on you and should have no problem holding hate over you first RoH to put the debuff on.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

IIRC SS costs 399 mp and at level 50 Riot blade recovers 133 (so if the numbers are right it should take 3 RBs to recoup MP).

Does ROH debuff stack from 2 PLDs? if it does, then consider this:

RoH debuff is up. --> stone skin (-2.5) --> fast blade (-2.5) --> riot blade (-2.5) [+133MP] --> fast blade (-2.5) --> riot blade (-2.5) [+133MP] --> fast blade (-2.5) --> savage blade (-2.5) --> Rage of Halone.

With this you will only net lose 133mp per Debuff Cycle. Not that it really means anything, but just felt like pointing that out. Also, if RoH doesn't stack, then meh /sadface

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RoH doesn't stack, that would be crazy. Also I think Stone Skin is in the high 200s for a level 50? It also has a cast time longer than a single GCD tick, in addition, blindly casting and locking a rotation doesn't work well on PLD - MNK BLM and SMN have a really easy static rot that will maximize dps, but a PLD is more like a priority list (similar to BRD) to maximize their effectiveness, which includes watching healer hp, dps hp, MT hp, own hp, enmity, own mp, watching for burn phases, preparing for tank swaps, preparing to pick up adds.

admittedly i didn't read your post and I might have quoted the wrong person for the first one, so, my mistake ^^.

Also, the rotation I was talking about before was purely for a situation where u are damaging the enemy like Titan HM where u have no need to actually tank anything (I already understand how infrequent those situations are and thus the pointlessness of what I posted :p )

I rarely OT as my lack of knowledge on the subject would indicate >< just wanted to contribute some useful things I've done along the way.

I play WAR, so YMMV:
If you don't have to tank at all, like in titan/iffy go with strength accessories and sword oath (and if you're i90 on the left side do it regardless of MT status). More DPS only helps. As long as you're not in shield oath another tank in tank-stance (and similar/better gear) is going to readily outpace your enmity as the fight goes on. Though you should watch out toward the beginning of the fight.
In garuda as OT...the damage is low enough to do some strength, at least. Plus strength accessories will help you build hate faster on the add. The added strength is pretty significant at 10 or more per slot!

In tank swap fights just change to Sword Oath and you wont pull hate and you can do more damage. Than change stance when required.

As OT you still have to Tank stuff just not the main bosses, so it works just like a normal tank.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

I play both tanks frequently and from my observations this is not true.

Zealous pala on SwordOath with with comparable gear, espacially with Fight or Flight at the start of the fight, is likely to steal your threat if you do not recognize this and pop unchained+berserk.

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Hence my comment about being wary when using fight or flight.

As WAR, I normally open with either or both Unchained + Beserk anyways so that I can more quickly get into storm's eye/path without losing hate. I should admit though, I generally play warrior if I'm tanking and have only once had a pally in shield oath so close behind me in threat that I was concerned about losing it, so I can't say I see this terribly often.

Just wow.... There are ABSOLUTLY ZERO Situations where a Warrior will lose threat to a Paladin in Sword Oath, Unless Sword Oath bugged out.
People need to stop being bad at warrior while giving advice to new players.
Seriously, if you ever LOSE THREAT in any situation other than some DPS Critting before you use Skull Sunder, Than you have absolutely no business telling other warriors how to play.

Warrior Opener: Tomahawk-Infuriate->Heavy Swing-Unchained-Berserk->Skull Sunder-Brutal Swing->Butchers Block->Heavy Swing->Skull Sunder-> Butchers Block
Then just Rotate through Storms Path, and Storms Eye over and over Until you see your Off tank at 95% of your enmity.

This will hold enmity over a Paladin in Sword Oath, with Fight or Flight active. (I play BOTH classes very successfully, and this holds true every time.)

Early in the game, I think 2.0, I found myself ripping threat from warriors with Sword Oath. That shouldn't be the case now.

If you're tank swapping, remember that Provoke only puts you at the top of the threat meter.... So if the mob hasn't gotten to the warrior yet and you just went to the OT position, there is a chance that you may rip threat if you start doing your combo before the warrior can get his/her hands on it. Just play smart.

And of course, watch your threat meter. As pointed out earlier, you can just use Riot Blade. Otherwise ending at savage blade and going back to fast blade doesn't do too much enmity wise.

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Originally Posted by Shadaki

Early in the game, I think 2.0, I found myself ripping threat from warriors with Sword Oath. That shouldn't be the case now.

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Right after 2.1 was released, there was a bug in which, if you switched straight from ShO to SwO, you retained the 2x enmity modifier from ShO. Pre-2.1, ShO and Defiance both had substantially lower enmity modifiers (I believe that the general belief was something around 1.5x), which meant that, with the extra damage from SwO and the damage penalty from the stances, tank stances only had a marginal improvement in enmity generation compared to SwO.