Overpower vs Steel Cyclone

how come people keep telling me Overpower induces more Enmity then Steel Cyclone?

this is illogical to me. :confused::confused::confused:




is it true though? which one causes more Enmity? anyone?

I would imagine steel cyclone.....but honestly using one flash one over power and then steel cyclone should have zero issues holding hate

The skills have different threat multipliers. Overpower uses a x4 multiplier, so threat = damage x 4. Steel Cyclone sadly is on a x1 multiplier, so while the damage is much higher, the resulting threat is lower. Defiance is a 50% threat boost with 25% damage reduce, so the total numbers look something like this:
OP = 120 pot * 0,75 * 4 * 1,5 = 540
SC = 200 pot * 1,5 = 300

* This is assuming that the Threat tables at http://valk.dancing-mad.com/tables/enmity-tables/ are accurate

The last time that enmity table was updated was a very, long time ago. The Steel Cyclone modifier is incorrect as it was boosted in Patch 2.1.

hm. Flash. i stopped using Flash a while ago. it's useful on WAR at lower levels. though it can still be useful at any level to WAR. because it won't interrupt your combo.

however i'm not having any issues holding aggro without it.

besides i can only use like 3 or 4 times. during long fights like at CT it won't be very reliable through the whole fight. and then in typical dungeon runs. the MP doesn't even restore quick enough to consistently use it from one mob to the next. so if you do use Flash on a WAR. i think your best bet is to use it at the right times. times when you need to make hate, but don't want to interrupt your combo. but everyone has a different play style :)

too bad Steel Cyclone isn't an off-GCD action. :P



in any case... i have had more then one person say that Overpower induces more Enmity then Steel Cyclone. this just doesn't seem right to me. people could be trolling. but i had to ask the community to find out. just in case :)

Steel Cyclone does not incur damage penalty from Defiance.. Assuming threat multiplier is the same (x3 or x5) SC is higher potency + no penalty.. But you can pump out OP after OP after OP, unlike SC.

Use both!

Flash.. I still use flash, mostly on T4, because you don't need a target to use it and it can help you save some TP. A lot of times the bard is running ballad so you can flash more than normal.

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Originally Posted by PacAttack

The last time that enmity table was updated was a very, long time ago. The Steel Cyclone modifier is incorrect as it was boosted in Patch 2.1.

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can you re-call if before the 2.1 update if Steel Cyclone stated in the tooltip, "Additional Effect: Increased Enmity"? or something like that.


if not... then i am thinking the multiplier is also now applied to Steel Cyclone. which would certainly cause Steel Cyclone to make more hate then Overpower.

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Originally Posted by PacAttack

The last time that enmity table was updated was a very, long time ago. The Steel Cyclone modifier is incorrect as it was boosted in Patch 2.1.

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Yep. Defiance is now a 2x multiplier, SC has a 3x multiplier, and Overpower has a 3x multiplier. Since the Defiance enmity buff is the same for both, you don't really have to factor it in so the only difference is the 25% damage penalty to Overpower and difference in enmity multipliers.

Overpower: 120 * .75 * 5 = 450 ePot
Steel Cyclone: 200 * 3 = 600 ePot

As such, SC generates more than Overpower in most circumstances; however, Overpower generates more over time since you can spam Overpower whereas the most you can use SC is 4 times per minute (~20 secs to get 5 Wrath and 1 extra from Infuriate), not that you want to do this because Overpower is expensive as hell and SC is completely free. If you use Unchained, Overpower will generate the exact same enmity as SC, though, as I mentioned before, I wouldn't recommend it because Overpower is expensive as hell but SC is basically free (and still does more damage).

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Originally Posted by BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY

can you re-call if before the 2.1 update if Steel Cyclone stated in the tooltip, "Additional Effect: Increased Enmity"? or something like that.


if not... then i am thinking the 4x multiplier is also now applied to Steel Cyclone. which would certainly cause Steel Cyclone to make more hate then Overpower.

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No.. Before 2.0 SC did not increase enmity. This was added when they made other adjustments to Warrior and tank hate generation overall.

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Originally Posted by ManaKeKz

The skills have different threat multipliers. Overpower uses a x4 multiplier, so threat = damage x 4. Steel Cyclone sadly is on a x1 multiplier, so while the damage is much higher, the resulting threat is lower. Defiance is a 50% threat boost with 25% damage reduce, so the total numbers look something like this:
OP = 120 pot * 0,75 * 4 * 1,5 = 540
SC = 200 pot * 1,5 = 300

* This is assuming that the Threat tables at http://valk.dancing-mad.com/tables/enmity-tables/ are accurate

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That was Steel cyclone pre 2.1 when it didn't even have an emnity multiplier, hence x1.

Post 2.1 it gained an Enmity modifier. I've used it several times as an AoE snap aggro and it has worked spectacularly. I'm not sure on its exact number but from experience, it's almost like applying Butchers Block to everything you hit.

Infuriate, Steel Cyclone, Overpower x2. Enmity is now a non-issue.

nice. well alrighty then. thanks everyone for your awesomeness :)

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Originally Posted by BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY

can you re-call if before the 2.1 update if Steel Cyclone stated in the tooltip, "Additional Effect: Increased Enmity"? or something like that.

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It did not. Pre-2.1, SC was just pure damage. If you don't believe me, go check the 2.1 patch notes. It explicitly says "Now generates increased enmity".

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if not... then i am thinking the 4x multiplier is also now applied to Steel Cyclone. which would certainly cause Steel Cyclone to make more hate then Overpower.

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Overpower's enmity generation was also increased in 2.1 (check the patch notes).

As to the enmity modifiers, those are a known quantity because the enmity generated on enemies you're in combat with is stored clientside so the parsers (which hook into the game's memory) can find the explicit amount gained with a given attack. Since you can also see the damage, it's simple arithmetic to figure out what the multipliers are.

yeah. i seen that in the 2.1 notes. which is why i asked about the tooltip. though i did not look for Overpower in the patch notes.

I was thinking that SC performed way better than my numbers suggested, apparently my info was way outdated - thanks for clarifying that ^.^

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

I'm not sure on its exact number but from experience, it's almost like applying Butchers Block to everything you hit.

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BB has a 5x enmity modifier and does 280 potency, which is 1400 potency, without factoring in Defiance. If you want to factor it in, it's 2100 (do the same for SC and you get 1200) so it's a helluva lot more than SC. It would be more accurate to say that it's like getting slightly less than a Skull Sunder crit on everything around you (Skull Sunder is 200 * 3 * .75 * 2 = 900; crit is 50% more, which is 1350).

So far, and I'm only 48 so take this with a grain of salt, I've found OP more than sufficient to hold mobs in everything I've done. I'll usually toss one down between full rotations which is sufficient so far to allow me to not to have rotate through mobs yet. I'm sure this will change as things go on but I pretty much always save a full Wrath stack for IB. And I don't even have Flash as one of my additionals. Again though, I'm sure that will change as I go on and the fights get bigger with multiple mobs that need to grabbed/held.

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Originally Posted by Cap75

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i have a lot of fun playing WAR. and constantly gain new experience with it. there are many new things a WAR can try. whereas in my experiences of playing not only AS but also WITH other PLD's. it seems that the approach for a PLD is very linear and basic for any player. while again, the WAR is more versatile. allowing for more variety.


HOWEVER... the game is still early. and i suspect what WAR can do with actions. a PLD will be able to do with stats.

like you could make a STR PLD. you could make a DEX PLD. so both jobs offer alternate routes of progression and play style. the differences may just not be very apparent at this stage in the game.

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Originally Posted by BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY

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I'm really enjoying WAR too. There's quite a few subtleties I keep learning. I've tanked Garuda story 3 nights in a row to get friends past it and by the third time I had my defensive cool downs in a nice rhythm, my anticipation of when to pop a burst damage into IB rotation was spot on, and I could notice how much less I needed heals. Drastically different from the first time.

given the increased threat of tanks since 2.1. I think having a 360 aoe that grabs threat and does dmg is great. Overpower is great for the initial pull since the enemies will be in front of you but I almost always use flash or SC to keep it.

Not 100% certain on things nowadays, but the following is my impression and it's probably right:

In terms of pure agro: Steel Cyclone > Overpower > Flash

Flash and Steel Cyclone both are circle effects centered on you. Great for using while moving. Or when you need that agro *NOW* for a new add. Or when there are targets both in front and behind you. (Compared to Overpower where you have to target and face)

Flash gives you something to do while under pacification from Berserk, or when out of TP.

Overpower is like the "bread n butter" area attack though: repeatable damage & agro. I like going Berserk + Bloodbath + overpower spam. Mix in a Steel Cyclone or Unchained perhaps.

Also, when agro'ing newly spawned adds and positioning them, I like to go Tomahawk then Overpower because Overpower has a longer range than melee and relatively high agro amount (way better than a 2nd Tomahawk). Example: Dancers in t7.

And for those who said Steel Cyclone is free... it costs you a crit buff and the opportunity to use Inner Beast/Unchained. A cost worth paying perhaps, but not free.

People say overpower is more enmity if you include Unchained.

Unchained -> Overpower = 120 * 5 = 600
Steel Cyclone = 200 * 3 = 600

So for the first GCD they will have equivalent enmity, but starting from the second overpower.

Unchained -> Overpower -> Overpower = 1200
Steel Cyclone -> Overpower = 600 + 450 = 1050

You can obviously Steel Cyclone -> Infuriate -> Steel Cyclone = 1200 but you will fall behind on the third GCD.

Unchained has a 120 second CD so you can't do this all the time, and honestly either way will hold aggro on anything but if you absolutely need to maximize enmity, unchained -> overpower is the way to go.

edit: it is worth noting you do not need to target anything for steel cyclone which might let you start building enmity much earlier and has the ability to target mobs behind you.

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Originally Posted by enil

edit: it is worth noting you do not need to target anything for steel cyclone which might let you start building enmity much earlier and has the ability to target mobs behind you.

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It's also worth nothing that Overpower costs an arm and a leg and every GCD you spend on it is another GCD you're not generating more Wrath. Unchained>Overpower spam is going to completely trash your TP pool whereas SC>Infuriate>SC will actually end up increasing your TP. It's a lot harder to recover from Overpower's effect upon your TP bar than it is to get back 5 Wrath (you regenerate 60 TP every 3 seconds which is 50/GCD; Overpower costs 130, which means that, to recover the TP consumed, you have to leave 1.6 GCDs empty).

I want to know who told OP that overpower> steel cyclone. like wut.. Granted, Overpower is 2nd on Overall enmity producers.

There really isn't anything to debate. Use both as needed to keep threat, manage inc. damage (IB), and not TP starve yourself. It isn't one or the other, it is *which is best for my current situation*.

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Originally Posted by BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY

i have a lot of fun playing WAR. and constantly gain new experience with it. there are many new things a WAR can try. whereas in my experiences of playing not only AS but also WITH other PLD's. it seems that the approach for a PLD is very linear and basic for any player. while again, the WAR is more versatile. allowing for more variety.

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I have a warrior and got to say once hitting 50 the interest in tanking with it dropped to zero because it just feels like the class has to many abilities and is really hard to learn. I'm also told that it takes far longer to properly learn to tank on a warrior then it does on a paladin. It's probably because paladins abilities are more stream lined and not really all over the place like the warrior.

I would also like to add once I saw steel cyclone on wrath then I also just lost interest all together as paladin doesn't have such weird restrictions on its enmity generating abilities which makes it easier to learn to tank with and that just makes everyone gravitate towards paladin over warrior.

I don't understand why developers have the need to make one class really complicated to learn over another. I hope at some point in the future they clean up the warriors abilities and make it just as easy to learn as paladin is to learn.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

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Then roll a PLD? WAR isn't difficult. If you think WAR is complicated then you'd hate PGL and/or DRG. To make WAR play simple, leave Unchained and Steel Cyclone alone and only spam BB combo. There, you're now a gimped PLD. You just want two PLD jobs vs actual variety.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

I don't understand why developers have the need to make one class really complicated to learn over another. I hope at some point in the future they clean up the warriors abilities and make it just as easy to learn as paladin is to learn.

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Because some people prefer a class with nuance as opposed to a mind numbingly simple one. If you want a simple tank that requires next to no forethought, play PLD. You're not being forced to play a WAR.

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Originally Posted by Vactus

Then roll a PLD? WAR isn't difficult. If you think WAR is complicated then you'd hate PGL and/or DRG. To make WAR play simple, leave Unchained and Steel Cyclone alone and only spam BB combo. There, you're now a gimped PLD. You just want two PLD jobs vs actual variety.

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Hate monk? I've been playing melee DPS for so long that this is not hard to play class at all. I find monk and summoner to be a pretty easy jobs to learn maybe its just experience in these roles from WoW(I played before they made the entire game a joke) because I played a rogue and warlock so I just have tons of experience with complex classes from that angle.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Because some people prefer a class with nuance as opposed to a mind numbingly simple one. If you want a simple tank that requires next to no forethought, play PLD. You're not being forced to play a WAR.

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I never thought to use the controller but going to give it a shot and see how well I do with it maybe that will solve my to many buttons problem for me and also it will be nice to sit back in the chair too. I guess I jumped the gun a little to fast heh oh well live and learn.

Does anyone know if its possible to make a marking macro for marking the targets in order? Like it automatically will pick the next target and mark it and so forth.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

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well i think you can. but i forget the regular command for the target. i think maybe /targetnext and /targetprevious.

but you can always look in a game manual or something. the manual has all the commands you can use.

either way, those targeting commands are not good in a macro. just IMO. i would imagine there is a command to target only aggro'ed enemies.


it would be nice to see a command to target the letter each enemy is assigned to.



other then that... i prefer to cycle the targets and mark them myself. though some people never learned how to count >_> lol