How to fix the sidequests...

Alright.

Let's be honest.

There were three types of quests in ffxi:

1. The frustrating just not worth it quests. (I'm looking at you "This smooth stone is not the right weight.") If you did the quest at all it was a learning experience and you vowed to avoid it in the future.

2. The reward might be worth it quests. Usually these were the ones for gil, or for basic items. (most popular being: Tiger fangs for gil, ones that let you spam fame, and every so often there was a basic item worth the quest)

3. The reward was mandatory quests. I don't even have to give examples of these, but I will anyway: the subjob quests, advanced job quests, rse, etc. Please note that unlike the type 2 quests the type 3 quests changed the way you played the game.

Keep in mind that from ffxi to ffxiv quests are to sidequests as missions are to quests.

So here are 5 ideas to help fix the sidequests which are not very playable in their current capacity.

1. Give back the xp/sp. The xp of killing mobs while doing random quests should be at least equivalent to the xp of a mob killed while grinding. A game should never ask a player to sacrifice xp for plot. Especially when the item rewards to not equal such sacrifice, which leads to suggestion 2.

2. Upgrade the rewards. In all realism this won't happen until after the battle system and job system readjustments, but these would be suitable items that would more than make a quest worthwhile before the type 3 quests were available:

1. A one shot anima refresh item (unique)
2. A one shot repair item (unique)
3. A one shot haste item (unique)
4. Guild Marks
5. A one shot "facilities" item (unique) (would give woodyard or equiv type use)
6. An xp/sp boost item (reusable or oneshot) (unique)
7. Anything that made the PC themself more customizable (a chance to recolor an item they have)

3. The addition of a mog house type space would create the opportunity to create furniture and such which would be a fun side pursuit.

4. The fame system has been done (although it is an idea) and so has titles.

5. A completionist log. Something that said you have completed 6 out of 1800 logs. With extras for getting so far along such as Yoshi P's armor artwork, or soundtrack access. This would have people questing just for the extras.

Anyway. I believe the type three quests are coming and as long as they have a decent storyline everything will be on track. So Yoshi-P keep cracking on the battle system so we can get our awesome quests soon.

anima refresh would be awesome for repeatable quests.

Here's some of my ideas!


Quests and side quests
-Kudos for making it easy to find that NPC and area you have to go for the goal. Sure, for some it takes a bit of fun and realism out....but face it, there's a ton of sites out there that list what to do and where to go and this keeps it in-game w/o having to surf for the answers and destinations.
-COUNTERPOINT There's not enough quests to keep players happy (I know it's still kind of in a test phase). The rewards are also kind of.....too little too late. Getting a level 10 robe would have been nice a loooong time ago, not so much now. Maybe throw in bonus EXP/SP if you do the quest at a certain level range....or add the ability to restrict your level to one where the quest would be a challenge. Right now, I'm doing quests just because I can....out of boredom for an item I'll probably NPC after earning. How about adding some Key Item rewards? Like some lucky trinket that's just in your Key Item box, not taking up space, just a little boost in some small way?

I love the Anima Refresh idea as a reward.

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Originally Posted by deekapowski

1. Give back the xp/sp. The xp of killing mobs while doing random quests should be at least equivalent to the xp of a mob killed while grinding. A game should never ask a player to sacrifice xp for plot. Especially when the item rewards to not equal such sacrifice, which leads to suggestion 2.

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You give absolutely no explanation for the bolded. A game can and should make it so there are multiple ways to advance your character, and side-content should be considered as such way. The item rewards do not equal the effort for the players with tens of millions of gil, which is how it should be- because the quests should help out lower rank players and those who can not get by with just money alone. You are not the target audience of these quests, and you shouldn't be. They will never get new players if they cater to your type. The reward most definitely equals the effort for those players.

The sidequests need to be made better however, even if it means they will come in smaller amounts. If the quests are of the same quality as quests found in other MMO's (that do give exp), players will make the comparison and be disappointed. Thus the quests need to be better than those found in other MMO's, and be made so that players do them because they're fun, not because CARROT. The game needs quality content, not quantity content.

Betelgeuzah: Your point is moot.

Quests that don't give exp/sp are pointless, you can simply do Leves to get the money to buy the gear they offer AND get SP/EXP. So can new players. Yet another bad decision by SE.

Give SP/XP and quests will be fixed. As SE adds more quests they'll get better UNLESS they continue to NOT offer SP/XP.

/end thread.

There are lots of things quests could provide other than a flat XP/SP reward. Abilities, progression, useful items, fame, etc. "Fixing" quests just involves making them more varied, and having them give something useful.

SP, XP, and gil aren't the only useful things in this game, you know.

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Originally Posted by JakeRoon

Betelgeuzah: Your point is moot.

Quests that don't give exp/sp are pointless, you can simply do Leves to get the money to buy the gear they offer AND get SP/EXP. So can new players. Yet another bad decision by SE.

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Not sure how you can say quests are pointless without exp/sp, I do quests for the story generally, so the point isnt moot at all

Reasons to do a quest:
1) Character progression(EXP/SP etc)
2) Loot (money/gear)
3) Interesting story

The current implementation of "side quests" lacks all but one of those. While the quests and gear rewards make a bit more sense from a new players' perspective, the lack of any sort of exp means very few will find them compelling enough to do. And if you found a couple dull paragraphs of text to be an interesting story, I'm sorry, but no. Just no.

I understand the current producer is in a rush to push out content, but the reality is the people playing the game now matter far less than those who aren't. They shouldn't be pushing out this level of crap to placate the few who hang around in hopes of it getting better soon, and should instead focus on developing content that will be enjoyable for years and whatever overhauls to combat/crafting/etc they have in store.

TL,DR: Quality over quantity.

Boycotting quests until we are given normal sp/exp for the mobs we kill. Current system encourages you to switch to your highest ranked class - one shot all the bad guys and collect reward. If the system awarded normal sp/exp for kills, then participating in the quests at an appropriate rank would be rewarded and make low level quests great for both new players and advanced players leveling a new discipline.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

You give absolutely no explanation for the bolded. A game can and should make it so there are multiple ways to advance your character, and side-content should be considered as such way. The item rewards do not equal the effort for the players with tens of millions of gil, which is how it should be- because the quests should help out lower rank players and those who can not get by with just money alone. You are not the target audience of these quests, and you shouldn't be. They will never get new players if they cater to your type. The reward most definitely equals the effort for those players.

The sidequests need to be made better however, even if it means they will come in smaller amounts. If the quests are of the same quality as quests found in other MMO's (that do give exp), players will make the comparison and be disappointed. Thus the quests need to be better than those found in other MMO's, and be made so that players do them because they're fun, not because CARROT. The game needs quality content, not quantity content.

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I suppose first I should explain the bolded. In my history of rpg gaming, I have never seen a game that simply "turns the xp off" without something to replace it (i.e. fame, some sort of ability upgrade, something of that nature). Example: Blitzball did not give you xp, but it did give you things to strive for that could not be accomplished any other way. Note I'm not advocating giving an xp bonus just because you are on a quest although I know that is a popular notion implemented in many games including WOW. What I am saying is you're having a rank 10 go talk to an npc to kill 8 marmots and get a rank 10 item. That same rank 10 can go do a guildleve and while he is killing the same 8 marmots, make it to rank 11. That's on top of the gil or quite possibly a rank 10 item. FFXI did the same thing that FFXIV is doing, but it never turned off the xp. If you went back after you were high level and got crappy items/xp that was your fault. But to simply say a person must choose between character advancement and flavor text? Or to put it another way, if the actual quests of the main storyline are seen by some to be lackluster (I think they are fine, just short), then why would you add even smaller versions of that and take out any of the benefits that come with it? Much less something as fundamental as xp.

Oh and for the record. I've never had a million gil in all my years of playing ff xi or xiv. I don't follow the crowds like that.

Now to what you're actually saying:

"A game can and should make it so there are multiple ways to advance your character"

Exactly.

"and side content should be considered as such way."

Preach on!

"The item rewards do not equal the effort for the players with tens of millions of gil..."

What? I'm not talking about what you can buy. My point was that a person starting on day one will come across an available quest "let's say a rank 5 quest for a rank 5 item." Now in the time it takes for that person to complete that quest, they could have completed 2 or 3 guildleves made it to rank 6 and with the gil acquired bought said item from the market wards.

Now after reading your second paragraph I think I see what you're getting at. Yes, RPGs do have certain quests that do not actually give you anything, except they have an impact on your character (a title, a CS that shows the ramifications of a choice you made, a hidden character etc.) These things do not effect the game mechanics, but change the way you feel about your character. If the quests were of this nature that would be fine too. I'm certain lots of people would do a quest just for a personal hairstyle or "persue a relationship" with an NPC (it works in Dragon Age and Ar Tonelico right?)

So no, the reward need not be tangible. But it needs to feel like a reward and not a sacrifice. I knew lots of people who would lament when they had to farm (for gil or for mats). The only people I knew to surrender large amounts of time just for cutscenes were bored max level players. And that was for cutscenes not flavor texts.

In simplest terms:

battle guildleve = flavor text + kill X number mobs + receive xp/sp + receive currency and or item.

sidequest = flavor text + questgiver NPC +kill X mobs + receive item - xp/sp

As for the quality vs quantity. You seem to believe I am attacking Yoshi -Ps slow and steady approach. I'm all for quality over quantity. At the same time, FFXIV is a year behind where it should be (assuming that Yoshi-P's plan is completed on the 1 year anniversary of the original CE launch. You could have one quest if you could convince everyone to play it over and over again. Alas, the quests must keep coming to give the new people who don't like grinding and the r50s who are bored something to do.

So in conclusion, "CARROT" is fun. It's fun to progress your character. It's fun to make them unique. It's fun to open up new ways to play the game and it's fun to get an item only if how you got that item was fun. I will even give you it is fun to learn more about the world you are living in if it is done in an exciting way. As it stands, there is not enough difference between a guildleve and a sidequest to justify taking away the xp. And unfortunately there is not enough plot either if it only comes in the form of flavor text.

I agree that the storylines are lackluster, and all it does is fleash out the world enough. But the point of saying all quests are pointless without exp/sp is stupid. If that was the case most people in XI would not have done any quests as most quests make you lose xp not gain it

why not create more questlines, with a good/very good story behind it, maybe with little cs (i rather wait then having the same as every mmo has). And a bigger, better reward in the end, like chosing a good item out of 3-4 to fit your job.

The idea of getting guildmarks is very good, perhaps one could even make guild mini-quests to achieve special actions/attacks/spells?

im not sure if:

battle guildleve = flavor text + kill X number mobs + receive xp/sp + receive currency and or item.

sidequest = flavor text + questgiver NPC +kill X mobs + receive item - xp/sp

will work out. Since that is what makes other mmos boring, so why shouldnt it with ffxiv?

Doin different things for progression is most rewarding (imo). XPing only bores ppl in general, questing only does as well.
Mixing the things keeps things fresh.

Doin something to get abilities (not leves for guildmarks) let the guilds each give special quests (not only the existing missions you see every few - days- weeks -depending on how much you play)

Giving people too many rewards for questing would make crafing far less important, looking at most other mmos it gets completely useless in the end. Keeping the balance there i think is hard.

Rewards have to be something unique, like special abilites (mentioned that already), spells, crafting items, key items etc.
So far all i got was craftable and often not high lvl so - since almost everyone can craft things - sold to npc.

I know its a bit late for that but the fact that you get all your abilites without doin something (but grinding all over again)
just from lvling took away a lot of possible questlines, battles /challenges to acutally GET those for future use.
You don't appreciate it. You're not that happy you finally got an ability (not to mention you dont have to use most of them since the current battle mechanics are flat as can be)... Perhaps there will still be possibilites to implement similar
quest-oriented rewards, for meriting spells, abilites or something like that. Perhaps doin quests to improve special abilites of yours, to customize your job the way you want it the most even.

Rather waiting a bit more (we already did wait pretty long for almost nothing so... )and get a better product in the end then half-done quests.

Quest targets should reward SP, XP and loot -only- to players who have the relevant quest active and objectives incomplete. This way, it cannot be exploited.

What's really missing compared to XI quests:

CUTSCENES, interesting story and fame.

Completing XIV side-quests is as much fun as doing a leve without any sp.

1. Sp/exp from quest mobs
2. Exp/gear rewards
3. Fame used to purchase unique items
4. Fun item rewards : reusable fireworks, unlockable emotes, costumes, color dyes to change gear color on finished items.

Going to sidestep the sp/xp reward thing as to me it doesn't matter if they have it or not.

However I will say that some of you are looking at the rewards from your own personal experience. I don't know if they have any r50 quests yet (If they don't how can they possibly have appropriate rewards for an r50 player?). As for me the first or second quest I did I actually received a useful item for my ~37lnc that was better than the equipment that I was wearing. Now no I don't constantly go around looking to buy better equipment I do it when it seems like my equipment is somewhat out of date but at the time my footwear seemed fairly up to date. However while saying you could just go and do leves and buy that item is correct I could just as easily be doing leves & do that quest at the same time(both quests I did where located near leve locations) and have both my better equipment+flavor text and whatever I got out of doing the leve.

Basically what it boils down to is "I" don't think side quests are broken per-say they just don't exist for high rank (or perhaps those who's only aim is ranking) people to enjoy "yet". Doing nothing but leves all day every day can get pretty tedious for most people these are something to do outside of leves and relieve the monotony that is FFXIV with some character insight and small rewards. Agreed whats there now isn't much but this was only the first wave the next wave will have better/more story, different enemies, and more/different rewards and so forth and so on.

Side bar: As for GM's I don't think side quests will be giving those instead they have quests specifically from the guilds for those and I believe they've already said they're working on implementing more of those.

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Originally Posted by Eruantien

Not sure how you can say quests are pointless without exp/sp, I do quests for the story generally, so the point isnt moot at all

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His point was moot, His point suggested that the quest were there to obtain gear that new players could not afford.

Your point is you like the story on the quests, that's a separate point. One I can appreciate. However; modern games have to offer more than a cute story for the players most players to find quests "doable". If the payout per time invested is seen to be "not worth it" most modern gamers will simply find more efficient uses of their limited play time.

I'm not just making this crap up. I've played dozens of mmo's over the years and know the trends. Anyone that wants to have a discussion about these types of things is always free to call me on skype or whatnot.....perhaps we can put our heads together and come up with some good ideas.

Oh if only the forums had private mail already......

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Originally Posted by JakeRoon

His point was moot, His point suggested that the quest were there to obtain gear that new players could not afford.

Your point is you like the story on the quests, that's a separate point. One I can appreciate. However; modern games have to offer more than a cute story for the players most players to find quests "doable". If the payout per time invested is seen to be "not worth it" most modern gamers will simply find more efficient uses of their limited play time.

I'm not just making this crap up. I've played dozens of mmo's over the years and know the trends. Anyone that wants to have a discussion about these types of things is always free to call me on skype or whatnot.....perhaps we can put our heads together and come up with some good ideas.

Oh if only the forums had private mail already......

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Good luck with that putting your own opinion on a pedestal-thing you've got going on there.

Most people play Final Fantasy games for the story. The only thing with XIV is that there is no interesting story to speak of. No-one of the NPCs stand out because they're not involved in well scripted cutscenes. A game without interesting world or characters gives the player zero reasons to fight for.

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Originally Posted by JakeRoon

Betelgeuzah: Your point is moot.

Quests that don't give exp/sp are pointless, you can simply do Leves to get the money to buy the gear they offer AND get SP/EXP. So can new players. Yet another bad decision by SE.

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MMO Economy 101:

Simply getting money from Leves doesn't mean you can buy the equipment. It depends on the supply and demand. If there is a lot of demand for equipment, the price will go up. At that point, people can't afford the equipment anymore simply just with the money gained from the Leves. On top of the leveling process being as fast as it is, people simply won't bother.

I'd say that your point is moot here. New players will find quests that reward equipment worthwhile. Those with 10 million gil and rank 50 classes... not so much. The quests are designed for those people however.

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But to simply say a person must choose between character advancement and flavor text?

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The person must choose between getting equipment and getting money + exp. And in most cases that's not even true, as you can do 8 leves per 36 hours. You can easily do both.

XI does the same thing XIV is doing, and it turned off the EXP. You were either EXPing, or you were farming money, doing BCNM's and so on. You weren't going to get any EXP if it wasn't a rare exception. It was one or the other.

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What? I'm not talking about what you can buy. My point was that a person starting on day one will come across an available quest "let's say a rank 5 quest for a rank 5 item." Now in the time it takes for that person to complete that quest, they could have completed 2 or 3 guildleves made it to rank 6 and with the gil acquired bought said item from the market wards.

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Then he runs out of leves. Not to mention due to high demand 2-3 leves isn't enough at all. Have you seen how much gil you gain from a rank 1 leve? Not enough to buy anything. You can easily do both.

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Yes, RPGs do have certain quests that do not actually give you anything, except they have an impact on your character

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Equipment. Titles are coming.

Granted, like I said flavor text is not enough if they're not going to give XP or money. The quests need to be of better quality. Both in the story department and the content department.

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At the same time, FFXIV is a year behind where it should be (assuming that Yoshi-P's plan is completed on the 1 year anniversary of the original CE launch. You could have one quest if you could convince everyone to play it over and over again.

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Nobody cares if the 30k or so people playing currently need to play the same quest over and over again. SE should be building the content for the people they want to play, not the people currently playing. To people not playing it's the same whether the game is a year late or not. What matters is what's in the game when they start playing. For most people, that point only comes when SE starts advertising the game again and releases the PS3 version. That's where they should aim for, not the current playerbase.

Okay - if you kill ANYTHING you should get sp/xp. even if it is like 100/200 or even lower. I mean, if you get sp/xp from killing things why should a quest deem the killing un-skillable? I mean, I just want quests like FFXI. You have to bring something back or kill this or do that. but if you killed a mob you got sp/xp depending on your level as if you were grinding. That's really all there is to it. Give the quest mob (if it even has to be a quest mob, can use existing mobs or implement new mobs into the environment.) a level and wala - a challenge to kill for some and easy for others.

oh and of course FFXI-esque style quests. (cutscene of you and npc talking, camera moving around, wall of text, mood setting music or sounds to go with set npc movements/actions)

I'm guessing the reason there is no sp/xp gain from quest mobs is that people might use these purely as sp/xp mobs, thus making it more difficult for others to come along and complete their quests if the target mobs are not available.

Solution: make the quest mobs either instanced or pop mobs (that pop claimed to the person doing the quest). Honestly not sure why they didn't do this in the first place...