Casual player

i dont see anything really funny to do as casual gamer.. Fate gringing ...oh more grinding ...no no not enough grinding do more ill do some duty finder ........... 5 .....10 .....15 ......25.......40 min and im still waiting ....aight back to grinding ....genius now with ATMA "trying to grind XP" .... everything down before i get to it im not QQing its just reality.

that mean "Screw casual"

Oh you look at Party finder "Experienced only or iLvl 88+" how the hell i can get some XP if im stuck in DF ..Hurray i got PT .......10 min later some1 leave cause its not a SR...rinse and repeat

I just want to have fun ...not a second job !

For the first issue, well this is an MMO and this is how stuff works.

For parties, just start your own with your own rules. Pretty sure many feel frustrated with the ridiculous ilvl requirements (lol ilvl 85 for T1), and would love to participate in learning parties.

Be willing to make some sacrifices to attain your goals. Level up a pally and greed on coil gear for your BLM. Get the myth tomes while you're at it to bring your average ilvl up. Use PF at that point.

Now I don't condone these PFs with elitist attitudes, but people as they are, it can't be helped. I saw all this coming with item levels, a lot of people did. It's horrible.

But for now, fill the gap on DF. You'll get instant queues. If you don't want to do that, just make your own PF with a lower ilvl requirement.

i haven't had to wait more than 5 minutes in a DF que since the patch no matter what job I'm on. I guess it depends on the content but it seems easy to jump on and do a few things then log.

I'm as casual as it gets... I've been playing since a week after release and my main is only level 36 on his First (and only) Job. I figure I'll be going after my Relic for the first time around the time when they release the first expansion. lol

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Originally Posted by TheRogueX

I'm as casual as it gets... I've been playing since a week after release and my main is only level 36 on his First (and only) Job. I figure I'll be going after my Relic for the first time around the time when they release the first expansion. lol

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That might be a little too casual man. I at least hop on and do my daily low level DF to level a class (just doing that will get you almost 1 level a day) then log off because no one wants to do anything.

MMOs these days aren't just for you mate. Moving on......

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Originally Posted by Thorauku

MMOs these days aren't just for you mate. Moving on......

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And they were even less so back in the days.

Seriously, they can't make the game that more casual. I kind of think MMORPG just isn't for the OP.

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Originally Posted by Sirweed

I just want to have fun ...not a second job !

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Agrees. unfortunately these mmorpg games today are turning more into a 2nd job then a game to play for fun, partly due to company want you to keep playing so they can make money (but the way they want to keep you playing is done wrong, they make you waste time instead of making fun content), other part is caused by these players that think they are elites, or have lots of time to spend, asking for challenging contents, which can't be done without practice, so ppl doing these only want to play with others that have experience so they don't waste a lot of time.

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Originally Posted by Sarlazzar

Agrees. unfortunately these mmorpg games today are turning more into a 2nd job then a game to play for fun, partly due to company want you to keep playing so they can make money (but the way they want to keep you playing is done wrong, they make you waste time instead of making fun content), other part is caused by these players that think they are elites, or have lots of time to spend, asking for challenging contents, which can't be done without practice, so ppl doing these only want to play with others that have experience so they don't waste a lot of time.

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Everyone wants to have fun. The problem is some people think having fun must involve little to no work at all, which is fine, but not everyone thinks that way. Basically people confuse work with a job. Yes, you work at a job, not something everyone likes to do. But working towards something in a game can be enjoyable to others.

This game is very oriented to casuals. You do not need to be obsessive about gaming, or spend time analyzing every little detail to get ahead. Nor do you even need to spend a lot of time.

You can spend a little time (an hour or less a day), and always move forward. You do not have to know much about the details of the game, and can still level up and get equipment.

That being said, what you refer to are game mechanics. Casual or not, that's how the game is played. It's like saying I don't like having to punch buttons into a controller just right all the time in order to do wrestling moves in Tekken. But... that's how the game is designed to be played ^.^;

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Originally Posted by Thorauku

MMOs these days aren't just for you mate. Moving on......

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And the old ones were? where you could lose a weeks progress by lagging for five seconds or a weapon grind that makes the atmas look like a handout only to lose that weapon because you were either pk'd, killed by mobs or the server had decided you hadn't lagged enough for one day.

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Originally Posted by Ispen

And the old ones were? where you could lose a weeks progress by lagging for five seconds or a weapon grind that makes the atmas look like a handout only to lose that weapon because you were either pk'd, killed by mobs or the server had decided you hadn't lagged enough for one day.

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I didn't mind the 'Sky/NM/HNM/Testimony/Feather/Darksteel Ore' grind back in the day, because doing those activities were fun, and the reward was just the icing on the cake. Okey.. Darksteel Ore was boring >.>;

But I could run sky and dynamis all the time and care not for drops because... the actual activity was fun!

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

But I could run sky and dynamis all the time and care not for drops because... the actual activity was fun!

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So true, but that was because you could bring your entire LS. This game really should have taken ideas from old FFXI endgame.

I am a casual. I don't have much to add except 2.0 was a game I loved playing, but I have no desire to play 2.2. I've pretty much stopped playing except for Thursday nights with my buddies, but I'm not sure how long that will last.

I do not see much rage about the patch on these forums, though. My sub is paid for another 2 months so there is not reason to quit now... But I am curious how many people are thinking, "Well, I guess this really isn't the game for me anymore" and just slink off without saying anything? Maybe everyone is happy and I'm crazy, I don't know... but RNG grinding fates + raid only tier gear pretty much broke the hold FFXIV had over me- which is how my brain handles these sorts of games. Once that spell is broken, it's a hard trip back.

I'm fairly casual (no more than 10 hours a week) and I find the game quite fair. Grinding doesn't bother me because, well, I enjoy it. Sometimes I'll talk to people if I'm FATE grinding and make a new friend or two. It's enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

So true, but that was because you could bring your entire LS. This game really should have taken ideas from old FFXI endgame.

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Quite right, and one of my disappointments with FFXIV (1.0 and 2.0) was the limit on how many people could engage an interesting enemy (Dungeon/NM). I never cared for the artificial limit, and would much prefer to go in with who I want, as what I want, and let us deal with the difficulty/outcome as needed.

Imagine if you could take on Titan with 20 friends.
And all his moves were unpredictable.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Everyone wants to have fun. The problem is some people think having fun must involve little to no work at all, which is fine, but not everyone thinks that way. Basically people confuse work with a job. Yes, you work at a job, not something everyone likes to do. But working towards something in a game can be enjoyable to others.

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the game must be enjoyable to ALL, the content must be reachable to everybody independent of whether you are a casual or a nolifer, it isnt the fault of casuals if you are a no lifer and not the fault of a no lifer if there are casuals...eh?

Is that right that no lifers have access to more content ? no....is that right that casuals can get stuff easy no either...right now though leaving some stuff to RNG is kidn of weird..make it so that the system is right to all..RNG is RNg I agree but some have better luck then others and that is not left o RNG is a proven fact or we would all be millionaires in playing lottery....

I wouldnt mind as a casual to do dungeons or solo dungeons even hard content extra for atmas...with tough fights ..search and etc etc...linked to everything you ahve experienced up to then but no RNG there quantifyable way of getting what you are after, casuals would get it in a longer time surely and no lifers in a faster way..but nothing is left to ....luck.. and that factor of luck has nothing to do with working ...people that are unlucky do work alot but never get it which then frustrates them and in the end makes them leave the game ...you may want that but a company may not...so really making it enjoyable to all shoudl be the goal of a game company..UNLESS advertised for no lifers ? is that the case ?

Just me though

Mei

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

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And that's the thing. They CAN'T make ALL content suit everyone. It's not possible. There are plenty of things I'd do if I was casual, and others I wouldn't. But here's the thing, they obviously can't cater to the "hardcore" player base completely, sucks for some of us, but that's how it is. But they also can't cater to what people on the other end of the spectrum want either. The hardcore group might be a minority, but to a degree, you need those people to keep the game alive.

As a former hardcore player who is now casual, this game is easy as pie and pretty fun to progress in. If you can't manage to progress here and want things to be even easier, MMO's are not for you.

you need BOTH groups to keep a game alive...frankly it doesnt make it enjoyable for me to come online and entire week at end to try an get my FIRST atma that I didnt have yet...after doing it for nearly five days in a row 3h a day, because that is the little time I have, I stopped at week ends to do something else. it is stressing to rush to a fate and arrive late because zilliosn of players have cleared it in what ? 1mn? it annoys me to sit for 5mn doing nothing to make sure that the fate shows and that I will be there and yet do it for 3-4h and get nothing....nothing none...is that right ? no..I dont complain about the hard thing I complain about the RNG thing...make it hard fine, but hard that is quantifyable...here is not RNG is in to play and as I said when you leave it to luck..some have it others dont..and those that dont..isnt their fault ..isnt something they can control..see wht I mean? So on top of being a casual player which everything takes longer, no problem there, you also fight against something on which you have no control.. there is a middle way something that you can do to make a hard content to get and still make it so t hat everybody can see their progress..without having to deal with luck

Mei

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Originally Posted by TheRogueX

I'm as casual as it gets... I've been playing since a week after release and my main is only level 36 on his First (and only) Job. I figure I'll be going after my Relic for the first time around the time when they release the first expansion. lol

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It's nice to see a fellow slow progressor. :P I've been playing since beta 4 and my highest level is only 34! (To be fair though, I started all over again on a new server a couple months ago.) At least we'll never run out of stuff to do. ;)

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

you need BOTH groups to keep a game alive

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But you don't. There are hundreds of games out there. And this game (like all other businesses) can pick a target demography and cater to them. This game could have been the: jRPG with English Port for Players Who Like Challenges. It could have even been FFXI-2 for those who like it. It could have been the FFXIV for people who hate FFXI. It could have been super hard-core-24-hour-NM-camp-1%-drop, or the 5-minute-100%-boost-to-99 game.

They choose to cater to 'everyone', and in the end may be end up making no one happy.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

But you don't. There are hundreds of games out there. And this game (like all other businesses) can pick a target demography and cater to them. This game could have been the: jRPG with English Port for Players Who Like Challenges. It could have even been FFXI-2 for those who like it. It could have been the FFXIV for people who hate FFXI. It could have been super hard-core-24-hour-NM-camp-1%-drop, or the 5-minute-100%-boost-to-99 game.

They choose to cater to 'everyone', and in the end may be end up making no one happy.

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And yet, you do. What would happen if they fully catered to the casual base? The game would be FAR different than it is now, not an easier version of what we have. Basically, not the game they wanted to create. But if you cater to the upper end of gamers, that group is small, and while that group would love it, it won't sustain a game.

In all honesty I see no need to keep up with the majority of players. I roll at my own pace and it keeps me happy. I stopped playing last year and came back as of last week to play more casual now that I have a new born daughter to care for. The only problem with this is I struggle to even find a party for coil turn 1.

You should join or create a casual FC for yourself and others alike, that is what I have done as of today.

Well, they could make this casual by adding a game shop where you could buy endgame gear. But most people misinterpret selling endgame gear as P2W, when in reality it is just selling a shortcut for people with more money than time.

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Originally Posted by ispano

And yet, you do. What would happen if they fully catered to the casual base? The game would be FAR different than it is now, not an easier version of what we have. Basically, not the game they wanted to create. But if you cater to the upper end of gamers, that group is small, and while that group would love it, it won't sustain a game.

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But here I would have to sadly disagree with you. As a business they can choose their target audience:
'Casual' -- then build a game around this target group.
'Upper End' -- then build a game around this target group.

They would then have to manage their budget and costs in line with their target market (as any normal business would do). So for example, they would say:
Casual Market size: 1M people, expected revenue: 120M/year.
Upper End Market size: 200k people, expected revenue: 36M/year

Then they would say: Production Costs:
Production Costs to meet Casual Market & Upkeep: 80M/year
Production Costs to meet Upper End Market & Upkeep: 20M/year (less servers, and less frequent content may be needed to cater to them, and perhaps less flashy graphics).

And so on, until they decide what business model they want. Then they create the game for that model.

What they've done with FFXIV 2.0 is go: Ooh, I would love a game that has this, this and this! Okey... it's made! Yes.. this is how I want the game to be.. okey.. now.. um. Who is the right people to sell this to?

And therein is the 'flaw' if you will.

Now, you don't HAVE to cater to both. You CAN cater to a niche/target demography. You can also try to have mass appeal. This game definitely does not have mass appeal. Which leaves the question: What demography were they targeting?

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

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See, the problem with that last bit, is sure you don't have to cater to both, but by not doing so you have to change the game. If they have a vision of how they want the game, those changes may not fly. Also, I'd say it appeals to plenty based on what I see in game.

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Originally Posted by Malamasala

Well, they could make this casual by adding a game shop where you could buy endgame gear. But most people misinterpret selling endgame gear as P2W, when in reality it is just selling a shortcut for people with more money than time.

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Stop. How is that not P2W?

There is plenty of stuff for both casuals and hardcores. If someone is casual, why are they even trying to grind Atma or hardcore content? If you want to be casual, be casual, don't expect to have/do everything that the hardcores do. That is just unrealistic. I am a fairly casual player, I am not stressing about getting atma., it isn't needed and there are other options. I'll grind on occasion and get my atma later then everyone else and I am fine with that. I can see the discouragement though when a casual player looks at the PF though. "LFM Turn 1, i85 required, must be pro, wipe = kick"

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

But you don't. There are hundreds of games out there. And this game (like all other businesses) can pick a target demography and cater to them. This game could have been the: jRPG with English Port for Players Who Like Challenges. It could have even been FFXI-2 for those who like it. It could have been the FFXIV for people who hate FFXI. It could have been super hard-core-24-hour-NM-camp-1%-drop, or the 5-minute-100%-boost-to-99 game.

They choose to cater to 'everyone', and in the end may be end up making no one happy.

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This is why you're not a game developer.

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Originally Posted by Capita

This is why you're not a game developer.

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Not sure that recognizing there can be many times of games excludes me from that ^^; That being said, this game does not really cater to the 'hard core' crowd (battle mechanics are really really really simple). And now it seems to start to annoy a bit of the 'casual' crowd with the ATMA farming.

It's as if they are a bit confused:
We want the hard core players to work hard to get their Atma.
But we want the battle mechanics to be so simple anyone can do it without thinking.

End result: Mind numbing repetition for 'hard core' players, and annoying repetition for 'casual' players.

If, for example, battle mechanics were very difficult to master and challenging, and merely winning a fight was a daunting but rewarding task then the drop rate could be less annoying with the RNG (the challenge would be in actually winning, not winning 100 times). However, due to very simple battle mechanics there is no challenge (or gating factor) in winning the battle. Therefore it must be the repetition of winning the battle that is the gate.

And therein is a sign of the flawed design (and/or direction). And given the significant number of people who seem to be posting unhappily, it may be a valid point.

I think some players are just playing the wrong genre.


Fate grinding is bad though but grinding in general is what mmos are for the most part.

Sounds like you don't really like MMO's. Aren't they all pretty much jobs now?

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

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You guys have very short memory. When the game came out, "hardcore" people were practically BEGGING for a grind. The smart ones were asking for actual difficult content, and argued that grinding/time played doesn't make you hardcore, but the "hardcore" called them casuals and begged for a grind anyway.

So now we get a mindless grind that takes no skill, and people are complaining?

There's no pleasing everyone. This should solidify that idea. The best course of action is to appeal to multiple demographics because even if you do something a group disapproves of, another group will approve of it. Square's doing a pretty good job at that right now.

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Originally Posted by Capita

The best course of action is to appeal to multiple demographics because even if you do something a group disapproves of, another group will approve of it. Square's doing a pretty good job at that right now.

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Not always the best course. And of course, in appealing to multiple demographics you are of course excluding certain demographics. And one group of demographics that will get excluded from here are those who do like challenging/hard content.

What I do not understand is, given so much super-easy content already here, why did they add the Atma stuff in? It seems an odd contrast.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

Not always the best course. And of course, in appealing to multiple demographics you are of course excluding certain demographics. And one group of demographics that will get excluded from here are those who do like challenging/hard content.

What I do not understand is, given so much super-easy content already here, why did they add the Atma stuff in? It seems an odd contrast.

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I don't see any demographic being excluded here. There are equivalent weapons to be found elsewhere if you don't want to do the Atma grind, or want to put it off until after it's made easier.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

Not sure that recognizing there can be many times of games excludes me from that ^^; That being said, this game does not really cater to the 'hard core' crowd (battle mechanics are really really really simple). And now it seems to start to annoy a bit of the 'casual' crowd with the ATMA farming.

It's as if they are a bit confused:
We want the hard core players to work hard to get their Atma.
But we want the battle mechanics to be so simple anyone can do it without thinking.

End result: Mind numbing repetition for 'hard core' players, and annoying repetition for 'casual' players.

If, for example, battle mechanics were very difficult to master and challenging, and merely winning a fight was a daunting but rewarding task then the drop rate could be less annoying with the RNG (the challenge would be in actually winning, not winning 100 times). However, due to very simple battle mechanics there is no challenge (or gating factor) in winning the battle. Therefore it must be the repetition of winning the battle that is the gate.

And therein is a sign of the flawed design (and/or direction). And given the significant number of people who seem to be posting unhappily, it may be a valid point.

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Out of curiosity, how much time did you spend to beat t6-t8? I wipe a lot, so I don't think it's too easy for me. But if you've spent at least one week of game time (about 8 hours a day) then haven't you got what your money's worth? Most games does not last you that long for 4 bosses, do they? If you're only up to the most high end raiding content, can't you unsub and then come back when the new end game raid is out? I've asked my friend circle, and they all go "wow, this is finely tuned" instead of "man, this is so boring".

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

Stop. How is that not P2W?

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I think what she means is not buying top tier stuff, but like i70-i90 stuff. Good entry level equipment which you could easily earn otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Richiealvian

Out of curiosity, how much time did you spend to beat t6-t8? I wipe a lot, so I don't think it's too easy for me. But if you've spent at least one week of game time (about 8 hours a day) then haven't you got what your money's worth? Most games does not last you that long for 4 bosses, do they? If you're only up to the most high end raiding content, can't you unsub and then come back when the new end game raid is out? I've asked my friend circle, and they all go "wow, this is finely tuned" instead of "man, this is so boring".

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I have not done T6-T8. I keep playing the game.. then sort of giggle at how simple the battle mechanics and equipment optimization is... Then get bored and log off. I'm one of those rare people that is paying for the game but can't be bothered to log in (nor be bothered to try and cancel.. fortunately it doesn't cost much/month). I think I've done maybe 10 hours this year.

I did Garuda -- I noticed it could be 100% done without even looking at the screen.
I did Titan -- I noticed you could dodge all the moves by reading a piece of paper on your screen that tells you what he will do next.
(This is sort of where I lost hope. Coupled with Yoshi saying its supposed to be predictable, my heart sank).

Now I came back to do 2.1/2.2 story... but, it's rather sad... I'm walking around a zone getting attacked, but can't even bother to defend myself. I put down some bombs but don't care about the critters that come out and attack. There's 0 risk, and 0 reason for me to even fight. When they get in my way so I can't see the terrain, I spend a minute to wipe them out.

And I'm a scholar.. I should have been squished walking around like that.

It means the gameplay mechanics have been made so extremely simple and the game made so very simple that it no longer offers any challenge to those who enjoy an in-depth strategic game. Yes, you may say Coil is a totally different thing. But it shouldn't be. Nor should one dungeon be the only place to go for something challenging. Nor will it really be challenging, because the basic premise of the game are battle mechanics that are very simple.

The strategy here is more like checkers, when I would rather play chess.