A primal halted the Empire's advance after Ala Mhigo?

I'm sorry if this has been talked about in another thread, I did try searching but was unsuccessful. :confused: I was just rereading the official website for information on Othard, when I read this:

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In subjugating Ala Mhigo, van Baelsar employed subterfuge to stoke the fires of civil unrest, a masterstroke which led to the nation’s capture without the need for a protracted siege. However, the unanticipated appearance of a primal shortly thereafter prompted the Empire to halt the legion’s advance. The legatus has since remained in Ala Mhigo, where he rules as an imperial viceroy.

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Source: World, threats, The Black Wolf.

Is this misinformation referencing Midgardsormr? I don't think so, as the website also states this:

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In the Year 1562 of the Sixth Astral Era, five years after the invasion of Ala Mhigo, the Garlean Empire finally rose from apparent inactivity to resume its attack on Eorzea. A fleet of airships was deployed to Mor Dhona, led by the massive flagship Agrius.
As the imperial fleet advanced into the skies above Silvertear Lake, the largest inland body of water in Aldenard, it was met with a wholly unexpected sight. Midgardsormr, the dragon deity of the lake, had arisen, summoned by a hand unknown.

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Do we know what primal was summoned near Ala Mhigo?

Was Ramuh summoned by Sylphes.

It's the only known summoning of Ramuh.

Midgardsormr is most definitely NOT the primal, as Fernehawles once said that it's not even a primal to begin with but a dragon king. And as you note in your 2nd quote, Silvertear Skies took place 5 years later. It was when the attack was resumed, not what caused it's halt in the first place.

I don't believe it's Ramuh either. I think the sylph's summoned him in response to the Calamity, not back in 1557. To my knowledge, no existing source has given us any good answers and it remains open question as to which primal it was.

Yeah, I'm not saying Midgardsormr is a primal, my first chain of thought was that it was an error of some kind.

well....ala mhigo is in close proximity to the black shroud.

due to the sylphs being ruled out, the ixal are also beastmen near the black shroud. I'm not versed into ixali history, but they might have summoned garuda because they felt threatened by the garleans.

though its likely that a native beast tribe summoned their own patron demi-god...or a bunch of ala mhigans summoned rhalgr.

That sentence of Gaius' / the Empire's backstory has caused confusion since 2010.

We know that, in 1557, the Garleans took Ala Mhigo. We know that the Garleans spent the next few years solidifying this position, as it was the only foothold they had over the land bridge separating our continents. We know that they deciphered some of the truth behind the legends of Mor Dhona and planned to take it in a preemptive strike, and we know that this was to prevent the beast tribes from learning to summon primals, which would likely both hamper the invasion of the Eorzea and embolden the nations of Othard to summon primals in renewed resistance. And, finally, we know that upon the retreat from the Battle of Silvertear Skies, they sensed something powerful that terrified them.

The Age of Calm was due to futility. Garlemald already needed some time to gather the strength to counter this something, but after the primals began to appear, why bother? There was no hope of victory without a concrete plan of action against the primals (who will just be summoned over and over again utilizing Eorzea's bountiful aetheric resources). They didn't have that plan until Nael promised them Meteor, and after that fell though, they didn't have a plan again until the Ultima weapon as discovered and the Ascians got involved.

If you look at all of that information together, it's possible that the quote you mentioned in the OP was simply crunching all of that into too succinct of a background story. They took Ala Mhigo, then some other stuff important happened, then primals appeared, then some other important stuff happened, then they waited in Ala Mhigo for a while. It's possible that there's nothing strange in that sentence at all. They didn't expect to see primals, they expected to take Mor Dhona's superflow without incident. Or it could be specifically referring to a mysterious anomaly primal appearance. I don't know.

All I know is that when I had the chance to ask about it, the primal's identity was please look forward to it.

I still have no idea. If we were given the answer in 2.0, I overlooked the connection.

Do notice how Gaius considers the Twelve and the primals are the same entities. the Ala mhigans might tried summoning Rhalgr but viewed by Gaius as summmoning one of the primals. Interestingly though, Rhalgr the Breaker symbol is the meteor and the most famous FF creatures which attack include meteor are Behemoths or Bahamuts (flare can be intepreted as meteor too)

Whether or not it was Ramuh who stopped the Garlean advance or not, I DO remember a mention of Ramuh (not by name) being summoned before the events of 1.0. I wish I could remember if it was in one of the missions or if it was just one of the things a sylph floating in the Waking Sands said. It was something along the lines of 'once before we called the primal one and he tainted the hearts of the ones who called him. These ones will not do so again.' But unless someone can provide the text, my memory should be taken with a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by finiteHP

Whether or not it was Ramuh who stopped the Garlean advance or not, I DO remember a mention of Ramuh (not by name) being summoned before the events of 1.0. I wish I could remember if it was in one of the missions or if it was just one of the things a sylph floating in the Waking Sands said. It was something along the lines of 'once before we called the primal one and he tainted the hearts of the ones who called him. These ones will not do so again.' But unless someone can provide the text, my memory should be taken with a grain of salt.

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Not exactly - during the first mission for the Path of the Twelve (Together We Stand), the sylphs indeed mention they will not summon their Primal, but they never mentioned that they had ever actually summoned it in the past - it was because they saw how summoning Primals affected the amalj'aa and the Ixal and realized summoning corrupted those who did so and didn't want that to happen to themselves. It's what caused the schism in sylvan society in ARR too - ironically they didn't even mention Ramuh by name at all (it was never confirmed Ramuh was even the sylph Primal until ARR). This is the dialogue from the above quest on the subject:

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Originally Posted by version 1.0 main scenario quest 'Together We Stand'

Flaxio: "These ones thought of fighting. These ones thought of many things, but the price... the price is too great."
Almxio: "These ones will not summon the Primal."
Zoxio: "The Primal reaps more pain than good. That One is best left undisturbed."
Path Companion: "The Primal... yes... Had the sylphs summoned their god, the Empire would already be preparing to enact their revenge on all of Eorzea. Thank the gods they didn't."
Diluxio: "Metal ones are the lesser evil. It is the Primals who darken hearts. Primals who poison minds! See the feathered ones. See the scaled ones. All are changed!"
Path Companion: "I have not noticed any great change in the behavior of the other beast tribes. They seem familiarly bestial, though a touch more highly strung, perhaps."
Diluxio: "Woken ones have eyes but cannot see! Woken ones refuse to see! Woken ones are blind!"
Path Companion: "We saw well enough to save the kin you failed to protect!... I'm sorry, I let passion rule my tongue. Though you doubt us, I can assure you that we saw the atrocities committed against you by the Empire all too clearly, and that we see you as friends. Friends against a common enemy."
Flaxio: "The metal ones are not the only threat. No. Not the greatest threat."

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And of course, it should be noted that none of the beast tribes actually couldn't summon until the Paragons (ala, the Ascians) visited each tribe in turn and instructed them on how to do so - the sylphs mentioned the Paragons even visited them and told them how to summon, but that they didn't want to due to the reasons I mentioned above. When the Paragons appeared to each beast tribe is anyone's guess though, but I'm liable to assume it was probably some time around the time a 1.0 player's character first appeared in Eorzea at the start of version 1.0''s storyline (around 1572 6AE I'd imagine) - but no doubt one of the Loremasters will be able to confirm that.

That is why my memory of it is bugging me so much. When I was looking at my videos what you posted is all I could find, but that conversation happens out in the shroud. What I'm remembering was in the Waking Sands. I can even picture where in the Sands it was (the hallway leading to the solar near the Lalafell that talked about being able to understand the beast tribes' languages). I can remember everything about it except what exactly was said. It's driving me crazy. For the sake of my sanity, it's best I conclude that I'm just mixing a bunch of different things together..

In those quests, they say that the one time they summoned Ramuh, he tempered half of them. All of the tempered sylphs in FFXIV are living in the zone where the Sylphs originally lived in Version 1.0; and there were no tempered sylphs in Version 1.0. Are you entirely sure that this first Ramuh summoning was pre-Calamity, or could they be saying that they've summoned him twice since the Calamity? I haven't found a clear reading of it, either way.

Yeah, I can't find any dialogue or cutscene reference in 1.0 at all to Ramuh where he was mentioned by name either - the only reason we all 'assumed' Ramuh was even the sylph Primal prior to the confirmation in ARR was the sylph 'logo' being a thunderbolt with a flower on top. As you said Moose, it seems the first (and so far only) time Ramuh was summoned was sometime after the Calamity, which resulted in the schism in sylvan society and the formation of Little Solace.

I've argued all along that it was Ramuh who was summoned. The Paragons taught the Beast tribes how to summon their Primals and how else would they know if the "magic" would work if Ramuh did not appear? The Sylphlands are right along the Ala Mhigan/Gridania border. Just because in 1.0 in the open world there weren't "tempered" Sylphs doesn't mean that he didn't have a following. The purple Sylphs are clearly due to this purple mist that appears in the Sylphlands now and the new Sylphs are born purple. The Calamity just brought these tempered Sylphs to the light as they use the destruction to justify their cause.

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

The Paragons taught the Beast tribes how to summon their Primals and how else would they know if the "magic" would work if Ramuh did not appear?

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I've still no solid evidence either way, but if the Sylphs had first-hand experience from a summoning between 1562 and 1567, why not add that to their warnings (in the 1.0 quests), instead of pointing towards the Amalj'aa and Ixal as their evidence before saying they'd never end up like that? That among the aforementioned is the main source of my doubts, really. No part of that story said, "We'd know! We just tried it!" or "We'll never do that, again." It's still possible - and it fits with the geography, but I haven't heard anything persuasive to either conclusion, so far ><

There was no evidence to support each Beast tribe having a sect that didn't go along with the Primals either so I don't see why the Sylphs couldn't have just been apprehensive about Ramuh. They had first had experience when the Paragon taught them and they saw how it eventually changed the Amalj'aa, Ixali, and Kobold in terms of hoarding crystals and becoming zealots of their particular Primal. When we do get to the Ramuh storyline I somewhat expect this to be gone over and explained, though even if it wasn't Ramuh that stopped the Garleans I'd have to wonder/question what ultimately made them stop the advancement. I doubt just the Primal standing in the Shroud going /pose did anything to deter them, maybe to show the Sylphs his power Ramuh brought down some of the Garlean Juggernauts? Lightning tends to cause mayhem when electronics are involved maybe magitek and lightning don't mix~ With ARR and no elemental wheel the Garleans have nothing to fear~

Shiva has been seen in quite a bit of the artwork - The art book that came with the collectors edition shows her...


If I was to speculate - and this is purely speculation, because I don't know enough about the history to say with any factual information, but with their proximity to Silvertear I would bet the Ishgardians have been keeping secrets behind their gates, maybe its not just beast tribes who summon primals?

It may explain where all that snow came from too :)

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Originally Posted by Mattlex

Shiva has been seen in quite a bit of the artwork - The art book that came with the collectors edition shows her...If I was to speculate - and this is purely speculation, because I don't know enough about the history to say with any factual information, but with their proximity to Silvertear I would bet the Ishgardians have been keeping secrets behind their gates, maybe its not just beast tribes who summon primals?

It may explain where all that snow came from too :)

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This has been a crack theory I've been harbouring in my mind, but reluctant to share considering the Yoshi-P statement, mentioned by others, of an "unseen beastman tribe". Then again, with Y'shtola's "private" conversation with the Admiral at the end of 2.2, I question "what is a beast man, and how are they different to the five races?" A beastmen race could simply be in the eyes of the beholder... I am certain that the Amalj'aa or Kobolds might consider us beasts for what we do to their kin. And consider Yugiri - we can clearly see she fears the prejudice her physical appearance inspires from the other races, yet we do not consider her a beastmen while she is clothed and masked, because she behaves like us. Would it be a different reaction from the Scions if she was unmasked during the story?

For now, I am going to assume that it is possibly the gigas. However, if it were Ishgardians trying to summon Halone... It could explain Shiva's Elezen appearance...

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Originally Posted by Kyan

Then again, with Y'shtola's "private" conversation with the Admiral at the end of 2.2, I question "what is a beast man, and how are they different to the five races?" A beastmen race could simply be in the eyes of the beholder... I am certain that the Amalj'aa or Kobolds might consider us beasts for what we do to their kin.

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And then there are the goblins and mamool'ja, both of which have cooperated freely with the three city-states in the past (and in fact, that's the reason why the mamool'ja are in the region - they came because employment was offered). The mamool'ja are mercenaries who appear to be willing to work for anyone, while the goblins don't understand why anyone would need a special word for "black market".

I thought the Primals couldn't be summoned until after the battle over Silvertear lake?

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I thought the Primals couldn't be summoned until after the battle over Silvertear lake?

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Hmm. I do not think that is completely true. They were summoned in Othard before the battle in Silvertear lake.

My theory would be that the Allagan collected/captured certain primals' essences, and sealed those away, but unlike all good pokémon trainers, didn't "catch 'em all".

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Originally Posted by Melinia

And then there are the goblins and .... while the goblins don't understand why anyone would need a special word for "black market".

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Well... you can't really sell lalafell souls, miqo'te pelts oe elezan organs out in the open....

Say....you smoke? Do you practise a healthy balanced diet?

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Originally Posted by Kyan

Hmm. I do not think that is completely true. They were summoned in Othard before the battle in Silvertear lake.

My theory would be that the Allagan collected/captured certain primals' essences, and sealed those away, but unlike all good pokémon trainers, didn't "catch 'em all".

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Or what the Allagans did only prevented their summoning in aether-rich Eorzea.

And what if that "misterious primal" wasn`t a primal at all?

For now, the only we know about primals is that their summoning requires Aether crystals, industrial ammounts. And then we have Ancient Primals which don`t need this and can manifest their body form anytime they want and for as long they want which forced Allagans to seal em (Odin and Bahamut).

If it was something like King Moogle? And if we are missing steps? If there are more methods of summoning, The Empire raised against the primal threat -That means, they have faced them before reaching Eorzea- Othard also knows about Primals. We can all mostly agree King Moogle IS a primal, just not an "Eorzea Style Summoned" primal.

It could have been even an Elder Primal we don`t know off, Odin seems to be low perfil in comparison with Bahamut omfgwordlsending, Primals also have behavior, they are not all just encarnations of destruction, for example Titan just wants to protect his lands for his children, Ramuh was described as a "pacific" primal when not angered, Ifrit is a warlord, Garuda is a crazyb**ch, Odin is looking for someone to maybe get revenge? They are all too diferent, what we call primal for now is just an aetherite manifestation of a respective element made by a beast tribe. And sorry, but Siren, King Mog, damn, even Gilgamesh itself are all primals. (Gilgamesh imo is an Elder Primal)

Actually, Gilgamesh isn't a Primal - he's just a hapless guy from a whole other universe but was caught in the Void and ended up in various other worlds - Hydaelyn isn't the first world he's visited.

But your idea of the 'Primal' that supposedly stopped Gaius's initial invasion being not a Primal at all but something else might ring true - given the fact the Empire uses the term 'eikon' to refer to any metaphysical being, whether Primal, god or any other aetheric entity, it's entirely possible that it could have even been a reference to Midgardsormr, a very real and living entity that was the guardian of Silvertear Lake, and the term 'Primal' was just a mistranslation. But nothing is known for certainty.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

it's entirely possible that <snip> the term 'Primal' was just a mistranslation.

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I'm relatively sure they meant primal. It was part of the Version 1.0 flash website, promotional materials, etc. and then they borrowed pieces of it for the ARR website, as well. I feel like somewhere in between someone would have been like, "Wait, primal? That wasn't a primal! Silly typo..." and fixed it. To guess an identity, the main unknown is when exactly it happened. When we had the chance to ask about the lore, any attempts to get clarification on when it happened and who it was have been carefully skirted around to not give any hints to those details. I assumed that meant the answer was going to come someday, but we had to wait for it. Then the issue just kinda disappeared for a while, again, lol.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

........ O.....And sorry, but Siren, King Mog, damn, even Gilgamesh itself are all primals. (Gilgamesh imo is an Elder Primal)

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The Primals take the behaviour of the beings that summon them. Titan is summoned due to the Pirates moving inland and broken the treaty, thus the summon is base on Defensive measures. Ifrit and Garuda are summoned due to the endless wars and border disputes. Garuda more insane the Ifrit probably due to the birdpeeps are VERY mad for losing their homes and their flight. Ramuh is mainly peaceful is due to the Sylphs nature or avoidance and non conflict.

King Mob is probably same as Titan, with the wacky touch of the Moggles. Odin is a cursed being, don't think he is summoned.

Gyr Abania could have had beastmen living there, ones that we have yet to meet for all we know.

But if we are counting on the fact that primals were not summonable because of the Silvertear Seal, then let's consider some other clues which are present in game: that Ultima Weapon was excavated from beneath Ala Mhigo, which had the capability to trap and use the power of a primal (or several of them). It should be noted, that Ultima's primal-trapping capabilities are reversible - when we damaged it sufficiently, the primals were released. Dalamud, too, could contain and sustain a primal - it did not need to be summoned - and when that was damaged, it was simply released onto Eorzea. And, if Odin is to be considered as well, he was a primal trapped inside of crystal in the Shroud and was released when that crystal was destroyed.

What made the Garleans dig for Ultima? Just the Ascians? Maybe they encountered some Allag construct in the area, a machination that contained a Primal, they destroyed its confines in research, and it attacked them? Maybe this lead them to understanding some of the Allag weaponry in battling primals, which caused openings for the Ascians to start influencing? Maybe the Ala Mhigans knew of a primal being trapped near their city under a mythos that it was the servant of Rhalgr, and unleashed it from its prison as they desperately escaped their conquered nation?

The Allagan had great knowledge about primals - including Elder primals if the summoner storyline is to judge by. I wouldn't put it past them to have trapped several primals for safe-keeping all over Hydaelyn. Their summoners needed to defeat them at least once to claim them as Egi - there could be places around the world designed especially for this purpose to allow many summoners easy access to the essence of primals.

^
That's a good theory and it makes perfect sense that allagans trapped primals in things (preferably crystals) so that summoners can tap into thier essence, since I highly doubt that they all sought and fought primals.

It'll also make sense since many summons in the final fantasy series were sealed in crystals, items, etc.

If a primal did halt garlean invasion then I'd have to say it would be an Elder Primal. Who knows, if Belias is the Elder Primal of Fire then perhaps theres an Elder Primal of lighting. I still thinkmot was Odin.

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Originally Posted by myahele

^
That's a good theory

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Thanks! I have many! But I think that's the fun of stories in Final Fantasy. They make you guess! And quite often, you are wrong, but in a wonderful way.

For example, Moose things that the Twelve might just be 12 glorified Allags in myth. I think he may be right, but I would extend it further. We see that the Allag not only mastered magic and technology, but they also dabbled in bioengineering (it is believed by some naturalists that some of Eorzea's wildlife were created by the Allag. There is evidence supporting this with some fish and monster information in leves, fishing log, and fates - Allagans may have engineered bolt fish and electric eels, for example. Archeron, and monsters from Bahamut's Coil like Mirror Knights, further expand on their genetic feats.

What if the Twelve are a culminating pinnacle of their work to master primals and create the perfect weapon? What if the Allagan sought to make themselves stronger -or perhaps, immortal- by binding the power of a primal inside a physical person - merging both man and god? Could Odin be that - a combination of man and the essence of a primal? Was he an experiment, gone wrong, and thus sealed away by Urth? Clearly they do not have the same moral compass the people of today have, if we consider the things they have created and experimented on.

The possibilities!

I'd still like to know what happened coming into Ala Mhigo, though. :(

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

And of course, it should be noted that none of the beast tribes actually couldn't summon until the Paragons (ala, the Ascians) visited each tribe in turn and instructed them on how to do so - the sylphs mentioned the Paragons even visited them and told them how to summon, but that they didn't want to due to the reasons I mentioned above. When the Paragons appeared to each beast tribe is anyone's guess though, but I'm liable to assume it was probably some time around the time a 1.0 player's character first appeared in Eorzea at the start of version 1.0''s storyline (around 1572 6AE I'd imagine) - but no doubt one of the Loremasters will be able to confirm that.

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The ascian's were sighted just before ifrit was summoned infact, though in a different form http://i.imgur.com/b2kJ8.png
I'm not sure why they looked like this or why their appearance changed in 2.0, but there you have it~

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Originally Posted by Leoheart

I'm not sure why they looked like this or why their appearance changed in 2.0, but there you have it~

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Probably because they look too much like Dementors from the Harry Potter universe.

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Originally Posted by Leoheart

I'm not sure why they looked like this or why their appearance changed in 2.0, but there you have it~

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One theory is that it's related to the "you only see what you're capable of seeing" line from Elidibus' and that, at the time, that's what we were capable of seeing. However, I've been going through some lore collections online and came across some quests that were never used in Version 1.0 that might offer a different picture, I've mentioned it before, but it bears repeating just in case; keep in mind that this quest cannot be guaranteed canon anymore, especially since it was never released, and also note that I'm not a baller translator and subject to mistakes, lol.

After the arc of the story where you take a time out from paragons and primals and try to help the Ala Mhigan resistance steal an Imperial airship from a base in Mor Dhona, you returned to primal hunting via the Ashcrown Consortium. When you first arrive, you are asked about the Ascian in question and told to look for a missing man in La Noscea.

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アシエンっていうのは、以前に[○○]で会ったよね？あの真っ黒くて、恐ろしい奴らだよ？
The Ascian you met in [THANALAN] before? The pitch black, terrible fellow?

10年くらい前から、ここエオルゼアに現れるようになってね。
It has been appearing in Eorzea for about ten years.

ものすごく強いし、ぜんぜん話さないらしいし、どこから来たのかもよくわからない…
It is incredibly strong, never speaks, and from where it might have come we don't know...

彼らは、神出鬼没で、蜥蜴型蛮族も鳥型蛮族も怖れている存在なんだ。
They seem to be everywhere at once and are the presence that the Amalj'aa and Ixal fear.

そんな彼らがこの前、[△△山]の辺りを襲ったんだって。
It seems that [MT. O'GHOMORO] was the site of their latest attack.

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It seems that as a result of this attack, the Kobold retreated and summoned Titan. By the time you arrive, the Company of Heroes is attempting to put him down, with the player caught in the middle of the action looking for the missing man. Titan tempers several of them and kills several more, but the player finds the missing man and escapes in time. I'm still working my way through the rest.

So it's also possible that the Reaper Ascian was in fact a false flag operation. The Ascians would have the masked, friendly Paragons teach the tribes to summon their gods and then scare the ever loving hells out of them as a prod to get on with the ritual.

This is one of the reasons that it throws people for such a loop that the Othardians have been summoning primals since before Silvertear. We didn't have this whole problem over here until the seal was broken and the Echo sounded, and it would be a lot cleaner to build a theory around just that.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

well....ala mhigo is in close proximity to the black shroud.

due to the sylphs being ruled out, the ixal are also beastmen near the black shroud. I'm not versed into ixali history, but they might have summoned garuda because they felt threatened by the garleans.

though its likely that a native beast tribe summoned their own patron demi-god...or a bunch of ala mhigans summoned rhalgr.

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I'm thinking it was located in Gyr Abania. If it isnt' Rhalgr, maybe it is something like Griever or Ixion. They've kinda used the most of the recurring FF summons already....