Yoshida on "the dangers of going free-to-play"

http://www.siliconera.com/2014/03/25...ing-free-play/

In other news, the sky is not falling.



/forum

The whole issue was him saying he wasn't opposed to it if the situation called for it in previous interviews. But these quotes really irked me:

Famitsu then asks Yoshida whether, if there’s demand from players to sell them items [in Final Fantasy XIV], he would do it.

“If it won’t have an effect on the game’s balance, and the demand is there, and we can deliver such items, then sure, I believe we’d sell them,” answers Yoshida. When asked about selling items that could change a character’s appearance, Yoshida also says that he believes that would be fine to sell.

Famitsu concludes the F2P talk by asking when Yoshida made up his mind on the subject of selling purchasable items.

“The demand from players [for them] are really high…” he replies.



“Even for one of the question items for our next Letter from the Producer, there was a question that asks ‘when will we be able to start buying items?’ and it had about 400 thumbs ups on it. I felt that the times sure have changed.”


He's basing this off of 400 likes? That's really what he determines whether or not something is wanted by the community? Oughh..

I'm sure it's more than that, but you do have to keep in mind, only so much of the community even bothers to give feedback that he has to work with that segment.

All in all, it's a very informative interview.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

stuff

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There's a difference between microtransactions and free-to-play. Pay-to-play games like FFXIV, World of Warcraft, Call of Duty (thinking specifically of Call of Duty Elite vs DLC), etc. can have microtransactions while still charging sub fees. As long as the paid-for items are cosmetic and don't affect game balance, as Yoshi says, then there's no detriment to having them in the game. Selling Fantasia on Mogstation is a no-brainer example.

Also, 400 likes on a particular question within the Letter from the Producer LIVE question threads is a lot, compared to the vast majority of posts in those threads, which barely manage 1 or 2 likes. It's a matter of perspective.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

There's a difference between microtransactions and free-to-play.

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I never said that microtransations were the same thing as f2p. It was completely unrelated so if it came off differently, my bad. I personally just don't like the idea of there being purchasable items in a game we already pay 12-15 usd a month on. All of these extras should already be included in the game, imho. But everyone has their own opinions.

It also isn't clear as to what the line is for 'not effecting gameplay'. I sure believe having extra retainers gives an unfair advantage (since you can now level and retrieve items from them), yet you can buy extras as soon as the next patch.

Sorry OT, but was that a green chicken in one of those pics?

You can say the same thing about cash shops.

“When you go F2P, you can’t make money from the game’s content itself, but rather, you have to make profit from items and things based on time, or else the game can’t continue. However, even if you’d like to focus on updating the content, you’ll be required to work on many items and the shops used to sell them, and that’s not related to what makes the game fun, right? When you want to put 100% of your energy into making new content, but you have to split 30~40% of it into ways of making money, you might end up thinking, ‘why am I making this?’”

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Originally Posted by Delsus

Sorry OT, but was that a green chicken in one of those pics?

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The green chicken is Gilgamesh's homeboy Enkidu.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

I never said that microtransations were the same thing as f2p. It was completely unrelated so if it came off differently, my bad. I personally just don't like the idea of there being purchasable items in a game we already pay 12-15 usd a month on. All of these extras should already be included in the game, imho. But everyone has their own opinions.

It also isn't clear as to what the line is for 'not effecting gameplay'. I sure believe having extra retainers gives an unfair advantage (since you can now level and retrieve items from them), yet you can buy extras as soon as the next patch.

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Ah sorry, it seemed like you were conflating the two in your post but I was mistaken. Obviously there's a fine line you have to dance across when adding stuff to a microtransaction shop. I don't believe additional retainers qualifies as "pay-to-win" but you might think differently. Cheers for intelligent discussion though!

Wow, that was a pretty refreshing read. I'm personally not against seeing things like hair colors, minions, or anything like that
for $2-$3 in a shop. It's not game breaking, and I have no reason to throw my keyboard cuz someone else has a Wind-Up Ifrit
and I don't. The day weapons/armor etc. are available that become mandatory to progress in the game, then there's a problem.

I'd rather this game not go F2P and our 3-month updates turn into 9-12 month updates, either. I would be 100% done with FF.

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Originally Posted by Doo

You can say the same thing about cash shops.

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The same can't actually be said.

"When you got F2P, you cant make money from the games content itself. . ."

First sentence of what you quoted, says why the same cannot be said of a cash shop. A cash shop is additional income in a subscription based game. It's only F2P games that can't profit off of content. They don't have to make profit from the cash shop in order for the game to go on. In fact they could sell one thing on the cash shop and continue development because it's not necessary for the games success. Items are required in F2P shops. They are not required in a subscription games shop.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

He's basing this off of 400 likes? That's really what he determines whether or not something is wanted by the community? Oughh..

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He made the choice because demand was high. And as an example, he mentioned when they were getting questions for the letter from the producer, that was one of the questions. That question received 400 likes. But that question was made under the pretense that items would be sold, since it asks "when will we be able to start" and not just "will we be able to." Interest in purchasing items was measured before that question was asked and before it got the response that it did. Just because more people didn't like it, doesn't mean they don't want items sold to them, but they were not interested in the answer. You make it sound as if there's 400 people out there that want items, and that's what made him decide. Right there on the spot.

I'd also say 400 likes on these forums is also pretty impressive.

I'd pay extra money for HD texture pack. There's lots of demand on this forum for that too but I don't see Yoshi talking about it. I'd rather pay extra money to push Yoshi in releasing the original texture and ensure that every new gears are updated to the same fidelity. That would make a much better microtransaction "cosmetic" option than nickle and diming us for retainers, haircuts, minions and mounts.

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Originally Posted by HoneyBiscuit

I'd also say 400 likes on these forums is also pretty impressive.

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the thread asking for notorious monsters that was on the forums not too long ago was over 2k likes and the question got close to 1k when it was asked a long time ago in the live letters. 400 is more than most, but it's nowhere near as many as a question has seen.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

the thread asking for notorious monsters that was on the forums not too long ago was over 2k likes and the question got close to 1k when it was asked a long time ago in the live letters. 400 is more than most, but it's nowhere near as many as a question has seen.

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Difference being that these 400 were for a post in one of the question threads for producer letter live...
Without digging up the exact post and comparing the likes that question got with the other questions in the same thread, hard to say more than that...

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

the thread asking for notorious monsters that was on the forums not too long ago was over 2k likes and the question got close to 1k when it was asked a long time ago in the live letters. 400 is more than most, but it's nowhere near as many as a question has seen.

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I can't really argue that a question has seen more likes. But that doesn't mean the interest for either thing in question was any more or less than the other. The interest is in the answer. I'm content knowing we'll be getting extra stuff to buy in a cash shop. I don't need to know when. I would not have "liked" the question, though I am still very interested in its subject matter. That's all I'm trying to say. The likes on that question is not a good judge of interest. And it wasn't what prompted the decision as some had suggested.

I think the whole thing saying "well the community is requesting items for purchase" is a double bladed deal. A lot of folks in the community are saying they want it as a purchase because getting it otherwise seems unlikely, or not an option. Fantasia potions are a good example of that. I'm quite sure it's the feature that people want, and they think the only way that feature will be considered is if they offer money for it. So then they ask for the option to purchase.. not with the intent for the higher ups to see "oh, they want a cash shop", that part just kind of happens, apparently.

Basically, what people actually seem to want is a way to obtain certain items, like a fantasia potion.. doesn't have to be a cash shop. What's seen is they want a cash shop. x.x Hopefully that made sense.

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

Basically, what people actually seem to want is a way to obtain certain items, like a fantasia potion.. doesn't have to be a cash shop. What's seen is they want a cash shop. x.x Hopefully that made sense.

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Of course players want a cash shop have you seen the amount of RMT in game? :( Legalize it!

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Originally Posted by Doo

Of course players want a cash shop have you seen the amount of RMT in game? :( Legalize it!

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I dunno, I think players just want the things a cash shop offers. If given the option to get that thing for free with the same amount, or very minimal effort, they'd take the free option. :P

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Originally Posted by Sunarie

Snips

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Maybe, but that's not how I feel. I actually do want the cash shop. The things I would like to see available in the cash shop are things the developers hadn't actually considered or planned on implementing in game anywhere. I actually don't want them to focus on putting these kinds of things in game. Focus on the game you want to make. You just so happened to make a potion I can use to change my character and I want more of them. I'd pay for them out of pocket whatever. But I don't want to distract a single person from the dev team by making him implement a quest or something silly to get it. Then I can get what I want sure. But now it's a chore, and a waste of time for a nonessential feature. I personally prefer to get things like that instantly, and like having an excuse to further support the developer. Assuming prices are reasonable.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

Pay-to-play games like FFXIV, World of Warcraft, Call of Duty (thinking specifically of Call of Duty Elite vs DLC), etc. can have microtransactions while still charging sub fees. As long as the paid-for items are cosmetic and don't affect game balance, as Yoshi says, then there's no detriment to having them in the game.

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Which still leaves me skeptical about the Venture system if there's no limit to how many can be undertaken at one time, especially considering there are items that can only be found through Ventures. I'm ok with Fantasia, but not a potentially advantage-giving game system that you can pay more money for every month and be able to have a leg up on the guy that can't/won't pay the extra money.

Guess we'll see what's what after the update tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Which still leaves me skeptical about the Venture system if there's no limit to how many can be undertaken at one time, especially considering there are items that can only be found through Ventures. I'm ok with Fantasia, but not a potentially advantage-giving game system that you can pay more money for every month and be able to have a leg up on the guy that can't/won't pay the extra money.

Guess we'll see what's what after the update tomorrow.

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I doubt the venture exclusive items will be more than vanity items. You found a stupid pet (I freaking love stupid pets). Probably just buy the junk they find on the MB anyway.

I'm completely opposed to any form of microtransactions.

In my opinion an MMORPG with a subscription model, should make everything available for it's players.
If I want to pay for gear (even if it's vanity) then I could just play a F2P or B2P game.

I play a P2P game because I want the freedom to do any content and get any gear that is available in the game to be accessible, microtransactions limit that freedom.

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Originally Posted by HoneyBiscuit

I doubt the venture exclusive items will be more than vanity items. You found a stupid pet (I freaking love stupid pets). Probably just buy the junk they find on the MB anyway.

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Ventures also have a soft cap. You're basically paying the retainers wages...sure, at first you might have 4695702 retainers to work for you, but unless you FATE grind, do all your dailies, do dungeons and grind them all, you won't have enough ventures to send all of them out. It's entirely dependent on you.

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Originally Posted by Namasu

I'd pay extra money for HD texture pack.

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I would never pay something extra for something that should be there in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

“Even for one of the question items for our next Letter from the Producer, there was a question that asks ‘when will we be able to start buying items?’ and it had about 400 thumbs ups on it. I felt that the times sure have changed.”

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400 of anything in one direction with zero capacity to vote in the other direction is a useless metric.

Why this forum lacks a thumbs down option is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by necrosis

I would never pay something extra for something that should be there in the first place.

400 of anything in one direction with zero capacity to vote in the other direction is a useless metric.

Why this forum lacks a thumbs down option is beyond me.

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STOP SPEAKING LOGIC! :)

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

Difference being that these 400 were for a post in one of the question threads for producer letter live...
Without digging up the exact post and comparing the likes that question got with the other questions in the same thread, hard to say more than that...

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i stated in the post you quoted that there was a question on the same thing in a live letter with over 1k likes. i don't know why you are correcting someone when even the thing you quote shows your "correction" is incorrect.

lmao can we stop the mass suicides? Yoshi-p "Only gave his opinion about F2P Model". He never say ARR WILL BECOME F2P IN APRIL LOL.


The F2P games do not exist anymore. Most them are Pay to win, even is the pay to win are just small helps.

Guys learn read..... for the love the satan, english is my third language... I understood all the interview, he only had a "DRUNKED GUYS, TALK".

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Originally Posted by CrAZYVIC

...he only had a DRUNKED GUYS TALK.

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On my phone, I somehow read that as DRUNKED GUYS TAX, and thought, "Yoshi's gonna implement alcohol and starting taxing people who over-indulge?"

See I really don't mind his idea of a cash shop for normal vanity type things.
It doesn't hurt game balance or anything it's just tiny dumb things that if you want it throw down 5bucks and you got yourself a purple sheep mount or something.
Now I'd be a little upset of vanity items are able to be put up on the MB that's when I think I'd voice an complaint. But I read the article before it was posted here. I think what he said was really well thought out,and as other posters pointed out.

But honestly the core thing is if SE oversteps it's bounds by offering things that are unbalanced and unfair to the masses who wont/aren't able to give that little extra money for something. Then that's when us as consumers of a product should not only be vocal about our upset and show them with the only way we can with our wallets that we are upset.

I trust them enough to not go too far so meh.

The day that put a cash shop in a game i'm paying a freaking subscription for is the day I quit. I love cosmetic/vanity gear. Its one of the most fun things about the game for me, so people saying "its fine as long as it doesn't effect balance" is extremely disheartening.

Cash Shop mentality in a subbed game is damn foolish! I wont stand for it. If this game starts a cash shop I'll go back to my f2p games. There's some heavy hitters coming down the pike. I love the look of Final Fantasy but I can be teased elsewhere. I paid sub to get away from that atmosphere. Gambler's Shop - people can't stop spending money when they open one of those.

Note, I want all those cosmetic things but NOT FROM A CASH SHOP! Events will be pointless if they do this.

Sigh, well, once these 2.2 retainers with their perks go live, a precedent will have been set. They are probably getting everyone used to the idea of micro-transactions, to then slowly but surely shove the F2P business model down people's throat, or not. What could be next? Vanity? Mounts? Boosters? Obama Care?

Oh well, vote with your wallets people.

Okay, as long as the balance isn't upset, huh? As soon as you made retainers able to do more than just store crap, you made being able to buy more of them with $$$ upset the game's balance, no matter how little.

Good read. This should calm everyone down until next week.

Would be a shame to screw up something really good with f2p. As soon as one guy that can afford to spend a few hundred per month (whale in dev terms) gets an unfair advantage over the vast majority that can't, the game is major broken and a ton of people would stop playing very quickly.
The thing that makes MMOs work is an in-game economy. Even with illegal Gil sellers a portion of that 'money' trickles back down to someone playing the game.
Sell fantasia
Sell mounts.
Sell furnishings.
Sell minions.
Sell houses.
Who cares, but you start selling armor and weapons, and even buffs like 24 hour exp bonus or something like echo, this game is dead.

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Originally Posted by 10TailBeast

Okay, as long as the balance isn't upset, huh? As soon as you made retainers able to do more than just store crap, you made being able to buy more of them with $$$ upset the game's balance, no matter how little.

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Not if venture exclusive items are purely minions, crafting mats for purely cosmetic gear, etc. So what if someone can make more money than you? What is there to buy that actually matters from a power perspective? Absolutely nothing.

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Originally Posted by waldo

Sell fantasia
Sell mounts.
Sell furnishings.
Sell minions.
Sell houses.
Who cares.

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Just to clarify myself, if these things that have no impact on the game other than 'look at me I spend money' junk, even that stuff should be obtainable by playing the game (like it is now with everything I've listed). If some fool wants to spend his/her hard earned cash instead of putting in the time it takes to get this stuff in the game, more power to them.

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

Not if venture exclusive items are purely minions, crafting mats for purely cosmetic gear, etc. So what if someone can make more money than you? What is there to buy that actually matters from a power perspective? Absolutely nothing.

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By saying this you admit that they are adding something that upsets the balance of the game. I slacked off on crafting and missed out on that early gil, but that is on my own head. However, even with maxed out crafting, if I don't "fall in line" and buy retainers like everyone else, I won't be able to catch up. That is pay2win in a nutshell. The crafting is a game within a game, there is something to be won, just like dungeons. Players who buy retainers will have an advantage.

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Originally Posted by 10TailBeast

By saying this you admit that they are adding something that upsets the balance of the game. I slacked off on crafting and missed out on that early gil, but that is on my own head. However, even with maxed out crafting, if I don't "fall in line" and buy retainers like everyone else, I won't be able to catch up. That is pay2win in a nutshell. The crafting is a game within a game, there is something to be won, just like dungeons. Players who buy retainers will have an advantage.

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So not being able to catch up is your definition of pay to win? Guess anyone who has been subbed 1 day longer than you must have paid to win at this game.

In the microcosm of 1 aspect of the game, sure, people with extra retainers may have an advantage. Unfortunately, you have to look at the whole game and decide if they actually gain anything by having more money. Pro tip: they don't. This is precisely WHY crafting will never be allowed to make BiS gear, so that gil doesn't = power.

So tell me then, what exactly are they paying for that qualifies as "winning"? Gil is practically useless in this game.

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I'm completely opposed to any form of microtransactions.

In my opinion an MMORPG with a subscription model, should make everything available for it's players.
If I want to pay for gear (even if it's vanity) then I could just play a F2P or B2P game.

I play a P2P game because I want the freedom to do any content and get any gear that is available in the game to be accessible, microtransactions limit that freedom.

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I'm with you!