Whm/Sch... which will get BiS?

So with the announcement that tome gear will not be the same iLvL as new coil gear, I got to wondering....

If the Allagan gear is anything like previous coils gear, one of the healing classes is going to be screwed over for stats.
As it stands majority of SCH's current BiS is tome gear. If the new Allagan does not yield a decent level of crit, but the NEW tome gear does- it sets SCH's up for either suffering lower level gear and thus less mind or suffering from a lack of crit and taking the higher iLvL.

Vice versa- if the new Allagan gear is more crit focused than last coils... poor WHMs!
The beauty of tome gear and coil gear being same iLvL was CHOICES. Being able to focus on getting the stats you desire rather than just taking whats handed to you.
Thoughts?

I'm sure they will keep it balance in the end. And Most likely priortize in MND and PIE which both healers benefit from. Although SCH Benefits more from Crit than WHM, I never heard a WHM say "I hate all this crit". Im willing to bet the 110 gear will most likey have MND PIE DET AND CRIT. Thoses stats are the best for Both Healers.

This would make me more than happy xD

Although I do agree that the current Allagan set favors Det more then Crit, it also makes it so pie is the other secondary stat on every single piece, take a look:

Weapon - Speed & Pie
Head - Det & Pie
Chest - Det & Pie
Hands - Crit & Pie
Waist - Speed & Pie
Legs - Crit & Pie
Feet - Speed & Pie
Neck - Det & Pie
Ears - Det & Pie
Wrists - Speed & Pie
Ring - Det & Pie

Leaving us with a total of:

5 Pieces with Det
4 Pieces with Speed
2 Pieces with Crit
All pieces with Pie

So the new pieces from Coil may be a mixture just like these, hopefully more balanced. However this also raises another point. The Relic +2 so to speak, was said to eventually have stats you could change into basically whatever you wanted. So if you want Det+Pie you could have it, or Det+Crit, or whatever combination you prefer. It makes me wonder if the new coil gear will eventually have the same option.

Mind is still the #1 stat over the others, even going from ilvl 80 gear to ilvl90 the mind added makes more of a difference then the measly amount of det, speed, or crit you lose on that particular piece. We'll be going from ilvl 100 with the new tomestones to ilvl 110 with the new coil gear, and you'll pretty much want to upgrade due to the increased mind. Not to mention who knows how much HP we'll want at the end-game. Personally speaking though, full ilvl90 gear now (with the allagan weapon) puts me at 4200+ with just the party Vit buff and no food. Which is just enough to survive a fireball from Twin. So I get the feeling you'll need all the coil gear you can get regardless of secondary stats.

As long as it's not a ton of spell speed I won't care much.

Though it if doesn't have a ton of spell speed, unless fights get much longer, there's not much reason to have more PIE (a WHM viewpoint at least). With the extra ilvl you can probably squeeze the pie needed into like two fewer pieces of gear that could then be Det/Crit. Wouldn't that be lovely?

Or, I suppose damage could be so much higher you have to use CureII a lot more even with the mind/det you get. But then you need a whole boatload more pie that probably wouldn't happen.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

I'm sure they will keep it balance in the end. And Most likely priortize in MND and PIE which both healers benefit from. Although SCH Benefits more from Crit than WHM, I never heard a WHM say "I hate all this crit". Im willing to bet the 110 gear will most likey have MND PIE DET AND CRIT. Thoses stats are the best for Both Healers.

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So so wrong. Crit in no way benefits a WHM. Its terrible. All it creates is over heals and extra aggro. Whm gets no special procs from crits. The best stat that would be for both healers is det, because both healers can benefit from higher base heals. Currently though its 5 Det/3 SS/2 Crit pieces. They really need to add reforging, customizable last stat.

I would definitely keep an eye on SS. Don't be so hasty in discarding it.

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Originally Posted by Heofonum

I would definitely keep an eye on SS. Don't be so hasty in discarding it.

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This.
Though I find one thing about the community hilarious.
People who favor Spell Speed don't bash on Det, but people who favor Det constantly bashes on Spell Speed. Both are just as viable as the other because they both suck equally. Though I will agree Crit is beyond terrible for WHM. Kills me when I see people with that Omnirod...

I love Spell Speed, because I prefer speed over power in general

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Originally Posted by Airikay

So so wrong. Crit in no way benefits a WHM. Its terrible. All it creates is over heals and extra aggro. Whm gets no special procs from crits. The best stat that would be for both healers is det

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As if threat is even an issue since 2.1. Unless ur spamming your cure, a crit means less mp your spending to get the tank back to full health. And tell me crits are useless after your tank eats a death sentence or wicked wheel.

ofcourse it benefits whm. . If healer share the allagan 2gear they will need to make at least 50/50. Wouldnt be fair for either if its benefit one class more.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

As if threat is even an issue since 2.1. Unless ur spamming your cure, a crit means less mp your spending to get the tank back to full health. And tell me crits are useless after your tank eats a death sentence or wicked wheel.

ofcourse it benefits whm. . If healer share the allagan 2gear they will need to make at least 50/50. Wouldnt be fair for either if its benefit one class more.

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I am telling you a crit is useless after a death sentence and wicked wheel, yes. A well timed cure 2 and lustrate raises our tank right back to full health. Without me critting. You can't count on crits too happen and there is no proc benefit. I use 0 crit gear as do most WHM who do endgame that have what they consider BiS. Most will pick cleric hands over Allagan hands and Allagan belt over hero. I'm seeing you in DL and figuring you have no real endgame experience as a WHM.

Also, aggro goes simply beyond ripping hate off a tank. It also goes with where I'm placed in aggro list. Certain abilities targets certain players on aggro list. I don't even want to be 2nd or third in most cases. Which I think you don't understand at all. Unless you think WHM get no aggro all of a sudden with healing since 2.1? Which lol @ you if so

Edit: I understand it'd be fair to split 50/50, half crit and half det. My original point is you were saying all crit would benefit both, which is the furthest thing from the truth. You tried claiming WHM don't turn away from crit, which for most is also furthest thing from the truth.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

As if threat is even an issue since 2.1. Unless ur spamming your cure, a crit means less mp your spending to get the tank back to full health. And tell me crits are useless after your tank eats a death sentence or wicked wheel.

ofcourse it benefits whm. . If healer share the allagan 2gear they will need to make at least 50/50. Wouldnt be fair for either if its benefit one class more.

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Death Sentence comes every 3 plummets, which comes every 3 auto attacks. Wicked Wheel comes 4 seconds after Friction. If your tank doesn't have both Stoneskin and Adlo for those attacks, your healers are dropping the ball.

Crits are unreliable and generally unneeded. If you NEED a crit somewhere, you've screwed up.

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Originally Posted by Airikay

I am telling you a crit is useless after a death sentence and wicked wheel, yes.

I'm seeing you in DL and figuring you have no real endgame experience as a WHM.

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So you having better gear automatically makes your point valid ? lol. As a i90 WAR/PLD Main since launch ; I have enough of experience to know a crit heal could mean the difference between a successful run and a wipe. DET and Crits are both important to Healers. Sure each class has their BiS preference because of class dynamics, but to say CRIT is useless to WHM is almost as dumb as saying VIT is useless to healers.

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Originally Posted by Airikay

Also, aggro goes simply beyond ripping hate off a tank. It also goes with where I'm placed in aggro list. Certain abilities targets certain players on aggro list. I don't even want to be 2nd or third in most cases. Which I think you don't understand at all. Unless you think WHM get no aggro all of a sudden with healing since 2.1? Which lol @ you if so

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Since 2.1 Tanking as far enmity is concern, has become face roll easy. Dont know what tanks you role with, and maybe you have tanks who dont use their cooldowns effectively but when I tank; healers are at the bottom of the threat list near 0. If anything, Main Tanks biggest rival for threat are other tanks. Followed by SMN> MNK> BLM> DRG Heck even BRDs.

Only situation where ive seen Healers Threat really high is in Turn 2 Enrage Method where they are spamming AoE Cures.


So Based on your logic. If I had to choose between 2 healers, both with the same amount of experience and both with the same MND, PIE and DET, But one has Higher CRIT than the other, I should turn down the one with more crit because He will cause "threat issues."

LOL @ YOU

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Originally Posted by Zaft

Death Sentence comes every 3 plummets, which comes every 3 auto attacks. Wicked Wheel comes 4 seconds after Friction. If your tank doesn't have both Stoneskin and Adlo for those attacks, your healers are dropping the ball.

Crits are unreliable and generally unneeded. If you NEED a crit somewhere, you've screwed up.

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I disagree. If your a good healer your right you will foresee most dynamics and be ready for it....but no1 can foresee everything, things will crit your tank (EX primals for example) and can catch you off guard. My whole point is he's saying its useless. And thats ballsy imo. Theres a difference between not as important to WHM & Useless...and for schlor thats the total opposite, CRIT>DET

Its like having new brakes on your car....you might not always need superb brakes, but your definately happy you have it when it comes thru in your time in need.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

LOL @ YOU

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Wow, your reading comprehension is terrible. I said ripping from tanks isn't issue, it also depends where I'm on aggro list. Because certain attacks target the second or third enmity etc. Conflag and dread being a major one. I find it funny you think because you blow cooldowns, healers are at bottom of threat list automatically. I guess you only tank CT. You speak from no experience as a conjurer, as yours isn\\'t even 50. How can you really tell someone how their class is when you\\'ve never touched it? /mindblown

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Originally Posted by Zaft

Death Sentence comes every 3 plummets, which comes every 3 auto attacks.

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Haha, really?

I've just been doing it by feel for the most part. ~30 seconds from the last DS? Stoneskin. In P2 onward, replace with: no infirmity on the tank? Stoneskin. In P5, as I sprint terrified from Liquid Hell spam, replace with: Benediction as DS hits and PRAY.

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Originally Posted by Airikay

You speak from no experience as a conjurer, as yours isn't even 50. How can you really tell someone how their class is when you've never touched it? /mindblown

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Originally Posted by Airikay

I am telling you a crit is useless

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1st off, this whole conversation started when you said crit is useless to whm, period. No one said det isnt better for whm. We can all agree that det > crit for whm and crit > det for sch. My argument is that although whm want more det, crit is not completely useless for whm either.

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Originally Posted by Airikay

Edit: I understand it'd be fair to split 50/50, half crit and half det. My original point is you were saying all crit would benefit both

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Just realized you changed your original statement, this is more accurate and that's exactly what I said in my original comment. I never said it should be all crit, I said it would be balance if it was all MND PIE DET AND CRIT.

Bottom line the new 110 gear should be balanced with crit and det to satisfy both healers since schlor see a better return with crit (i.e bigger shields, and their trait that increase SS when pet crit) and whm see better returns from det. So...now that we are on the same page...what exactly are we arguing about ?

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Originally Posted by Airikay

Wow, your reading comprehension is terrible. I said ripping from tanks isn't issue, it also depends where I'm on aggro list. Because certain attacks target the second or third enmity etc. Conflag and dread being a major one.

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Conflag and dread don't target 2nd on hate list. If you're 2nd on Twintania rest assured, you'll never have to deal with these mechanics as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Songi

Conflag and dread don't target 2nd on hate list. If you're 2nd on Twintania rest assured, you'll never have to deal with these mechanics as a healer.

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I didn't say they were I was saying they were attack that depended on where you are on aggro list. Example its best healers or offtank goes into conflag. Best if healer is targets by dread so want to be 3 or further down.

Guys guys guys!
Just wait and see in 2.2!
No need to bash on stats, yoshi put them in there for a reason. Maybe we haven't seen them in full action yet as this game is still kind of new and not that big in customization yet.
But of course you will need a lot of that new vit in the new gear for turn 9?
Cuz it'd be nonsense if the new gear had the same vit as the i90 stuff.
So here's to hoping that healers will reach 6k hp+ and 3k+ heals on average!
But yea u guys sound soooo ridiculous with all this debate over stats that u claim to be numero uno.
Statistics are 1 thing, but being in a situational party is another.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

But yea u guys sound soooo ridiculous with all this debate over stats that u claim to be numero uno.
Statistics are 1 thing, but being in a situational party is another.

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^ This. If you prefer Det, Crit, or Speed, who cares? It works for you and that's all that matters. I personally prefer Det, but I'm not about to come here and say "oh speed and crit are stupid on this class." Really guys? Have we gone back to 2nd grade where you have cooties and can't play with us?

I've always looked at crits for whm as a type of safety cushion. Not needed unless you mess something up which is bound to happen at some point but there's other things to focus on first.

People also fail to realize that stats are like classes, and can be freely buffed and needed when the developer feels it's necessary. What you call BiS today might be totally useless in the future. And rest assured, from a developer's point of view, if there is a stat that seems lackluster compared to the rest, it will be buffed.

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Originally Posted by Airikay

I am telling you a crit is useless after a death sentence and wicked wheel, yes. A well timed cure 2 and lustrate raises our tank right back to full health. Without me critting. You can't count on crits too happen and there is no proc benefit. I use 0 crit gear as do most WHM who do endgame that have what they consider BiS. Most will pick cleric hands over Allagan hands and Allagan belt over hero. I'm seeing you in DL and figuring you have no real endgame experience as a WHM.

Also, aggro goes simply beyond ripping hate off a tank. It also goes with where I'm placed in aggro list. Certain abilities targets certain players on aggro list. I don't even want to be 2nd or third in most cases. Which I think you don't understand at all. Unless you think WHM get no aggro all of a sudden with healing since 2.1? Which lol @ you if so

Edit: I understand it'd be fair to split 50/50, half crit and half det. My original point is you were saying all crit would benefit both, which is the furthest thing from the truth. You tried claiming WHM don't turn away from crit, which for most is also furthest thing from the truth.

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I'm SCH BiS. As a result, my WHM has all the crit accessories and the Allagan gloves. I LOVE the crit on WHM . It really really helps in mana conservation, and with Shroud on constant CD, aggro is hardly a problem. Solo healing is also a lot easier. 2200 Cure III crits during Titan HM tumults are amazing. 1/4 heals seems to crit for me, and a Cure I with a crit is perfectly capable of completely topping of a DPS from half health. I also can't tell you how many times a Cure II crit has saved the tank.

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Originally Posted by Menae

Haha, really?

I've just been doing it by feel for the most part. ~30 seconds from the last DS? Stoneskin. In P2 onward, replace with: no infirmity on the tank? Stoneskin. In P5, as I sprint terrified from Liquid Hell spam, replace with: Benediction as DS hits and PRAY.

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Yep! It can be slightly pushed back by Fireball, so just be aware of that. Also, on P2, you've got pretty much the right idea actually. His last plummet will be the only plummet done when the tank does NOT have infirmity. So if you lose track of the counting, and you notice his infirmity has worn off, you'll know that the next plummet heralds a Death Sentence. For P3, I use swift-stoneskin or swift-adlo if I'm running away from Liquid Hells and a Death Sentence is soon to land.

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Originally Posted by Alexia89

Vice versa- if the new Allagan gear is more crit focused than last coils... poor WHMs!
The beauty of tome gear and coil gear being same iLvL was CHOICES. Being able to focus on getting the stats you desire rather than just taking whats handed to you.
Thoughts?

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I think that it is fine if they want to make actual raid gear the highest item level gear in the game and, yes, better than tome gear. You figure, someone who has it is wearing a badge saying "I faced the hardest content in the game", versus "I mark capped for a couple weeks". That said, I agree that choices are important for optimal play, as right now with healers, the importance of secondary stats varies greatly. I think actual raids have always needed more loot. They need to drop more and the table needs to be larger. My point is that Tome gear doesn't have to be only alternative to raid gear; there can be multiple alternatives within raid gear and frankly, I'd prefer that.

Looking at the patch notes, it looks like the i100 tome gear can be upgraded to i110. Still giving you the option of gearing outside of coil(probably) but making it a bit harder to do so.

So itemization will still be here. New BiS lists incoming.

http://xivdb.com/?search/!filters/Ik...RBVEVEXzA6Ig==


http://xivdb.com/?search/!filters/Ik...NJX1NDSE9MQVIi


-_-

XIVDB.com has the new items up. Filtering SCH items by piece. It is looking like High Allagan (HA) pieces are VIT, MND, PIE, DET, and ACC. (yes, accuracy on the i100+ items). Daystar gear on the other hand is VIT, MND, PIE, CRIT, and ACC. Both are i110 with equivalent DEF, VIT, MND, and ACC. From the looks of it, HA will be WHM and Daystar will be SCH, unless the SCH wants more DET.

With regards to weapons, HA will be the weapon of choice again for SCH. Not only is it i115, but it also has CRIT instead of SSp. WHM on the other hand has to choose between the i115 HA with SSp or the i110 Yagrush with DET. HA obviously wins out in the end, but Yagrush is not a terrible second.

Accessories will need a bit more time to sort through, though it seems HA and Daystar are both i110.

There are actually some HA accessories with crit! :) looks like it's about half and half.

From what I understand, high allagan is 110, then the soldiery-based equipment is i100 by default, being "weathered". You then can make this weathered stuff non-weathered and i110. So basically, BiS will be a combination of high allagan and your upgraded weathered-gear, which seems to require an item called "sands of time" (and the weathered piece). I assume "sands of time" will be a Coil boss drop? (As to not hand out i110 gear without doing the harder content).

Looks very interesting at any rate, with the scholar's weapon progression being: High allagan (115) > Book of Diamonds (110) > Tidalwave Codex/Omnilex Animus (100, both have 20 DET) > Weathered Book of Diamonds (100, it will have spellspeed on it and no DET).

Edit:

On a personal level, I'll be going for the Leviathan EX weapon (Tidal Wave Codex) or the Omnilex Animus - whichever is the faster i100 to achieve. As I am doing this, I will be saving Soldiery tokens for the 3 first weeks, to be able to afford 10 rowena's tokens (soldiery), which is required to buy a Weathered Book of Diamonds, which is required for the i110, non-weathered version of it. (Seems like rowena's tokens of soldiery cost 130 soldiery tomes per token, so that's 1300 = 3 weeks at 450 per week). Even if I did manage to get the Tidal Wave Codex faster than the Animus relic, I will still obviously get the Animus one too, because that won't be its finalized form. T9 will be a pipedream, but something to work towards. That 115 book has great stats. (Well, DET instead of Piety would be nice, but dat Crit).

Daystar here I come! I am still wondering about this sands of time item but at least know we know coil gear isn't the best for every class SE just made it a bit harder for ppl to match tome gear to coil gear by making you have to upgrade it now!

it would seem the gear treadmill is back to rolling, better get our running legs ready I see a whole lot of grinding in the next few months to get all this gear.

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Originally Posted by shadowrell_d-_-b

Daystar here I come! I am still wondering about this sands of time item but at least know we know coil gear isn't the best for every class SE just made it a bit harder for ppl to match tome gear to coil gear by making you have to upgrade it now

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I am guessing (and hoping) that Sands of Time and Unidentified Allagan Tomestone ( = the 2 items which seem to be required for some of the upgrades/purchases) will both be Coil-exclusive boss drops, being untradeable while at that. Meaning, while you wouldn't necessarily have 'Coil gear' (high-allagan), you would still need to do the hardest content to get the best gear, upgrading your i100 to i110, while only letting the more casual players have i100. ;p

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Originally Posted by shadowrell_d-_-b

Daystar here I come! I am still wondering about this sands of time item but at least know we know coil gear isn't the best for every class SE just made it a bit harder for ppl to match tome gear to coil gear by making you have to upgrade it now!

it would seem the gear treadmill is back to rolling, better get our running legs ready I see a whole lot of grinding in the next few months to get all this gear.

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Shadowrell you dont play Naruto anymore? It's SenjuGkage.

For those curious, here's a stat breakdown for the two sets. (using only 1 ring obviously)

Allagan:
Vit 176
Mnd 240
Crt 82
Det 56
Spd 110
acc 51
pie 115

Daystar
Vit 176
Mnd 240
Crt 78
Det 65
Spd 76
acc 51
pie 105

My WHM BiS is usually "avoid spell speed"
Now there's also "but you need to keep some pie" as some things don't have pie on them!

Luckily Yagrush makes that pretty easy.

Nice to have some accuracy too. Still won't come close to caps with that little bit, but it'll help some!