DPS Misconceptions

I've played around as a DPS, healer and tank at level 50 and highly recommend everyone do the same before settling in on a favorite class. I'm definitely a much better healer and tank for having DPS'd and vice-versa etc.

However two common ideas are always brought up on the forums and it bothers me because they're just blatantly untrue.

1) Tanks (or healers) know the fight best.

I take umbrage with this as I find myself far more aware of fight mechanics as a DPS than either a tank or a healer. I suspect this is because healing and tanking inspire a kind of tunnel vision, since a large amount of your attention is devoted to looking at the party/enmity list and not the actual battlefield, and also because reaction times need to be faster on average.

Now why do I say this? Tanks are supposed to take damage and healers can prioritize their health over anyone else in the party (minus the other healer). A DPS has no fallback; learning boss patterns, when and where adds spawn, fight mechanics and phase changes is critical to avoid taking damage and risking a KO because the healer is too busy elsewhere. Healers can also take up static positions in many fights, whereas DPS are usually constantly on the move, chasing adds etc. and going in and out of "safe" zones, a hazard that healers don't have to deal with. Why do DPS have to experience these hazards? Because we are also usually tasked with things like feeding snakes (T1), feeding worm (Copperbell HM), killing eggs (Pharos) etc. which make us aware of boss stacks, hidden timers, etc. Additionally, I frequently find myself running all over the place chasing adds, especially in CT, and twice as much if the other DPS isn't doing their job and I have to run halfway across the map BECAUSE DAMMIT KILL THAT NAPALM @$#$@! /rant.

Anyway back on topic, I don't mean to say that healers are lazy and stand in one place spamming Physick/Cure. But I find my movement is much, much lower as a healer than a DPS and I can often find a "safe" spot to remain for the majority of the fight. This is almost completely irrelevant for a tank, obviously.

2) DPS derps/bad DPS aren't noticeable.

Now there are many DPS checks in the game where if the DPS is too low you wipe, but that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about DPS who don't follow marked targets and pull aggro. Or DPS that's too low on trash mobs and require me to blow CDs to survive what should be a fairly routine tank and spank. Reading the forums and being subjected to the whole "ehh DPS whatever" attitude I was completely unprepared when I started tanking and realize what a pain in the a** a bad DPS could be. After running a dungeon a few times, you definitely know when you have good dps and bad dps. I concede that their influence is less noticeable, but it isn't invisible. A tank or healer screw up is like a heart attack or stroke, instant and obvious. Bad DPS is like a cancer, maybe it takes a while to notice but it will definitely kill you.

Anyway, please stop spreading these misconceptions. It's probably the reason I frequently run into SMNs who don't use dots, BLM who think they can get away with spamming Blizzard, and DPS of all classes who blatantly ignore fight mechanics because they think they are somehow absolved of all responsibility to do more than just button mash.

P.S. Everyone should really try playing every class at lvl 50. I find myself enjoying healing a lot more than DPS which surprised me. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would actually find other roles more fun than the one they originally chose. Also it really does round out your knowledge about the fight, thus making you a much better player. Also then you can think to yourself, "wow, I didn't realize how much easier/harder it is on the other side" (I'm looking at you Titan).

Combating a misconception about DPS knowing less by creating a misconception stating DPS knows more is not exactly the best of ideas.

All 3 roles are equally as important, this is fact. But a downed/bad DPS is easier to recover from than a downed/bad healer or tank (because there are more of them) and this is where the idea that DPS is less important comes from. It's as simple as that.

Also I beg to disagree that DPS know mechanics better. It is a player trait if someone can pick up on mechanics easily or not, not a role trait.

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Also I beg to disagree that DPS know mechanics better. It is a player trait if someone can pick up on mechanics easily or not, not a role trait.

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Common sense is rare, you should be proud of yourself for having one.

You cherry pick certain abilities and mechanics and ignore others. Who have to watch for Mountain Buster? Who have to watch for double Wicked Wheel? Who has to know where to position the bosses to make things easier for the DPS to freely wail on them? Just because DPS have to deal with mechanics that require more movement doesn't mean they know more or pay more attention - oh, and the only reason some of those mechanics get delegated to DPS is because healers are busy, you know, healing. Knowing every detail of a fight isn't specific to any role. If you think healers tunnel vision on hp bars, or tanks tunnel vision on enmity bars, you're just as guilty of simplifying a role's responsibility as the ones you're trying to condemn.

Personally, I like to know all the mechanics of the fights so I can call bad DPS out (I've actually had groups ignore Satin Plume on Garuda - that was fun) or even help out (looking at you, Allagan Napalms).

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

Also I beg to disagree that DPS know mechanics better. It is a player trait if someone can pick up on mechanics easily or not, not a role trait.

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This is what I mean though. Oftentimes these misconceptions are stated as a inherent part of the DPS role, instead of player ability. I should have made that clearer. I don't mean to say that DPS will ALWAYS know it better, just combating the idea that tanks and healers will always know it better specifically because they are tanks and healers and not simply because they are being played by good players. I've seen DPS lead (not physically of course) parties where the tank is new and it works just as well as when a tank knows, and I understand why it's the default that people defer to the tank for leadership but it's created this idea that the DPS just run around and pew pew without a whiff of awareness.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

oh, and the only reason some of those mechanics get delegated to DPS is because healers are busy, you know, healing.

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See above for a response to the majority of your post but I just wanted to highlight this separately because I don't understand what point you're trying to make with this statement. I'm not saying DPS get those mechanics delegated to them because they know the fight better, I'm saying they know the fight better because they get those duties handed to them. For instance, if you play as a DPS/tank, then healer I think it's surprising to see how much stuff you were concerned with as either of those classes that simply don't concern you as a healer and for which you need to have exactly zero knowledge of to do a good job. There's no reason a healer knows the fight better because they're a healer. In some cases a healer is the person who can know the least amount and get away with it. Same with a tank.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

I don't mean to say that DPS will ALWAYS know it better, just combating the idea that tanks and healers will always know it better specifically because they are tanks and healers and not simply because they are being played by good players.

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And this is why I have a problem with your post. You don't combat a misconception by creating another.

You are saying over and over DPS will know fight better because they are DPS (even though you turn around and say player skill is involved). This is an inaccurate statement just like the statement "DPS know the least because they are DPS".

Also as a main healer I resent your remark that healer gets away with knowing the least about a fight. Sure, in an easy dungeon where any role is cake, I'll agree. But have you even tried doing Twintania or Ifrit EX or even Pharos to a degree as healer without having knowledge of nearly all of the mechanics?

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

For instance, if you play as a DPS/tank, then healer I think it's surprising to see how much stuff you were concerned with as either of those classes that simply don't concern you as a healer and for which you need to have exactly zero knowledge of to do a good job.

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I main healer, and I do play DPS; in fact, I'm 50 in all but LNC/DRG with relics for all of them, so I know perfectly well how fights work from a DPS perspective and I can tell you that most fights can be simplified down to "avoid AoEs, kill adds." The fact that you think the same works in reverse says only one thing: knowledge of fights has nothing to do with roles, only players willing to learn all the details.

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There's no reason a healer knows the fight better because they're a healer.

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In some cases a healer is the person who can know the least amount and get away with it. Same with a tank.

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Yes, I think we've already established this Mr. Repetitive. The problem here is that, like AmyNeudaiz is saying, you're arguing against oversimplification of DPS by oversimplifying tank and healer, hypocrite.

To put this into context, our White Mage in our Static, who we've been clearing Coil with for months now, only realised this week that the glowing panels during the Cad fight in Turn 1 spawned the Slimes :P 'I was wondering why the Bards start randomly taking damage...'

I'm in agreement with the OP to some extent, having now played every Dungeon and fight on my Tank and DPS (with the exception of Coil), and the majority on my White Mage. But just because you're a DPS doesn't just make you know the fight more. I just think each role learns the mechanics which are more relevant to them, but if a DPS learns the full mechanics, then great, but it doesn't make you a bad DPS by not knowing how EVERYTHING works either.

Titan XM as an example, on my Monk, all I need to do is avoid the AOE, kill the adds and kill Titan, while maintaining my stacks of GL, and as long as I can avoid stuff, the pattern isn't so important. As a Tank I need to know the pattern in order to pre-buff for Mountain Busters and when to tank switch, how to grab the adds, etc.

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Originally Posted by LukeyP666

Titan XM as an example, on my Monk, all I need to do is avoid the AOE, kill the adds and kill Titan, while maintaining my stacks of GL, and as long as I can avoid stuff, the pattern isn't so important. As a Tank I need to know the pattern in order to pre-buff for Mountain Busters and when to tank switch, how to grab the adds, etc.

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And against Titan HM, when we were <i70, the white mages had to know the pattern to cast an aoe heal in the middle of the tumult.

This is horribly biased, no single role knows more than any other role. It is purely down to the player and only the player. Everybody has a job, whether you do the job well is the players fault. An example being I was doing a low level roulette and this bard kept on pulling off the War (who was still new and didn't know optimal rotations) and he got horribly offensive when I told him he should slow down his DPS, yet it is entirely his fault that he pulled. Some players are either lazy, conceited, or stupid.

Every good tank/healer knows the immense value a knowledgeable and solid dps is.
It's the bad ones that will tell you its easy to DPS, so you can just ignore them

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

And this is why I have a problem with your post. You don't combat a misconception by creating another.

You are saying over and over DPS will know fight better because they are DPS (even though you turn around and say player skill is involved). This is an inaccurate statement just like the statement "DPS know the least because they are DPS".

Also as a main healer I resent your remark that healer gets away with knowing the least about a fight. Sure, in an easy dungeon where any role is cake, I'll agree. But have you even tried doing Twintania or Ifrit EX or even Pharos to a degree as healer without having knowledge of nearly all of the mechanics?

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I clarified that player skill is involved but I don't think it's wrong to say that the role comprises part of that player's knowledge. Since DPS are usually the ones given these tasks, I find theytend to know as much or more about a fight. For example, say DPS are always tasked with firing the cannon for the 2nd boss of Stone Vigil. A healer new to the dungeon comes in and a DPS says, "I got cannon." A healer then doesn't need to know anything about what the DPS is talking about and can heal the fight fine knowing exactly zero about how that works. Now, a good player can ask what the DPS means and have it explained, and it would make them a better player and a better healer, but before that point, the roles serve as a foundation for what you know and learn without putting in that extra effort.

So yes, what I said still stands. A healer (or tank) can get away with knowing the least about certain fights. Obviously Twintania and Ifrit EX are not one of them, but there are plenty of dungeons before then where it is totally possible. Even Pharos. A good DPS pair in Pharos can make that dungeon faceroll easy for a healer. A good healer on the other hand, can't do as much to alleviate the pressure DPS feel in that dungeon (killing and dodging).

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

I main healer, and I do play DPS; in fact, I'm 50 in all but LNC/DRG with relics for all of them, so I know perfectly well how fights work from a DPS perspective and I can tell you that most fights can be simplified down to "avoid AoEs, kill adds." The fact that you think the same works in reverse says only one thing: knowledge of fights has nothing to do with roles, only players willing to learn all the details.

Yes, I think we've already established this Mr. Repetitive. The problem here is that, like AmyNeudaiz is saying, you're arguing against oversimplification of DPS by oversimplifying tank and healer, hypocrite.

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Any fight can be simplified in the manner you describe. 'I know how fights work from a healers perspective and most can be simplified down to 'heal party members, remove debuffs' etc.

If you're not going to bother accepting my clarification, why bother responding? I think it's pretty obvious that it's not uncommon for people on the forums to dump on DPS because of the role and not the player. This almost never happens for healers or tanks. I'm not trying to imply the reverse, just calling out a specific behavior/attitude I see that usually goes one way.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

A good healer on the other hand, can't do as much to alleviate the pressure DPS feel in that dungeon (killing and dodging).

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But Pharos gets harder the more DPS is being pumped out. And...... Are you....... Is this guy like serious? You can NOT be THAT biased. It's just..... I have a headache and I need to lay down.

troll thread. buh bye now.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

But Pharos gets harder the more DPS is being pumped out. And...... Are you....... Is this guy like serious? You can NOT be THAT biased. It's just..... I have a headache and I need to lay down.

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I think this guy is saying "I know better coz I move more!"

He simply forgot that he can move more because the healer is busy keeping him alive so he can keep moving.

A good DPS doesn't mean jack if he's dead, is what I'm saying.

A good healer can make sure that the tank is alive so the next Mountain Buster is not targeted at YOUR FACE

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

But Pharos gets harder the more DPS is being pumped out. And...... Are you....... Is this guy like serious? You can NOT be THAT biased. It's just..... I have a headache and I need to lay down.

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You're misunderstanding. Good DPS doesn't just mean more DPS. It means taking out the appropriate adds, prioritizing the right mobs (barbers), not killing too many eggs at once, slowing down DPS to prevent speeding through phases, burning 3rd boss before healer gets too overwhelmed etc. Doing Pharos with a good pair of DPS makes healing a piece of cake, especially if tank stuns lunatic voice. I could not only keep everyone alive, but topped off 90% of the time. On the other hand, there isn't much I as a healer could do to make the DPS down adds faster, and perhaps I could silence Lunatic voice with Selene, but I prefer to use Eos during the Siren fight.

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Originally Posted by Raestloz

A good DPS doesn't mean jack if he's dead, is what I'm saying.

A good healer can make sure that the tank is alive so the next Mountain Buster is not targeted at YOUR FACE

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A good healer doesn't mean jack if they're dead either so...what was your point again? And you bring up Titan of all things as if DPS was somehow unimportant during that fight. Yeah, go in with 4 or 5 craptastic DPS. You won't even get to Mountain Buster.

Boss fights vary. Some are easier on some rolls while harder on others. Different fights require different roles to know different things.

In AK, once Anatoboga is in proper position the tank can just spam his enmity combo until the boss is dead while the rest of the party handles the majority of the work.

In several fights ranged and/or melee dps can tunnel the boss without caring about anything else.

I think people are reading too much into the post. He is just saying dps roles get a lot of abuse compared to tanks and healers. I read a post once where someone said a tank and healer could get through any dungeon by themselves. Exaggeration I hope, but shows disrespect to dps. Can't we all just get along?

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Originally Posted by EpicCid

I think people are reading too much into the post. He is just saying dps roles get a lot of abuse compared to tanks and healers. I read a post once where someone said a tank and healer could get through any dungeon by themselves. Exaggeration I hope, but shows disrespect to dps. Can't we all just get along?

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Nope, because bad DPSers is making the DPS community look bad.

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Originally Posted by EpicCid

I think people are reading too much into the post. He is just saying dps roles get a lot of abuse compared to tanks and healers. I read a post once where someone said a tank and healer could get through any dungeon by themselves. Exaggeration I hope, but shows disrespect to dps. Can't we all just get along?

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What I get from him is he thinks that DPS get ragged on too much so he rags on tanks and healers. People like this create a rift in the community.

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Originally Posted by Warrlordd

troll thread. buh bye now.

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pretty much

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

What I get from him is he thinks that DPS get ragged on too much so he rags on tanks and healers. People like this create a rift in the community.

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Where am I ragging on tanks and healers? My entire post is about how people have the misconception that DPS a) don't know fights, and b) don't influence fights as much as tanks or healers. I'm baffled at how you take a statement like "In some cases a healer is the person who can know the least amount and get away with it," and take it to mean, "healers don't ever need to know anything about a fight to get the job done".

I'm not even pointing the finger at tanks and healers and saying "you guys keep telling everyone that DPS are useless!" And I acknowledged that I could have been clearer at separating player ability from role derps, so I can't imagine why you're clinging to a blatantly false notion.

As a whm I do all I can to help in fight. When I have a good group and don't have to heal as much I cleric stance and spam Dps. Like others have said its a full group effort. I also try not to blame other roles cause the player could be having an off day. Sometimes I crash and burn a simple run. I started tank role to help me understand how to heal them better and I'm doing Dps to learn how to better chase them for heals since we healers just stand in one spot.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

I can't imagine why you're clinging to a blatantly false notion.

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You have stated the following in this thread:
DPS will know a fight inherently better than a tank or healer
Healers add nothing to help DPS in a run
Tank and healer mechanics are easier compared to DPS mechanics
Healers can get away with not knowing mechanics and tanks too

And you say these things because people rag on DPS.. How can one not take this as borderline sticking your tongue out and saying "I know you are but what am I"?

So if i play all three roles, suddenly I become more knowledgeable running the same instance on my dps than my healer or tank?

I think you take both of your DPS misconceptions out of context and go out of your way to misinterpret their common meanings.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

1) Tanks (or healers) know the fight best.

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In dungeons the tank leads the party, pulling mobs and controlling aggro and mob positioning. It doesn't matter if the rest of the party has this knowledge, it is the tank's responsibility. In primal fights and in Coil there is more responsibility to go around. "Tank has to know the dungeon," is a quote I can agree with though. Mostly healers follow the tank and DPS follow the mob the tank has selected.

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2) DPS derps/bad DPS aren't noticeable.

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If DPS is bad overall, that is easy to see. It's harder to single out which of your DPS is at fault and to what extent.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

You have stated the following in this thread:
1)DPS will know a fight inherently better than a tank or healer
2)Healers add nothing to help DPS in a run
3)Tank and healer mechanics are easier compared to DPS mechanics
4)Healers can get away with not knowing mechanics and tanks too

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1) The way current responsibilities are delegated, if 4/8 people who were totally new to a fight were given a list of things typically assigned their role and told to focus on those things only I think there are many fights where a DPS would be the most knowledgeable overall, though the best players would combine knowledge from all three roles. Obviously most people don't play in a vacuum, and it's really up to players what they do and don't know, but again, I'm talking about roles here and the way those roles are talked about in general, hence why the first subtitle is "tanks/healers know the fight better" not "people who play tanks or healers know the fight better".

2) I used Pharos as one example where a healer doesn't really add much to DPS beyond keeping them alive (which is a redundant point to make anyway) and you somehow took that to mean always. I can't help your reading comprehension there. Selene inherently disproves this point, though I don't use her in Pharos. As for a healer deciding to DPS, that is entirely up to a healer and beyond their job description.

3) Again, you took sometimes to mean always. Tanking Titan HM is absurdly easy, healers and DPS have it rough. Knowing where to lead Garuda and her sisters/provoke Spiny is rough on tanks, much easier on healers and DPS.

4) I will repeat a third time, sometimes but not always. Tanks may not (and really don't need to know) that a purple tether will form a destructive orb on the final boss of AK. Heck, they don't even need to know that adds spawn. All they have to do is stand in a corner and button mash. As long as the other roles know what they're supposed to do, that knowledge is completely irrelevant to a tank FOR. THAT. FIGHT. NOT. EVERY. FIGHT. WORKS. LIKE. THAT.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

run into SMNs who don't use dots

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Help them by killing them.

1) You are incorrect. Your reasoning earlier was that tanks and healers get tunnel visioned and that DPS had to deal with certain mechanics while ignoring the fact that ALL. ROLES. HAVE. DIFFERENT. AND. INEQUATABLE. MECHANICS. This is my main point here, I don't know why it hasn't gone through your head yet. Also, DPS get tunnel visioned too, you failed to mention that earlier because it would negate a prior point you made. Funny how bias works like that.

2) Yes, healers do add to DPS in all situations. Keeping them alive, although a given, is not the only thing a healer can do. Since you're a fan of throwing out cherry picked examples, WP is a perfect example. DPS can fight on the main boss while a Whm Holy spams the adds. Or better yet, in Twintania having the Sch throw out DoT's on Twin to make Twister phase go by faster. It is not beyond a healer's job description because all roles should do everything they can to make a run go smoother. This includes doing DPS on healer.

3) That is the most ambiguous point to make. Why even say it in the first place then?

4) Again being ambiguous with your points. "Tanks and Healers have it easy! All you have to do is take damage or heal.....errrr...sometimes...?"

You can't state double standards to your own argument and expect people to take you seriously.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

1) You are incorrect. Your reasoning earlier was that tanks and healers get tunnel visioned and that DPS had to deal with certain mechanics while ignoring the fact that ALL. ROLES. HAVE. DIFFERENT. AND. INEQUATABLE. MECHANICS. This is my main point here, I don't know why it hasn't gone through your head yet. Also, DPS get tunnel visioned too, you failed to mention that earlier because it would negate a prior point you made. Funny how bias works like that.

2) Yes, healers do add to DPS in all situations. Keeping them alive, although a given, is not the only thing a healer can do. Since you're a fan of throwing out cherry picked examples, WP is a perfect example. DPS can fight on the main boss while a Whm Holy spams the adds. Or better yet, in Twintania having the Sch throw out DoT's on Twin to make Twister phase go by faster. It is not beyond a healer's job description because all roles should do everything they can to make a run go smoother. This includes doing DPS on healer.

3) That is the most ambiguous point to make. Why even say it in the first place then?

4) Again being ambiguous with your points. "Tanks and Healers have it easy! All you have to do is take damage or heal.....errrr...sometimes...?"

You can't state double standards to your own argument and expect people to take you seriously.

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Frankly, I don't think you're really understanding what I'm trying to say because we almost completely agree on #2 and you don't even see it. You're calling me biased but you can't seem to let go of what you think I'm saying for what I'm actually saying, so I'm not going to continue this debate.

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DPS of all classes who blatantly ignore fight mechanics

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This why so many CT battles seem to fail.



It's also noticeable when a DPS is lacking or when someone (DPS or Healer) is under-geared.

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Originally Posted by Akeda

It's also noticeable when a DPS is lacking or when someone (DPS or Healer) is under-geared.

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I take it that you are either a tank, or you just ignored the fact that tanks too can be under-geared. Try running a Stone Vigil for example with a tank that has lvl 20 dps gear. Thats not only noticeable, it's also fairly impossible. With undet geared dps, it's noticeable cause it just takes a bit longer to kill everything.

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Originally Posted by drslaughtrr

I also try not to blame other roles cause the player could be having an off day. Sometimes I crash and burn a simple run.

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I know that feeling, and appreciate that mind set. I regularly clear EX Primals and T5, but every now and then I will do something even I can admit was dumb... like die to landslides on Titan HM xD

This is the kind of thing I was referring to. DPS totally useless and expendable (why are they even in this game? no one knows). This person gets bonus points for thinking healers don't do much either.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ks-in-the-game

Btw, this is what dumping on other classes actually looks like.