Crafting SP Variance

Has it been explained, or could someone from the development team explain, why such dramatic swings in SP for the same recipe? I've wondered this since my very first crafting session, and I've heard various people say - well, the SP you get is all based on quality or duration, or the combination of both, but I don't find that to be true at all, and see no correlation between that and SP. BTW, some of the SP swings can be very dramatic. It just so happens that the range in the examples below is not so large, but I've seen some huge disparancies, like 525 SP one synth, and 365 SP the next.

Currently, I'm grinding my weaver on velveteen shirt backs, and following is a sample of what I'm seeing. For anyone wanting to take a pot shot at the sample size, it's irrelavent. It is what it is, the #'s don't lie. The sample size could be 2 or 3 and the correlation between durability, quality, and SP may be evident. (D=durability, Q=quality)

• 1. D Q SP
     
  2. 67 28 348
  3. 40 37 304
  4. 31 09 287
  5. 70 22 312
  6. 32 15 341
  7. 54 37 320
  8. 48 28 329
  9. 47 40 290
  10. 81 29 278
  11. 68 29 342

If anyone sees any correlation, kindly let me know where. If it turns out the SP is ranged, that's very disappointing. SP for mobs isn't ranged, and neither should this be.

I'm more than a little surprised no one commented on this. Doesn't it bother you when the SP varies so, or does everyone know the answer to this, aside from me?

There is no formula to determine it based on quality and durability
this was theorycrafted back at launch, and lets just say its more like this

Base sp + X sp = total SP, where X = a random number that is unaffected by anything, just plain random

I always figured it was base SP + or -100, and depending on how hard the RNG wants to *** you that day you can either get more or less. But yes, it's irritating to be 1000 away, and get only 400 SP twice so you have to do a 3rd synth to rank.

If this is the case, then I don't think it's right. You don't get varying SP on a mob, it's based on rank. There's already way too much RNG in the success/fail coding. To have the coding randomly generate how much SP you get on a defined, rank recipe is just bullsh*t. Why in the world would anyone design this as such? When you're grinding 250-300 synths to rank up, there's a damn big difference in getting 500 SP vs. 350. This needs to be fixed, along with the other crafting issues, such as the over abundance of RNG in the coding, abilities that don't work, repairs 40 ranks below you that fail, random periods of 6-7 fails synthesis 'rage' mode (as I call it), etc.

Nothing is more disheartening than to spend 2-3 full days farming +3 items in hopes of a HQ only to have the synthesis fail the first 5-6 attempts on a recipe that's 15 ranks below you, or go unstable up to 3 times in a synth.

Like it or not, crafting is too big a part of this game for the coding to be this primitive and non-causal. I'm fully aware there needs to be some degree of randomness and luck in the game, but this is cop-out coding and whoever designed this should be fired.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zzapp

If this is the case, then I don't think it's right. You don't get varying SP on a mob, it's based on rank. There's already way too much RNG in the success/fail coding. To have the coding randomly generate how much SP you get on a defined, rank recipe is just bullsh*t. Why in the world would anyone design this as such? When you're grinding 250-300 synths to rank up, there's a damn big difference in getting 500 SP vs. 350. This needs to be fixed, along with the other crafting issues, such as the over abundance of RNG in the coding, abilities that don't work, repairs 40 ranks below you that fail, random periods of 6-7 fails synthesis 'rage' mode (as I call it), etc.

Nothing is more disheartening than to spend 2-3 full days farming +3 items in hopes of a HQ only to have the synthesis fail the first 5-6 attempts on a recipe that's 15 ranks below you, or go unstable up to 3 times in a synth.

Like it or not, crafting is too big a part of this game for the coding to be this primitive and non-causal. I'm fully aware there needs to be some degree of randomness and luck in the game, but this is cop-out coding and whoever designed this should be fired.

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crafting isnt killing mobs
yes it has a huge variable, and its not affected by quality and such(proof is that you dont get more for using +3 mats)

also if your failing that much using +3 mats on a low synth, YOU are probly the one doing something wrong, cuz ive never had that issue when i actualy have the proper recomended training ready(and am in crafting gear)


like it or not, its how it is, cant really argue with the facts

As has been discussed, there is a static value for when you complete a craft, but there is a fluctuating margin for random bonuses on top of that, so there will be a different value for the amount of SP you get for crafting the same item 10 times in a row.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

As has been discussed, there is a static value for when you complete a craft, but there is a fluctuating margin for random bonuses on top of that, so there will be a different value for the amount of SP you get for crafting the same item 10 times in a row.

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Are there any plans to change this?

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Originally Posted by Alzelia

Are there any plans to change this?

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I rather like my variable bonuses -- a certain percentage of something is better than a hundred percent of nothing. If I recover from an unstable and I manage finish AND with decent durability remaining, and suddenly the SP fluctuates by 100 - bring it on. I earned it.

If the rest of the convoluted aspects of XIV are any indication, there's probably the inherent base SP of the synth plus a bonus based too many variables to even be a useful mechanic to learn and try to maximize your benefit from; things such as durability, quality, successful actions, failed actions, skills used, total attempts, and on, and on, and on.

Basically speaking, "Efficiency" bonuses, "Overcoming Challenge" bonuses, and "Being Overqualified In Some Respect" nerfs.

However, all of these would then be calculated in a formula dependent on the difficulty of the synth, which is probably calculated by an equally complex algorithm based on things like: the synth's base difficulty, optimal attribute allocation, minimal stat requirements, support bonus, current gear enhancements, date and time elemental affiliations, and on and on and on, which are all of course - equally convoluted in their structure.

Complexity is only a fun challenge if, at the end of the day, you can overcome the puzzle and work it to your benefit.

All I want to know, Bayohne, is - if the system is studied long enough, can the variables be understood and thus adjusted to work in the benefit of the crafter by enhancing their SP consistently? If not, and the "bonuses" just come and go based on factors that can't be realistically and consistently controlled by the player, then "skillful play" is not even possible, and thus the system itself is needlessly complex and should be rethought.

Agreed. Simply put what are the bonus SP factors based on/can we figure them out?

I like to think of it as a reality check. When you hand-craft, for example, a rough diamond into a diamond suitable for a ring... no two rough diamonds are exactly alike, really. If they are, it's an incredibly unique occurance. Likewise, when you cut a diamond using only your hands, you don't cut it exactly the same every time. So basically, you always have variations in crafting - be that the amount you learn from what you do, the quality of the final item, etc. These things will vary because, despite it being a video game where the end result is an exact copy, it should still be given some sense of reality in that for us crafters, it's an authentic handcrafted piece of kit that is one of a kind. Just in our heads, but you know how it goes. ;)

While the individual SP from each item varies a lot, if you take the average you'll find that it is about half of the base physical exp given (After all the patches...).

So if you consider AVG SP gained, it is effectively static. As for the actual SP given, you can think of it as following a normal distribution about the AVG SP, i.e. it is random.

E.g. Same rank recipe gives 500 exp. AVG SP will be 250, and is independent of quality gained and durability.

Don't believe me? Just take down the SP gained for a single grind session and you'll see it.
If you want, take down the physical EXP gained too as a cross reference.

I brought this issue up in a thread long ago... I'd like to see it become static too, unless they make the bonuses known and have some kind of method to the bonuses. As of right now its all just RNG, and RNG is getting real old in this game.

And, it is not dependent on quality or remaining durability after completion. It's stupid to me. I would much rather see one static number for sp gains in crafting items than a bunch of random numbers, the same DoM and DoW get when they kill monsters. I dont see why crafting and gathering have to be different in that regard. We are a rank, the recipe is a rank.

If they were to show a static SP/exp, then a separate bonus SP/exp, then it would be much better. Right now its just RNG and this game uses it way too much.

First xp is based totally on quality. It's always difficulty + quality gained (end quality - starting quality).
SP is not only RNG. It's based indeed by your crafting.
Example: Finish an item with a blow is reducing the sp gained by estimated 100. Is the blow 1 step before, it could bring you 100 more sp.
I havn't done a total calculation, but it's more or less like this.
Some abbreviations:
SSO = successful synth without loosing quality
SSW = successful synth with loosing quality
FSO = Failed synth without elemental blow, (lost more quality than making progress)
FSB = Failed synth with elemental blow ( no progress gained, lots of quality lost)
WO= white orb
YO = yellow orb
RO = red Orb
+U = Orb is unstable, element out of control.
+S = with sparks

There is a base SP value by rank difficulty + (all your synthing progress in total/number of steps)
If you can finish the item, the formula above will be multiplicated by 2,5.
If you fail your job, the multiplicator is 1.

The synthing progress:
WO and SSO = gives onetime SP (quality+progress gained at this step - durability lost)
YO and SSO = gives 1,5 times SP (quality+progress gained at this step - durability lost)
RO and SSO = gives 2,0 times SP (quality+progress gained at this step - durability lost)
For +U the multiplier is 0,5 more.
For + S i have no idea.
For SSW, the same calculation is correct: quality has a negative value.

FSO and FSB: Not totally sure . I think the calculation is the same. As i said i have only calculated some synths and havnt parsed 1000.
Touch Up: Isn't calculated. SP is set after reaching 100%
Hasty hands: Half SP (probabably calculated at using normal synth untill finishing item)

There could be an RNG difficulty impact (multiplier) on SP. Sometimes when all others around you fail, you get more SP, implicating high or difficult RNG at this time.
But after investigating my synthing progress, the formula seems to be correct.
Because of the RNG, you got more unstable or red orbs, indicating you get a higher multiplier.

That is a lot of random things that we have no control over you have listed there... meaning it still randomly gained SP, even if all that were true, which it probably isn't.

Until they visualize the bonus gains in sp, it all can be considered randomization. Im sure yoshida and crew don't even really know what tanaka and crew programmed into it, which is why they haven't really given ANY big explanation on it yet. Without that explanation we can waste time speculating what it could be all we want, even tho it is just random gains.

What they really need to do is make SP gains one set value based on the item rank if they cant eventually visualize or explain the reason for variance.

Y'all are smoking crack here. Obviously SP variance is based on moonphase, direction, and weather! I craft in Cloister of Water all the time as BSM on new moon facing north and always gets the best SP! Being naked also helps.

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Originally Posted by jwang

Y'all are smoking crack here. Obviously SP variance is based on moonphase, direction, and weather! I craft in Cloister of Water all the time as BSM on new moon facing north and always gets the best SP! Being naked also helps.

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That is clearly the explanation we have all been looking for. TO THE WATER CLOISTERS!

First of all Yoshida and Crew are the same since 6 years. Only Yoshida got promoted and Tanaka, well. Yoshida is always writing, that it is so complicated to change things and if the hardcode would be lost, this game can be closed now. :rolleyes:
But in my opinion SE didn't programmed many things for themselves. They hired people to write a RNG generator for example. For low budget game studios this is common and i think the crew is working just with an construction kit with modules integrated. We call it White Crystal engine nowadays. These modules are the main problem.
YoshiP is a simple manager. Do you know what this means? He hasn't programmed or constructed anything. Maybe he is even not able to. He is just planing and coordinating.
Back to the problem. I also think, that his crew is too small. Most members are probably gamedesigners. Making textures and writing event scripts with the construction kit. There is this one battledesigner, we have heard of lately. And i doubt, that he even hardcode anything.
As you probably see for yourself. The knowledge of the gameengine is limited to a few people, which can hardcode and improve things. There are definetely modules like every gameengine has, that needs to be rewritten from scratch.
Those few people are to 99% not FFXIV Team members. The white crystal engine is used in many games and therefor it must be a special team or a team that even doesn't exist anymore. If SE uses 3rd party programmers for modules, it is even worse.

Topic random SP: If you really think SP shouldn't be "random" and you want the exact formula: OK.
But in my opinion you want just plain SP, no difficulty, not anything else.
"That is a lot of random things that we have no control over you have listed there... meaning it still randomly gained SP, even if all that were true, which it probably isn't."
No offence, but don't you think, you are a bit limited? I gave you a formula, but it is not enough.
You want total control over something, that is called a minigame. It is intended to vary.
If i go a step ahead, i would say, you want to skip this minigame and just pressing a key and there it is, your synth, like FFXI was.
Sure we want to know the basics of crafting like the thread starter. We have never seen an explanation in FFXI and we will never seen an exlpanation in FFXIV. That's the way YoshiP is doing it. He is the lead manager of both games. We can speculate like i did above, that most likely only one person has a clue about the synthing formula. But in the end it doesn't matter.

In my opinion the variety is so small. See the thread starters numbers. At higher difficulty synths, the variety is more evident, because the base SP is higher and so far every multiplicator has a bigger impact. But even then, you have an average SP output, that sums up for all of us to the same SP.
See my formula: all your synthing progress in total/number of steps = mean value.
We are all able to predict the total SP gained after 100 synths. And if you don't fail miserably, you can buy your items in advance to reach just a specific rank. I have done this many times.

FFXIV is like Linux. Everyone is programming on something. They make stupid mistakes on their own. They are independent developers and don't know, what other have done. More errors are following because of the combination. At the end, they compile against a kernel, which only a few people know about exactly. Someone announced the mixed up garbage as a stable operating system, although it's not.
Guess, who this someone could be for FFXIV?

SP is independent of actions taken or conditions (color of orb) during the process.
All you need to do is Hasty Hand something twice and you'll get 2 different SP values.

Hasty Hands is internally using the synthing options, we could do. An automatic calculation. You can see it easily , because it can fail, reduce your bar to half or succeed.
I have no proof but as programmer i would do it that way.