Throw awat the iLv system, implement a PvE Rank system.

The iLv system is completely broken, and currently locks out a large group of players from doing any post-story content, not to mention iLv is a horrid way of gauging skill. Please look into implementing a PvE ranking system instead.

I also dislike the iLv requirement system
but i dont know if a pvE system would fix that

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Originally Posted by Seifu

Please look into implementing a PvE ranking system instead.

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Exactly how would this work? From what I can tell, it would all come down to a grind. PvP has a ranking system, and that's mostly grinding too. iLvl isn't really any different.
That being said, I don't know of anyone who would conflate iLvl to mean skill.

And what would this "rank" system encompass?

Yeah, I support this idea. We could call it "level" and have different PvE encounters give different amounts of "exp" to increase your "level" at certain thresholds, with some sort of "level" cap. You have my vote.

The ilvl system is largely player controlled as SE has set the default ilvls for content pretty low. (and laughably so in a lot of cases) If anyone is to blame it's the community for creating ilvl requirements for Party Finder content higher than they need to be sometimes. You can always run in Duty Finder as the ilvl requirements are much lower there, and skill will have to take precedence over gear in this case.

As "broken" as the iLvl requirement might be, I'd dare to say it would still be better than the PvE rank requirement.

Well the ilvl to skill comparison has been greatly lessened since 2.1 came out. Before 2.1, being ilvl 90 generally meant you cleared a lot of coil and capped your weekly myths, both signs you put in a lot of time.

Now almost everyone is 85-90. My 5th job just hit 86 last night (4 are 90) and only bard is below 80. Point with that is that it's easy now. When 2.2 comes out ilvl will (for awhile) be a sign of skill and accomplishment, and then everyone will have it.
What we need are titles, visible titles, for actual accomplishments. Titles for beating Twintania before 2.1, titles for beating Twintania before 2.2 (and none after since that will be the big nerf). Titles for clearing content pre-nerf are great.

Ilvl doesn't gate a large group of people from doing content. There are requirements, yes, but if you don't meet them you are very unlikely to pass said content without being carried and none of the requirements are high (Ifrit Extreme would require full darklight and any weapon at or above level 70). I was actually pretty surprised at how low they set the requirements for many of these.

As for removing ilvl and replacing it with a PvE rank...you'd have to be more specific since that can mean a lot of different things as far as how that rank is generated. More than likely the result would be similar or the same, except that you wouldn't be able to increase your rank for alts without playing them the way you can collect gear for alts currently, resulting in gated content for players that actually can complete it. That or your PvE rank is character based, in which case you'd essentially have no requirements after your first job.

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

Titles for beating Twintania before 2.1, titles for beating Twintania before 2.2 (and none after since that will be the big nerf). Titles for clearing content pre-nerf are great.

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Not a fan of this to be honest. Missable stuff makes me panic (Yep, seasonal events I'm looking at you - side note: Are we getting those on a monthly basis now?) Especially when I have to go away for a month (work/vacation) and have to bully my brother into installing ARR and do those events for me >.> BUT at least they most likely will be repeatable the following year, if you happen to miss them the first time round. Unlike pre and post nerf achievements o_o;

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

Titles for beating Twintania before 2.1, titles for beating Twintania before 2.2 (and none after since that will be the big nerf). Titles for clearing content pre-nerf are great.

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Why does there need to be one for beating it before 2.1? There was no nerf to twintania in 2.1.

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Originally Posted by Nuinn

Not a fan of this to be honest. Missable stuff makes me panic (Yep, seasonal events I'm looking at you - side note: Are we getting those on a monthly basis now?) Especially when I have to go away for a month (work/vacation) and have to bully my brother into installing ARR and do those events for me >.> BUT at least they most likely will be repeatable the following year, if you happen to miss them the first time round. Unlike pre and post nerf achievements o_o;

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This is why they should stop nerfing content and give the rest of the community time to learn and complete it at their own pace. Now that people know they need to clear it for t6 access more and more players have been making an effort to clear it. SE may have forgotten that t5 was down/broken for quite a while.

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

Well the ilvl to skill comparison has been greatly lessened since 2.1 came out. Before 2.1, being ilvl 90 generally meant you cleared a lot of coil and capped your weekly myths, both signs you put in a lot of time.

Now almost everyone is 85-90. My 5th job just hit 86 last night (4 are 90) and only bard is below 80. Point with that is that it's easy now. When 2.2 comes out ilvl will (for awhile) be a sign of skill and accomplishment, and then everyone will have it.
What we need are titles, visible titles, for actual accomplishments. Titles for beating Twintania before 2.1, titles for beating Twintania before 2.2 (and none after since that will be the big nerf). Titles for clearing content pre-nerf are great.

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"SELLING PRE2.2 TWIN TITLE: 500k, DON'T BE CONSIDERED GIMP WHEN PATCH COMES"

I'd prefer not having to grind the same contents over and over again just to show people I have skills. :/

I agree with OP, iLevel it's something that kills content through new patches and it has many other negative (?) side effects. There is a reason why Naoki Yoshida and his team chose this way (Mainly it's easier to design, and keep a good pace with future patches. We shouldn't forget that Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn has been rebuild in only 2 Years). I would like to expose my thoughts about it, but 1000 words aren't enough. :/

they should implement a ping level instead of gear. The lower your level the more pro you are. /sarcasm Apart from the obvious excuse of people using lag as a way of compensating for skill, I think ilvl was implemented due to the end-game focus of this game. Its very hard to differentiate fresh 50's to seasoned ones, hence the ilvl.

I agree that something other than ilvl would be good.

I mean, even without the incoming nerf, coil is still not very difficult. Sure, you might say it is, but say, compare it to old 8-bit Nintendo. That was some brutal stuff! :p

I have 2 Allagan weapons, but what does that really mean? I could have bought them really! I did not, but even so. I think most people that have "earned" them got them the usual way, as paying a huge sum of cash might be more "difficult" than just knocking over Twintania as most of the difficulty is just having some decent friends that are willing to wipe with you for a while on it.

But think about it, so many people have killed Twintania and not gotten a weapon for their main class yet. They are no less skilled than those who have, they are just less "lucky". So, therefore, it would be nice for them to have some meaningful metric on their character to say they beat it.

Really, showing that you have completed various content isn't a show of how "skilled" you are, actually it shows something else important.

It shows how much you persevere! And, actually, that is the only metric that I would suggest that we measure.

There are lots of people that we would probably pass on playing with if we had the chance. They might even be well geared. But what is the difference? They are just simply people who don't want to try and haven't completed much content because they are impatient and don't keep friends around because they are abrasive. I don't think we should punish those people, I just think we should reward the "team players" out there. After all, this is a multiplayer game and as such, those who would play well with others should be rewarded. Those who are impatient and spread discord shouldn't be punished, but I think there should be a system in place to reward them if they decide to contribute more to the community. Otherwise, we are just breeding trolls.

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Originally Posted by Seifu

[...] and currently locks out a large group of players from doing any post-story content, [...]

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It locks players out of content that their gear is inadequate for (read: even if they do play well, they won't be able to pull their weight), doing everyone else attempting that content a HUGE favor.

Well I'm definitely not a favor of the WoW style ilvl approach. The constant carrot-on-a-stick gear mentality that we're always reaching for another 10 item levels. Achievements are kind of like a PVE Level though (granted PVP is involved in those) but things that show progression over gear do exist in the game. The way achievements are is that well, it shows how many dungeons you've cleared, how many raids you've done (to a point), how much crafting you do, leveling you do, etc.

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Originally Posted by Lurkios

It locks players out of content that their gear is inadequate for (read: even if they do play well, they won't be able to pull their weight), doing everyone else attempting that content a HUGE favor.

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Yes and with that, people can also just buy the gear they need. You can buy full ilvl 70 for like 500k (which you should have around 150k by the time you hit 50) and unlock all content. Or you can buy a few ilvl 70, do a couple dungeons, do your relic, and then suddenly you can do all content.

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Originally Posted by Daenerys_Sedai

That being said, I don't know of anyone who would conflate iLvl to mean skill.

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Open the party finder and you'll see them.

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

Yes and with that, people can also just buy the gear they need. You can buy full ilvl 70 for like 500k (which you should have around 150k by the time you hit 50) and unlock all content. Or you can buy a few ilvl 70, do a couple dungeons, do your relic, and then suddenly you can do all content.

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Don't forget, soon you can buy ilvl90 gear in the next patch. There was a recent article mentioning the new ilvl90 crafted gear. It will be expensive at first for the myth mats, however, farming it will be the standard farm routine.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Open the party finder and you'll see them.

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Setting an ilvl requirement simply means you want players with the necessary gear to complete content at the desired pace and success rate. It has nothing to do with skill.

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Originally Posted by Lurkios

Setting an ilvl requirement simply means you want players with the necessary gear to complete content at the desired pace and success rate. It has nothing to do with skill.

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Yeah, because you totally need ilvl75 for Titan HM, which can be completed with 4 players--

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Yeah, because you totally need ilvl75 for Titan HM, which can be completed with 4 players--

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Setting an ilvl requirement simply means you want players with the necessary gear to complete content at the desired pace and success rate. It has nothing to do with skill.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Yeah, because you totally need ilvl75 for Titan HM, which can be completed with 4 players--

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LOL, Once we finished it with 3 in a duty finder pug. The other 5 died promptly after the heart phase! Poor things, wait till they see extreme mode... ; ; At least my healer friend and I helped 5 others get their relics. Doing this at launch was alot harder, cause very few even had darklite, since farming it was more difficult back then (first 2-3 weeks of the game). You almost had to have everyone survive to kill it before Titan's stomps murdered everyone.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Open the party finder and you'll see them.

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I am not sure how that equates to skill. It's simply a matter of either a) What Lurkios said above; or b) Wanting to overgear for the fight. Nobody, at least in this forum or in my experiences in game, has ever made the statement: oh, he's ilvl 87, he must have leet skills (or something to that effect).

The "large group of players locked out from doing any post-story content" is already addressed by the old content being made more accessible, when new content is added. I don't see the need to rewrite the full game. Whatever the system will be, there always will be a large group of players not reaching the top tier.

So let me get this straight... Because we grind for gear, and for higher item levels, they are stupid and should be done away with, so let us implement a rank, which we grind for, that gives us stronger gear, so that we can do content that may, or may not need this gear, at the pace we wish to... And lock out story content while we're at it? Wonderful.

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

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Titles for beating content before X do not work as a measure for skill. A player can be perfectly good and not beat certain content due to lack of time, will or even just finding a group to do it. Also, players that started playing the game later cannot get said titles at all, no matter his / her skill. It's a good metric, but not perfect. In fact, there's no perfect way of knowing one's skill other than actually playing with the person. Ilv at the very least allows us to know beforehand if a player's gear meets our requirements; the only true way of checking skill is actually playing together, there's no other way.

With that said, you can check first kill date for most important content by checking the achievement page. If knowing when someone beat X so important to you, just check his achievement page.

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Originally Posted by Daenerys_Sedai

I am not sure how that equates to skill. It's simply a matter of either a) What Lurkios said above; or b) Wanting to overgear for the fight. Nobody, at least in this forum or in my experiences in game, has ever made the statement: oh, he's ilvl 87, he must have leet skills (or something to that effect).

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Actually a lot do think that. You are on the same server as me, so I'm surprised you try to claim otherwise. It is really terrible on Sarg. *They've cleared content, and have i90 pieces, so they must be good.* Honestly the ilvl reqs are a joke. I cleared Garuda EX > Ifrit EX in a weekend on my MNK alt with i72 gear. I out dps'd everyone in the party, was always last one standing, and on all fights it was my first clear as a MNK (I did go MNK one time on main for Titan EX to give some FC people practice, they didn't get past heart). Even with all that said, I can't get into most EX parties currently because of ilvl lockouts, and I'm ilvl81 now. Most Garuda farms lockout melee, and ask for i85+. I never get hit by wicked wheel, and any i80+ parties I join I out DD the other ranged by 50-90 each time. It is really rather sad, especially considering MNK loses its GL3 about every phase change.

/endrant

ilvl req's put in place by SE is fine, they are reasonable and know the minimum amount to complete content. It is pretty sad to see the playerbase rely so heavily on them as some marker of completing fights. Most the time the players are terrible, regardless of ilvl.

All that said, cleared content isn't much of a marker toward rank either. There is always small exceptions, but I'd find the system just as abrasive if not more so toward new players, and people without the time to run on the raid treadmill as much as others. Asking for experience for content needing experience isn't a bad thing. I've seen people in T5 weapons eat dirt just as much on Titan EX as about any other. Skill isn't easily measured.

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Originally Posted by Lurkios

Setting an ilvl requirement simply means you want players... to complete content at the desired... success rate. It has nothing to do with skill.

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Fundamentally contradictory statement, since it can easily be completed at ilvl57 with competent players and will still be hopeless at ilvl75 with crappy players.

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Originally Posted by Traek

I cleared Garuda EX > Ifrit EX in a weekend on my MNK alt with i72 gear. I out dps'd everyone in the party, was always last one standing, and on all fights it was my first clear as a MNK (I did go MNK one time on main for Titan EX to give some FC people practice, they didn't get past heart).

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Ha, I feel ya. The fun thing about playing a DPS over a tank is that you get to see this awesome bar that shows how bad everyone else really is. Ain't nothin' like tanking a giant, being eaten by KB, and being eaten by Acheron due to tank deaths all in the same run... with i71 gear.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Fundamentally contradictory statement, since it can easily be completed at ilvl57 with competent players and will still be hopeless at ilvl75 with crappy players.

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This may be true, but I think one of the reasons people set the ilvl higher for fights like Titan HM is because with a higher ilvl requirement, there's a greater chance at getting players who are competent. It's not a guarantee by any means. It just helps your odds.

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Originally Posted by NaliaBrown

This may be true, but I think one of the reasons people set the ilvl higher for fights like Titan HM is because with a higher ilvl requirement, there's a greater chance at getting players who are competent. It's not a guarantee by any means. It just helps your odds.

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Which is quite explicitly conflating gear level and skill.

*sigh* I'm not actually arguing for or against either side of this argument. I'm just trying to explain why some people set the ilvl higher for fights like Titan HM in party finder.

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Originally Posted by Seifu

The iLv system is completely broken, and currently locks out a large group of players from doing any post-story content, not to mention iLv is a horrid way of gauging skill. Please look into implementing a PvE ranking system instead.

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I specially like how you detailed your vision of such PvE ranking with all your wisdom, saving the devteam a lot of time.

Yes lets just have no endgame progression at all, so every swinging dick in darklight can do everything and get bored and unsub. Genius, fucking genius.

i90 gear is not hard to acquire. There's a vendor that sells it for mythology tokens. Most of the current content can be done in i80 gear. Hell we've been doing coil since i70 and a couple pieces of mythology gear was bleeding edge of what could be acquired.

Sometimes I wish this game was absurdly brutally difficult like FFXI just to sieve people like the OP from making threads like this. I'd like that nerd to know what it's like to farm tigers in batallia downs for 4 months just to save up enough money to buy a single piece of gear that wasn't even best in slot. Maybe then he'd have some fucking perspective, instead of whining about shit that's basically handed to you.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Fundamentally contradictory statement, since it can easily be completed at ilvl57 with competent players and will still be hopeless at ilvl75 with crappy players.

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Saying things does not make those things truths. If you're attempting to deny that you have a better chance of completing content in an efficient manner with a random sampling of ilvl75 players than you do with a random sampling of ilvl57 players you are a fool.

Keep the ilvl requirements for content in the hands of the devs. The general public should not be allowed to set ilevel requirements in PF because most of them are terrible at their jobs and are setting ilevel requirements way too high to make up for that. Maybe this will force people to actually "get good"?

I cleared coil (1-4) and hm primals with a group of people at ilevel 60-70 and no crafted accessories. Now it's not uncommon to see PF groups for this content at 80+. I see plenty of people who have full i90 and do awful dps compared to people with less gear.

Competence, ilvl, player lvl are totally unrelated. At each pug, you may find good, bad and average people, whatever the ilvl you setup.

Competence is something you need to acquire with experience. You can read all the guides on the internet, but until you don't actually go into the fight, they are just words. You cannot learn from the internet how don't panic and what to do when something gone wrong and needs be recovered, and how correctly avoid the mob skills.

Player level is something that is just grinded. After some time, everyone gets 50. It means, it is totally irrelevant as a measure of competence.

Armor ilvl, can be grinded by tomes, again is irrelevant.

What is left to you, is treasure the good players you find and play with them. Maybe in same FC, more fun too. Making automated systems to find the "good" players, is something like asking someone else to do your job.

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Originally Posted by Traek

It is really terrible on Sarg. *They've cleared content, and have i90 pieces, so they must be good.*

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Sad times on Sarg. I guess I have been fortunate to avoid those groups or parties. Nonetheless, I think we both agree that iLvl does not equal competent player.