Limit break changes suggestions

There's an imbalance in the amount of times that each limit break is used. So i'd like to suggest some changes that I think would make the other limit breaks more desirable.

First, melee and Mage are fine to be honest. They can be used tactically or just for fun and they're still effective.

Healer LB, the only time this is used is the T3 version, why? AoE raise. My suggestion for this is simple, add AoE raise to all 3 tiers of the LB, but T1 comes with double weakness on half weakness timer, tier 2 comes with weakness on half weakness timer and T3 comes with no weakness.
This way the healer limit break will be effective at any time when half the party is down rather than having to wait to T3.

Tank, might seem a bit more radical, but if you think about it it's suitable. Basically I want the effect to be the same as it is now, but have an additional effect of fatal blows will reduce hp to X% of current hp. Where X is the power of the limit break. E.G T1 = 10% damage reduction, so on a killing blow you would have your hp reduced to 10% of its current value. This would apply to any killing blow including primal specials, ultima, ecliptic meteor, and even just a regular hit that would otherwise kill you.

This would make the limit breaks work in a more scaled fashion, damage limit breaks would be used when you're having a smooth run, tank would be used when you mess up a mechanic and save you, and healer would be used when you're on the verge of a wipe.

What are everyone else's thoughts? What else would you change?

Guess you never ran through Ultima HM, huh?

Tank LB is also good in Garuda EX if too many pillars died for one reason or another, or if Spiny died too early

Um... Yes I've run both of those and never had to use the tank LB...

Where did you get your numbers, or did you just make them up, the limit breaks were put in so that no content would require them, but you could use them to make up for a mistake, or to speed up as you see fit. One reason tank and healer limit breaks aren't used as often is they take better timing to pull off to be useful, and most groups just wipe and start over if there is a major screw up. Most parties I have been in on Ultima hard mode use the tank limit break already, it can be useful on learning T4 for the last drops if your healers and tanks are having trouble managing 2 dreadnaughts, or on Garuda if you loose too many stones, or Garuda Extreme if party members are low health running into the spiny area in the twister>center transition.

What numbers? I only used 10% for tank T1 LB which I got off gamer escape wiki. And my suggestions don't make them required, they make them useful for when you make a mistake, eg don't kill all ifrit's nails you'd prevent a wipe, don't kill titan's heart you'd prevent a wipe etc. They also don't change the current usefulness of the LB that you've described, they just add extra usefulness to it. And healer LB would just spread the useful part of it across the entire LB rather than just T3.

I was asking where you got the numbers for how often each limit break was used, the 70/20/10/0% numbers.

Those mechanics like not killing Ifrit nails or Titan's heart are meant to wipe the party, they are a dps/mechanic check, if you can't do that you aren't meant to pass the content, you shouldn't be able to limit break past a "must pass checkpoint" to limp yourself through content. As for the healer limit break, it can be useful, people just choose not to use it unless it's T3, but I think a tier 1 or 2 could be used just fine if your group took a big friction hit on Garuda Extreme if for some reason your group didn't have a bard, it's a mp free heal that I would rather see used than the caster limit break that barely touches Garuda's health, just because you or your group chooses not to use it, doesn't make it useless, experiment with them some, you could end up having some fun, or maybe finding more use for them.

Yea, cause I have never, ever used my limit break. Nope, never. Your facts are 100%, no dispute.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

I was asking where you got the numbers for how often each limit break was used, the 70/20/10/0%

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Those are just made up from general observation of when people use the LB.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Those are just made up from general observation of when people use the LB.

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So by your logic, me and my friends play a Paladin, Scholar, Bard, and Black Mage when we run 4 man dungeons, so since we don't see the other jobs in those dungeons, they have no use in this game and are never played in 4 man content. Just because you don't use it, doesn't mean others haven't found uses for them.

No by my logic unless you're playing a completely different game to me you'll have noticed the same trends in LB use I have... If you deny there is an imbalance in the times LB are used you're just being stubborn, there's no way to claim that the tank LB or healer LB get used anywhere near as much as the damage LBs I'm simply trying to suggest ways to change that, not argue whether it's true or not.

Tanks getting to use their limit break in 1-2 end-game boss encounters isn't acceptable. Anyone who thinks it is okay for DPS classes to be the only ones who get to limit break 1-50 isn't thinking straight.

Limit breaks need to be completely retooled anyway. They should be individual abilities, and the party shouldn't share a meter. Making limit breaks party-shared just leads to unnecessary trolling in Duty Finder groups.

In T5 you use Caster Limit, Ultima Hm Tank Lb, as well in Garuda Ex and Hm, could also use it in T4 as well.

It sounds like to me you don't do any content outside of 4mans.

by your logic, the number i observe would be 50/30/15/5 % then which is no where near the number you posted.
Tank LB mostly use in Ultima HM and Garuda Xm.
Healer LB msotly use when *** hit the fan, but most of the time ppl will get kill right after res, if LB was use on wrong timing LOL
Caster LB is mostly for AOE, Titan Xm if you malee was dead during add, Garuda Xm + her sister, T5 snake, and where ever u want AoE Nuke lol
Malee LB is mostly whe you want to focus damage to 1 target. like force the boss to change phase or make the mob die faster.

You're arguing an irrelevant point, wasn't even gonna post those numbers originally and I can edit them out if they're causing you to get stuck. like I said I'm not arguing the fact that there is an imbalance I'm suggesting how to change the imbalance I know is there.

Nope, just no.

Maybe there would be something to discuss if you didn't pull numbers out of... nowhere (besides your head and your personal observations, we know), and actually used the search to add something to an existing thread about the issue, all of them arguably more useful than yours.

I agree that ranks 1 & 2 of the Healer LB are underwhelming. Maybe have it also restore mana? Or have ranks 1 & 2 revive 1 or 2 (respectively) random players in the group? Something else at least. The heal alone doesn't seem enough to justify using it.

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Originally Posted by cotti

Nope, just no.

Maybe there would be something to discuss if you didn't pull numbers out of... nowhere (besides your head and your personal observations, we know), and actually used the search to add something to an existing thread about the issue, all of them arguably more useful than yours.

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There, numbers are gone, has the point of the thread changed? No, does your post contribute anything to the thread anymore? No. You're clearly off point. If you're going to post, contribute don't try to derail the thread.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I agree that ranks 1 & 2 of the Healer LB are underwhelming. Maybe have it also restore mana? Or have ranks 1 & 2 revive 1 or 2 (respectively) random players in the group? Something else at least. The heal alone doesn't seem enough to justify using it.

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Star example of someone contributing, by suggesting an idea to make the LB more desirable.

The healer LB already does restore 33%/66%/100% MP (it may be 25%/50%/100%, but it does restore MP) depending on the level, but it is still rarely used. I do think the raising random targets for each level could be nice, I think it would have to give priority to tank>healer>dps though. The tank LB is laughable in uses, I've never seen it used in anything except when we were still learning T5 (for the pull before the meter gets wiped). I honestly think for tank LB, it should be a super potent type of stone skin or something. Maybe consisting of 25%/50%/100% total HP stone skin (I don't think making it save you against enrage / instant wipe mechanics is a good idea though). Bard LB needs reworked, or just rework bard in general (this is obviously for a different thread, but just throwing it out there because it slightly relates).

However, I am still on both sides of the fence about how LB works / charges in this game. Obviously it is meant to be a group decision of which one you want to use as it is now. It feels unfair that most people never get to use theirs except for in niche situations just because of the job they chose. With that being said, LBs would have to be toned down WAY more for everyone to be able to get their own LBs and use them whenever the situation comes up.

I like the stoneskin idea, reminds me of those FATE NM's that get stoneskin and if you try to solo them it takes ages to get through it cause of how much hp they have.

I agree that archer/Bard should get a different LB too, but yeah that's a different thread, ironically one I also made a while back.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...62#post1623562

What's the big deal with not having equitable limit breaks being used? Numbers aside, it doesn't really seem to be a big deal. I guess maybe cover off what about this is disturbing and needs to be changed?

No matter what they do with limit breaks, I think it will always be dps limit breaks being used the most, unless they start putting out content that revolves around tank/healer limit breaks, and they have already said that isn't how limit breaks are meant to be used. So no matter what you will be left with some sort of take less damage, heal the party, or do more damage, and the answer will almost always be do more damage because if you do more damage the fight is over sooner, so there is less damage to take, and less to heal, that is the mentality of these games, that's why so many more people play damage dealers over tanks or healers. Most groups if you had to use a tank or healer limit break, the solution would be get better tanks or healers, we have seen this isn't the case with damage dealers, look at Titan, how many groups used to build bars because they couldn't kill the heart without a 2 bar limit break, if you needed a tank to limit break to survive mountain buster, you would tell him to get better gear.

Honestly, I am just saddened by the fact that instead of a bunch of varied LB's that give a class some character, we get 3 different kinds that encompass the same deal.

I'd rather have a different look depending on who cast it that could be grouped in the same DMG type

Caster DPS have their AOE but the graphical look of the LB is unique to the class

Melee DPS

Tank

Healer


etc etc....so a Scholar and WHM would have LB's that are the same functionally, but graphically they are different.

Hope I got my point across, I already typed too much.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

Honestly, I am just saddened by the fact that instead of a bunch of varied LB's that give a class some character, we get 3 different kinds that encompass the same deal.

I'd rather have a different look depending on who cast it that could be grouped in the same DMG type

Hope I got my point across, I already typed too much.

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New Warrior LB.

http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Epic+Fi...ca_4956423.gif

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

No matter what they do with limit breaks, I think it will always be dps limit breaks being used the most, unless they start putting out content that revolves around tank/healer limit breaks, and they have already said that isn't how limit breaks are meant to be used. So no matter what you will be left with some sort of take less damage, heal the party, or do more damage, and the answer will almost always be do more damage because if you do more damage the fight is over sooner, so there is less damage to take, and less to heal, that is the mentality of these games, that's why so many more people play damage dealers over tanks or healers. Most groups if you had to use a tank or healer limit break, the solution would be get better tanks or healers, we have seen this isn't the case with damage dealers, look at Titan, how many groups used to build bars because they couldn't kill the heart without a 2 bar limit break, if you needed a tank to limit break to survive mountain buster, you would tell him to get better gear.

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It's interesting, your Titan example is basically the reasoning I had for my changes to the tank LB. Sometimes the damage dealer doesn't use the LB or uses it too late and Titan jumps. At this point the tank could LB, the earthen fury would go off everyone would get put down to 10%-20% hp based on which LB you had, tank would need a benediction everyone else get a medica spam then the fight would go on. In this case the tank LB saved the run from a mistimed LB from the DD. I've seen this failure to use the DD LB happen a lot, particularly in the duty finder where there's a lack of communication and it's these situations that inspired my tank LB change.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

Honestly, I am just saddened by the fact that instead of a bunch of varied LB's that give a class some character, we get 3 different kinds that encompass the same deal.

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Much of this game was rushed to get it out, more limit break animations would have just been more for them to do in the time they had, and it would be something else they would have to add every time they added new classes and jobs, the look really doesn't even bother me now, half the time I limit break on monk I just stand there, or someone else asks if it went off, because the animation didn't show up on their screen, so to me more animations would just be more flash that doesn't process half the time.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Much of this game was rushed to get it out, more limit break animations would have just been more for them to do in the time they had, and it would be something else they would have to add every time they added new classes and jobs, the look really doesn't even bother me now, half the time I limit break on monk I just stand there, or someone else asks if it went off, because the animation didn't show up on their screen, so to me more animations would just be more flash that doesn't process half the time.

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Doesn't it bug you though that especially as a Monk, your limit break involves swords......Call me strange, but that bothers me to no end.

I want to see a Zell or a Tifa or a Sabin type LB on a monk.

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Originally Posted by Karnyboy

Doesn't it bug you though that especially as a Monk, your limit break involves swords......Call me strange, but that bothers me to no end.

I want to see a Zell or a Tifa or a Sabin type LB on a monk.

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Isn't the T3 LB final heaven? That's tifa's ultimate LB. I still agree with you that T1 and 2 look weird on monk and dragoon, but a monk one is in there.

the tank changes wouldn't work, it'll require SE to change the Primal fights completely, or even all the end game fights, but it doesn't matter since when the instance hard enrages you are going to die regardless. IE: Twintania will just spam Aetherial Profusion endlessly if you don't kill her in 12mins, no amount of Tank LB will save you from this, unless they add a pseudo invincible/invulnerable into the Tank LB...

I fully agree that Healer LB should ALWAYS be an AoE Raise. Infinite range (meaning it will raise EVERYONE, even those bumped by landslide or repel or that other Titan EX move)

The Raise weakness penalties are already way too big as is, so even if Lv1 LB would raise people with 20% HP (with their MaxHP reduced by 20% iirc) it wouldn't make it broken/overpowered/too easy.
Level 1 Healer LB is not much different from casting Cure3 or maybe even Medica on a ilv 90 WHM...
A Level 1 DPS LB definitely causes WAY MORE DAMAGE than any DPS skill any DPS class can perform even at ilv 90, so there's a HUGE imbalance here.

For tank LB, my wish is that it was like this:
Lv1: 10sec invincibility (like Hallowed Ground)
Lv2: 10sec invincibility + reflect damage (roughly like Vengeance)
Lv3: 10sec invincibility + reflect damage + absorb 20% of damage damage dealt as HP (like Bloodbath)

(For level 3 it could also absorb a portion of the damage sustained instead of damage inflicted)


This would allow decent variety and new strategies, since using Tank LB to reflect damage could eventually cause damage comparable to a DPS LB, if the enemy uses a strong AoE.
(DPS checks mechanics, like Titan's Heart of Ifrit's Nails would be "immune" to Reflect damage naturally, since Titan and Ifrit would be invulnerable to damage when doing their Wipe skill when you fail their DPS checks)





For those saying "oh but you use Tank LB on Ultima HM, Garuda EX (really?? when I use it on pugs people curse me and my 10 future generations) and on T4 (never had to use it but I suppose I'd be even more cursed from other players)" do you really really think it's ok that Tank LB has like 3 or 4 battles where it's important IN THE ENTIRE GAME while the DPS LB is better for, like all the other 100+ boss fights on the game?

This is also HUGELY and shamefully UNBALANCED.

OP has a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Dano

the tank changes wouldn't work, it'll require SE to change the Primal fights completely, or even all the end game fights, but it doesn't matter since when the instance hard enrages you are going to die regardless. IE: Twintania will just spam Aetherial Profusion endlessly if you don't kill her in 12mins, no amount of Tank LB will save you from this, unless they add a pseudo invincible/invulnerable into the Tank LB...

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Not really, you just don't know primal fights (because they cheat through even LBs)

Titan EX for example

tank LB :Worthless, it won't absorb certain things like gero crush. They developers didn't want you to bypass super bombs with tank lb, so it wont. end of story on that.

healer LB : worthless as well, the cast time on it is stupid. They timed it such that no phases you can get away with a healer LB to bypass any mechanics of titan.

Melee LB: decent, but it's based on pt combined power. With the cast time...it's really near pointless as if you have 8 people alive for the damage multiplier of titan, you wouldn't need a LB, from the way the phases are structured.

Caster LB: probably the most useful in titan since you can wipe out the adds with chaos that comes from landslides and puddle placement.


LBs do not change fights because they script it that way. Reason tank lb and healer LB are worthless many many times. Healer especially is worthless most of the time because with the cast time, the weakness, and the animation, you are dead right back down...it doesn't even have infinite range.

It's basically SE's immature battle planners. They are so paranoid of balance they unbalance things doing the exact opposite. Battles are so scripted LB is just an eye candy in the greater scheme of it. Reason Melee or caster LB is the "goto" LB.

The healer LB really is underwhelming given its niche use. The only time people will want to use the healer LB is LB3 and even then only if something truly horrible has happened to the party. Chances are if you ever need to use the healer LB, you've already lost the fight.

The tank LB is equally underwhelming considering it is basically just a short duration damage buff, and not a particularly strong one. I believe at it's zenith it only blocks 40% of incoming damage. Given that a team should be dodging the majority of attacks, that makes it only useful for a handful of occasions where damage is unavoidable.

I'd like a Tank LB which not only gives you a damage reduction, as it does currently, but also increases block rates to 20/35/50% for double the DR duration for the entire party. Blocking reduces the damage taken by an additional margin, and at 50% it has a chance of preventing a decent amount of damage overall. Further, with the DR duration being shorter than the blocks it remains balanced.

As for healer LB, I'd like to see it apply a 10/20/30% stoneskin effect to all party members based on LB level. At LB3 this ensures that any weakened players have a fighting chance of getting back into the fray, and at lower levels it gives it greater utility.

As for DPS LB's, I don't think they need many changes, but it would be nice to have some unique animations depending on what class uses it. Meteor can remain a BLM skill, Grand Summoning could be a SMN skill, Final Heaven still reserved for monk while Omnislash is now a Dragoon skill. Oh and for goodness sake, give Bards an actual DPS skill. You've clearly labelled them as a DPS class, so don't you think it's time they were afforded ALL the perks of the role?

Just a thought at least.

Limit breaks are incredibly boring; even more so being that they are available to only one person (usually melee dps). Why not offer everyone the opportunity to have their own limit break gauge? In something like FF7, I always looked forward to my limit breaks charging up because they were all unique, useful, and looked cool! I think SE did a really good job on meteor and the melee dps one, however we should all be able to have the opportunity to pull something flashy and useful out during a battle.