Aggro, threat generation, and pugilists...

So i just invited a couple of friends to join me in FF14. Excited. One of them is likely going to go healer, the other a caster. So what I'm wondering is how the aggro mechanics work in FF14...

Thus far, i notice that no matter how hard i slam an enemy, i cant steal aggro. Pugilists have some pretty good survival skills that would allow me to take a considerable amount of hate for a while, contingent on being able to take it and then let it go and give it to another combatant when i've done my part.

However i havnt been able to figure out how that works. As far as i can tell, the guy who started attacking first, keeps 100% of the aggro. If a mob goes after some one, and they start dying, i have no way to step in and apply myself to keep that from happening.

Further, i've gone as far as to stand there and stop attacking, but i cant get aggro off of me once a mob has me in their sight.

I'm wondering if i'm doing something wrong or if this is just how the game works.

So the enmity mechanics generally revolve around the tank (gladiator/paladin and marauder/warrior) using their skills like Rage of Halone and Overpower to keep the hate on them. Many tank skills have an enmity multiplier so the enemies stay on said tank, giving the healer one target to focus on. That's why there are 3 roles in the game for the various classes/jobs. Tanks keep the mobs on them, damage dealers (DD/DPS) do exactly what the name implies, as does the healer role.

Generally, enmity is gained through damage and HP healed (healers get enmity when they heal) and build up each hit/heal. However, tank skills like Overpower, Flash, Savage Blade, and Skull Sunder have an enmity multiplier on them for when they use the attack. The multiplier for tank actions like these is meant to keep the hate on them so no one else takes gets hurt (or gets hurt less often in some cases). If the tank decides to slow down on using or not to use their enmity attacks they will lose hate pretty quickly. Tanks do little damage in comparison to DPS jobs like Pugilist/Monk, but they get the highest defense armors and most HP in the game.

Say you get a gladiator tank in Copperbell Mines, on the first group of enemies he pulls one and does Flash once (no damage AoE aggro) to get hate on all three of the mobs and proceeds to focus only on one of the three. One of the DPS decides to attack a mob the tank isn't focused on. That DPS will go up the enmity list for that mob pretty quickly and said mob will turn to attack the DPS wailing on it. The tank can take the hate back with his skills despite the comparatively little damage output he has to the DPS.

As a Pugilist/Monk, you want to do as much damage as possible without taking the hate from the tank in party situations. Generally, if you're focusing on the mob the tank is it will never be an issue and you can go all out with your combos. Non-tank jobs taking hate from the tank can be a nightmare for healers if things get out of hand. It gives them more targets to heal and the cast times mean they may not be able to keep up. If a DPS or healer dies it can mean slow going to kill a monster or a complete wipe and having to try again (luckily not from the very start lol).

If no one in the party is pulling hate from any mob on the tank, the tank is doing his or her job right. That said, it's general consensus to fight the mob the tank is focused on or is marked by number in order (1 then 2 etc.) unless the mechanics of the fight need everyone else to take on additional monsters (like during some boss fights). It makes everyone's jobs easier. The tank keeps everything needed on him, the healer only really needs to focus on one target, and the DPS burn down one enemy at a time (unless certain mechanics dictate otherwise which you'll see in in the game a bit later on).

I hope that wasn't too convoluted or anything. Hope you all enjoy the game! :D

The only classes that get skills to increase enmity (threat) are gladiator and marauder (the two tank classes). Your defensive skills are there to keep you alive when soloing, or when you manage to steal hate.

Apart from those skills, enmity is a matter of damage dealt and cures given (Curing past full HP still gives the full enmity for how much it would cure). Buffs also add a certain amount of enmity, though not much.

If you are concerned about being able to off-tank and save your friends if they pull, it is certainly possible. It may require one of the other members to slow their dps or healing for you to catch up, and take it back, but it is certainly possible.

Essentially enmity is a tally of point totals affected by a multiplier. Assume over the course of a fight, you deal 2000 damage and the tank deals the equivalent of 2500 damage (with adjusted enmity bonus). Since the tank's total is higher, he has higher enmity and retains aggro. If at one point in the fight you exceed the total on the tank, the target will switch to you and you will have aggro until the tank can exceed your total. Healing works in much the same way, although the multiplier is a somewhere less than that for damage.

Keep in mind your basic attacks, dots, and heals over time will continue adding to the totals. Similarly, the tank will have to work to pull mobs off you at this low level (they don't have as many enmity stealing abilitiies at lv.20). Keep an eye on the enmity meter that appears below your class/job icon in the party ui. That will tell you how much enmity you have on that particular enemy. If your bar is full, you have the most enmity in your entire party. If not, you know how much room you have until you pull threat off.

Thanks for the super detailed response. I grasped it pretty well actually. Also i didnt know about that enmity meter, glad i know what it does now! We'll probably have to do some co-orinated work to take bigger mobs down. Were thinking of 3 manning boss type fates, which i've found that people get slammed with out either a ton of people hating on the mob, or proper support. We plan to stick together 100%, so this info is valuable.

Last question.

I've noticed that for some reason, when a mob is getting kited, i can no longer hit it literally no matter what. Is this lag? I usually run less than 150, sometimes 200ms for my average speedtest ping, not bad for being in hawaii on a mobile hot spot. But its super obnoxious that i cant continue to deal DPS on a mob just because theyre chasing some one else. And they cant stop or they'll get melted.

(part 2, lolwtf 1000 char limit? should be 10x that... cant even feel bad about dbl posting with that silliness..)

I've tried just pushing forward to keep on the mob, running ahead of them, running infront of them and waiting. It just says "interrupted" and i do nothing.

Just curious if thats just also how the game works.

Note you can edit your post to bypass 1000 chars.

Good morning ^^.

In my opinion you should not care about gaining aggro with the pugilist, all the opposite, you should take a clear look to the enmity list for avoiding get it too high. (Is a list that will be displayed at your left, showing the name of the enemies you hit and a blue circle, yellow triangle, orange... And red square if you gain the max enmity.)

As a PGL, you need to not be under attack for maximizing the damage you deal, since hit the enemy's back and flanks is really difficult if you are being targeted and you need to wait for an enemy AoE for doing so. I normally hit enemies that are being attacked by the tanker in a dungeon and works fine, but always checking the list, because if the mob is in orange and about to be red I rather change to another target. (Tanker would feel bad if he notices is not gaining the enough aggro, and healer would suffer if you start taking damage.)

If there are three enemies and you hit one, you'll notice that the name of that monster will appear in the enmity list at your left, the other two monsters won't probably be there until you hit them. Always have a third eye put in the enmity list, doesn't matter the class you are using, when I discovered what was that thing that appeared at my left and what meant it increased a little more my battle efficiency ^^.

There's also a way to know the enmity that is generated in a certain mob by the members of the party, it is shown as a white bar in the party. But it only shows it to the mob you are currently selecting, the information of the enmity list behind the party list will tell you in all the moment more or less an overall display of your enmity with all the mobs that once targeted you or you ever hit.

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Originally Posted by Crystles

I've noticed that for some reason, when a mob is getting kited, i can no longer hit it literally no matter what. Is this lag? I usually run less than 150, sometimes 200ms for my average speedtest ping, not bad for being in hawaii on a mobile hot spot. But its super obnoxious that i cant continue to deal DPS on a mob just because theyre chasing some one else. And they cant stop or they'll get melted.

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Basically.

With FFXIV, the server keeps track of positions of everything, and anytime there's a conflict between what you see on your screen and what what the server thinks is happening, the server wins. By the time you get the data that a mob is at position X, if it's moving, the server already has it at its next position. You'll never catch something you're chasing until it stops.

This is also why, even if you think you're behind or beside the mob when you're solo, you'll almost never get flank/rear bonuses on any of your skills. It may look like you ran around to the side, but the reality is that mobs turn to face you instantly & constantly; you just don't see it.

To hit a moving mob as a melee, you have to run a little bit ahead of them. That puts you where you need to be according to the server, which already has the mob a few steps ahead of where your client shows it. How far ahead depends on how much latency you have. For me, I generally need to be right in front of them, with my feet just outside their targeting ring, unless they're moving at a slower/faster than average speed.

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Originally Posted by Crystles

I've noticed that for some reason, when a mob is getting kited, i can no longer hit it literally no matter what. Is this lag? I usually run less than 150, sometimes 200ms for my average speedtest ping, not bad for being in hawaii on a mobile hot spot. But its super obnoxious that i cant continue to deal DPS on a mob just because theyre chasing some one else. And they cant stop or they'll get melted.

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You should never kite monsters. Unless you use sprint to get ahead they'll hit you as you're running, and they'll take longer to kill (and a tank won't be able to get hate) due to the aforementioned issues. If you or your friends pull hate when you shouldn't, you should stand there, pop defensive abilities, and wait for someone else to take it.

Also, I highly recommend getting a tank to join your little group. You'll then be perfect for all 4-man content (One tank, one melee DPS, one magical DPS, one healer. Lets you use any limit break you want, and you can run PVP in addition to any instance barring the few level 50 8-man), and a tank will be much better at keeping hate and mitigating damage than you (Not only do they have skills to keep hate and increase defense, the armor that suits them has high defense and magic defense, unlike physical DPS which has medium defense and low magic defense, and casters which has medium magic defense and low physical defense.)

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Originally Posted by Crystles

We'll probably have to do some co-orinated work to take bigger mobs down. Were thinking of 3 manning boss type fates, which i've found that people get slammed with out either a ton of people hating on the mob, or proper support. We plan to stick together 100%, so this info is valuable.

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FATE bosses are usually not too bad in terms of DPS they inflict (there are one or two exceptions like Behemoth) - you can probably get by with just a Chocobo Companion healing you. My Arcanist's Carbuncle was tanking them easily back in the day, and you can usually solo a FATE boss as long as you have some form of light healing and means of dealing damage (Any tank with a Chocobo, SMN with pet, etc)

I'd back Urthdigger up on the variety idea - it'd be most efficient to have one Tank, one DPS and one Healer; but if you all want the ability to deal decent damage I'd suggest Warrior and Scholar. WAR are still a bit better than PLDs in low-man content, and SCHs can get some very decent DPS from their DoTs whenever accuracy isn't an issue (basically everything aside from Coil). If one of your friends is dead set on not being a tank - I'd suggest Summoner (Caster) and Scholar (Healer) since in a pinch you can have Titan-Egi tank for you.

I've recently levelled my Monk class to 50 and had a lot of fun along the way. Like you, I chose a lot of defensive cross-class skills and was able to off-tank when the situation required it (i.e. dead tank). Although it is possible to use some cross class skills that generate enmity, I would not recommend it. If your gear is up to date, you'll be able to steal aggro from tanks just by maximizing your dps through positioning and the use of buffs (+30% crit chance is a LOT). But you should try to avoid stealing aggro as that just makes fights more complicated than they need to be.

On the other hand, being able to handle one creature when the tank goes down can save your party from a wipe. Switching your stance, rotating or stacking defensive cooldowns and using self-heals is a great secondary skill to develop as a monk player. It will also help you out a lot if you have lancer and marauder levelled for their cross-class abilities.

If you run close behind moving enemies, you can keep damaging them but you have to be really close. Your party should always try to avoid situations where enemies and not static. Foes that don't move will let you put out a lot of damage.

As for FATEs, i'd say that any two person team can solo 95% of them, as long as one of the two is a healer. Only certain huge FATE, like Cancer or Steropes, requires whole parties to clear. Just having a minimum of healing (and a few chocobos) will let you take down pretty much anything the game can throw as you.

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Originally Posted by Crystles

We'll probably have to do some co-orinated work to take bigger mobs down. Were thinking of 3 manning boss type fates, which i've found that people get slammed with out either a ton of people hating on the mob, or proper support. We plan to stick together 100%, so this info is valuable.

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You'll probably have no problem 3 manning fates with 2 DPS and a healer, especially when you get your Chocobo companions (level 30 quest in the South Shroud I think, need the grand company mount first). For dungeons you'll have to wait for a tank though, which can get annoying especially if you're a solo DPS looking to get into a dungeon (tanks are in short supply and DPS are the majority of the population) it would be ideal if you join a free company that's willing to help you all out if you don't always want to wait in the duty finder queue for something (though with a premade party 2 DPS and a healer queuing you'll get in pretty quick).

And for when a mob is being kited it's really hard for Melees to hit. Bixby already explained this. The best you can do in a kiting situation is pop your damage over time on the mob (Touch of Death I think) and try to land some hits by running ahead of the kited mob. Your caster friend shouldn't have much of a problem in that situation though.

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Originally Posted by Bixby

This is also why, even if you think you're behind or beside the mob when you're solo, you'll almost never get flank/rear bonuses on any of your skills. It may look like you ran around to the side, but the reality is that mobs turn to face you instantly & constantly; you just don't see it.

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Does this apply when the mob is AoE casting and I strafe to the side or run thru to the back? Or is the impression that the mob is "stuck" casting also an illusion?

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Originally Posted by Sisqi

Does this apply when the mob is AoE casting and I strafe to the side or run thru to the back? Or is the impression that the mob is "stuck" casting also an illusion?

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The mob will remain facing the same direction until it finishes casting, so that can sometimes give you a chance to get in a flank or rear attack. You may, however, see it finish casting a moment after it actually does. This can lead to being caught in an attack that it looks like you avoided if you're cutting it too close.

A Matter of HONOR still stands. I replied to your other post. I ran into a guy that said you were asking about the FC in a post he read. We have attained housing and have built a home since then. People have left and come. I am now the GM if I wasn't when you were with us. I kicked you from FC because of inactivity over 30 days and thought that you were never coming back as I do all the same way. If I had known what you were doing I would have kept you in FC. You are more than welcome back and hope that I will see you back. Sorry for the mixup with thining that you were never coming back. We also have a new website amatterofhonor.enjin.com and we have a Mumble server as well with our paid subscription. Hit me up in game. Laterz