Different party sizes in the future

I see a lot of complaints about dps having to wait 60-90+ min for a dungeon or ct while tanks and healers get near instant queues. This is due to the disproportionate people who play dps vs tank/healer One possible solution is in a future expansion SE changes the party sizes.

Currently a light party 1 tank 1 healer 2 dps. That is 1 tank/healer for every 2 dps
Full party is 2 tank 2 healer 4 dps. Still keeps the same ration of 1 tank/healer per 2 dps.

One solution would be to change light to 5 and full party to 10
Light 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps
Full 2 tank 2 healer 6 dps

This would reduce the queue times some for dps by allowing more dps per tank and healer.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

healers get near instant queues

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I agree with the DPS ratio needing to be upped, but are you kidding me?

http://i.imgur.com/a7O7LrD.png

http://i.imgur.com/zBWy1Ne.png

Root solution to the problem is to find a way to get more people to play tanks. That is all.

I agree with the OP 100%

SE will never force me to play a Tank...

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Originally Posted by Zumi

Currently a light party 1 tank 1 healer 2 dps. That is 1 tank/healer for every 2 dps
Full party is 2 tank 2 healer 4 dps. Still keeps the same ration of 1 tank/healer per 2 dps.

One solution would be to change light to 5 and full party to 10
Light 1 tank 1 healer 3 dps
Full 2 tank 2 healer 6 dps

This would reduce the queue times some for dps by allowing more dps per tank and healer.

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I so want to support your idea, Zumi, but I know someone will eventually come here and say "y 3 deepz?? shuld b3 2 deepz adn 1 suport herp derp" and thus ruin things. Oh what the hell, I'll still support your idea.

this is something i dont get with any mmos developed post wow development with regards to the holy trinity and dps queues, the data has been present for so long and widely acknowledged that dps wait a long time compared to tanks, in this game, healers have to wait too to some degree.
the current best solution, is pretty much what the OP has suggested, per instance, have 1 tank, and a large roster of dpsers in there, tbh, all the 8 mans should be 1 tank 1 / 2 healer and rest dps, and tbh, standard dungeons should be 10 man, its just the nature of the beast, we wont ever get away from it, as long as its pooling the numbers as mmos are currently doing, wow is still doing it because its stuck with it, other devs have had such prime opportunity to relieve this, have bigger parties with the only need of 1 tank and more dps in a group.

If/when they release support roles,

1 Tank, 1 healer, 1 support, 3 DPS.

Mmm.

How about we go way back. Let's make this official.

SE, we want 15 man parties back. Maybe bring back behests with only 15 slots too so you have to mash on the enter button (or whatever your confirmation button is) to try and get a spot.

I'd rather see 6 man light parties and 12 man full parties, with 48 (4 party) raids.

If you are going by the ratio of tanks to healers to dps, though, it might need to be 10 man parties - 1 tank, 2 healers, and 7 dps, for a light party.

We really don't need 6 tanks for CT. It's just slowing others' queues down and we end up with "offtanks" in spiritbind gear trying to get their HP as low as possible so they can snooze past the whole run. Change the duty role requirements for CT please.

And the fight mechanic "Swap tank at 2 or 3 debuff stacks" is becoming repetitive. It's obviously a mechanic to force groups to utilize 2 tanks.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Root solution to the problem is to find a way to get more people to play tanks. That is all.

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No, please don't. I like my insta-ques as a tank :(

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Originally Posted by Kiyouma

No, please don't. I like my insta-ques as a tank :(

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In an ideal world where the population really was 1:1:2, everyone would be getting near insta-queues. You'll still have no wait time if you're the least played class but there's too much shortage on tanks, which is the cause of 1h+ queues.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Root solution to the problem is to find a way to get more people to play tanks. That is all.

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If people don't want to tank then they're not going to play as a tank. A lot of people don't like dealing with the added responsibility or they want to be the one that does the killing. It happens in every MMO, no matter how much they try to entice people to play them.

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Originally Posted by Espon

If people don't want to tank then they're not going to play as a tank. A lot of people don't like dealing with the added responsibility or they want to be the one that does the killing. It happens in every MMO, no matter how much they try to entice people to play them.

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I know plenty of people who refuse to tank because it's boring, myself included. They typically play MNK, DRG, or BLM instead because it's more "fun" being stance/combo oriented. There are even some WARs I know who play WAR because they feel like it's a tanky-DPS class.

Add some depth to current tanks or release new ones. Add dungeons or events where tanks have to do something (fun) - that doesn't involve tank swapping - for the group to progress. There are a number of ways to get those people who are on the fence to go over. It won't dramatically increase the number of tanks but at this point, any increase is welcome.

I almost have my PLD to 50 now (at 48 now) I am loving the insta ques for stuff...it is really nice and I don't know why people dislike playing tanks...they are very fun in my opinion. I use to say I would never level a tank, but now that I am...so glad that I did. Comes in handy for Raids when you need to shuffle the deck a bit or if someone does not show up or is unable to. I think everyone should play all three job roles to be more diverse in there playing.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

I agree with the DPS ratio needing to be upped, but are you kidding me?

http://i.imgur.com/a7O7LrD.png

http://i.imgur.com/zBWy1Ne.png

Root solution to the problem is to find a way to get more people to play tanks. That is all.

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I think what your pictures show is differnet and another Problem. At least the First One.
When every class is greyed out then the Server has no Space left because
there are allready to many People questing maybe.

More Tanks wouldnt solve your Problem. Only more Servers would help here i think.

I prefer a 6-man party like in FFXI. I don't really like 4, it's a bit too small.

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Originally Posted by theflo84

I think what your pictures show is differnet and another Problem. At least the First One.
When every class is greyed out then the Server has no Space left because
there are allready to many People questing maybe.

More Tanks wouldnt solve your Problem. Only more Servers would help here i think.

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Actually, the first one shows that this WHM was waiting that long for an instance. The DF puts everyone in a line, based on their role. Then it fills a party - one party at a time. After the one party is filled, then it looks at the next, and so on.

Being 0/6, 1/6, 0/12 for that long shows that that WHM is still in line for a party, and that the party (or parties) in front of him have yet to finish filling.

Odds are though, it was a tank the currently forming party was waiting for.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

I prefer a 6-man party like in FFXI. I don't really like 4, it's a bit too small.

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I'm used to Everquest's 6 man groups, with a raid system that allows for 12 groups (though instanced raids cut that down to 9 groups very quickly, and have topped out at 9 groups ever since).

What would happen if they increased the number of dps per tank/healer?
Tanks/Healers that didn't really want to be tank/healer would take it as an excuse to switch to dps and queue times will remain unchanged.

Since people avoid playing tanks because they feel it's too much responsibility, SE should instead of further rewarding players who chose tank put more responsibilities on the dps.
Maybe then players wouldn't flock to dps because dps is the easiest with practically no responsibilities beyond doing damage, and start doing tank/healer more...

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

What would happen if they increased the number of dps per tank/healer?
Tanks/Healers that didn't really want to be tank/healer would take it as an excuse to switch to dps and queue times will remain unchanged.

Since people avoid playing tanks because they feel it's too much responsibility, SE should instead of further rewarding players who chose tank put more responsibilities on the dps.
Maybe then players wouldn't flock to dps because dps is the easiest with practically no responsibilities beyond doing damage, and start doing tank/healer more...

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Whoa, yeah, I totally agree. We dont want people playing a class they ENJOY. Thats ridiculous. Lets just keep things the same. Give people a mount. THAT will make them enjoy tanking.

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Originally Posted by BlueMage

Whoa, yeah, I totally agree. We dont want people playing a class they ENJOY. Thats ridiculous. Lets just keep things the same. Give people a mount. THAT will make them enjoy tanking.

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It give them a reason to test out the tank role.
After they tested it they can decide if they enjoy the role or not.

The mount it just a bait to bring the players to test it out before deciding against it..

Hmmm it is strange that they went with 2 deeps per 1 tank and heals, Its not like they could of researched from previous mmos. Swtor did the same thing although queues when I was playing it didn't seem so bad. I'd prefer a 5 player group with 1/1/3 but the thing is its pretty much too late now. Going back and re balancing every bit of group content for the extra dps just isn't worth it so we're stuck with 4 man groups it looks like.

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Originally Posted by Jaykos

Hmmm it is strange that they went with 2 deeps per 1 tank and heals, Its not like they could of researched from previous mmos. Swtor did the same thing although queues when I was playing it didn't seem so bad. I'd prefer a 5 player group with 1/1/3 but the thing is its pretty much too late now. Going back and re balancing every bit of group content for the extra dps just isn't worth it so we're stuck with 4 man groups it looks like.

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I don't know when they changed the 12 man party into 4 man party (light party) and 8 man party (full party), but I think it was before SWTOR.
october 2011 with the first instanced dungeons Dzemael (full party) and Toto-Rak (light party), if i remember it right

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Originally Posted by Felis

It give them a reason to test out the tank role.
After they tested it they can decide if they enjoy the role or not.

The mount it just a bait to bring the players to test it out before deciding against it..

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The person I was responding to said they didnt want people currently playing tanks to switch over to DPS classes they enjoy more instead of tanking out of necessity/obligation, but derp derp general forums derp derp.

Didn't Yoshi P. say that the 8 Man will stay and that they only intend to make it 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, 2 DPS and 2 Hybrids ?

I could swear I heard this in a Live Letter ...

ppl dont have courage to bear responsibility and play tanks

The problem isn't the shortage of tanks and healers, the problem is the shortage of tanks and healers who are willing to join PUGs. Making it even harder to play a tank or healer in a PUG because now there's even more DPS to attack the slept targets while standing in the big red zone isn't really going to help with that?

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Originally Posted by SirSaber

Didn't Yoshi P. say that the 8 Man will stay and that they only intend to make it 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, 2 DPS and 2 Hybrids ?

I could swear I heard this in a Live Letter ...

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It was an interview with a Japanese website or magazine, if I recall correctly.

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Originally Posted by BlueMage

Whoa, yeah, I totally agree. We dont want people playing a class they ENJOY. Thats ridiculous. Lets just keep things the same. Give people a mount. THAT will make them enjoy tanking.

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Actually, a lot of dps play it because they didn't want any responsibility at start and never tried anything else. As an example, my gf started with ACN, and switched to THM when the time to chose her job came, because she liked the big hits of BLM more than the DOTs of SMN. After some weeks in coil, she decided to come back on ACN and the SCh way. Now she's doing everything but the coil with her SCH, as she enjoys it way more than dps duty. She also tried tank but can't bear the melee fights. Well, at least she tried.

plenty of tanks for FC / PF , and GL finding a spot as tank in a coil static :P

tanks in pugs enviroments ugh....

add that tanks need to know encounters inside-out to being able to pug it in the 1 place....because learning an encounter in a pug enviroment as tank is like pulling teeth. PAINFULL.

try to join a PF as tank for garuda extreme , or go DF and tell the party that is your 1 time...... /popcorn

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Originally Posted by Jaykos

Hmmm it is strange that they went with 2 deeps per 1 tank and heals, Its not like they could of researched from previous mmos. Swtor did the same thing although queues when I was playing it didn't seem so bad. I'd prefer a 5 player group with 1/1/3 but the thing is its pretty much too late now. Going back and re balancing every bit of group content for the extra dps just isn't worth it so we're stuck with 4 man groups it looks like.

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UPDATE DungeonMobs SET Hp = Hp *1.2

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

try to join a PF as tank for garuda extreme , or go DF and tell the party that is your 1 time...... /popcorn

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This. I only do new fights in learning parties (if they ask for watching a vid, heck I'll say I've watched one and understood nothing. Either they'll give a good one or deal with it) or with my FC (usually we take 2 overgeared PUs who preferrably know the fight. This isn't needed but appreciated as we clearly state that I am here to learn and need it as painless as it can be for a 1st time).

We wipe, wipe, and wipe again, but at least after that I know some basics and I can register in PF/DF without having to close the chat log for flaming war issues

FFXI did as Everquest did, 6 person parties.

1 Tank - 1 Heal - 4 DPS/Support

And that worked, still sometimes had to wait a bit to form parties sometimes, but others there was enough room to use 2 off tanks instead of one proper, or 2 red mages rather than a white mage.

6/12/36 would be better, but i don't see it happening any time soon.

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As for the more tanks bit... I have an i80 PLD i use for turn 3.

Groups are too toxic to tanks for me to want to put up with that ish. I have 3 i85+ DPS I can play without being harassed, why would I want the brain damage?

Unless... instead of a mount, they gave tanks the ability to mute a player. Player couldn't type in /s /sh /y or /p for 5 mins? on a 5 min cool down.

Someone being toxic? Mute them and continue on.

Adding 5 man parties w/ support as the 5th slot would make it even worse. Then even tanks would have hour long queues, because everyone would then be waiting for a support class to queue.