When I started on Archer and then unlocked bard I was really disappointed. Not because Bard is bad, it's awesome, but wrapping my brain around the idea that it was becoming a DPS with support was less appealing than the idea of it becoming some more DPS heavy like a Ranger/Hunter.
Along the same vein, my first job to 50 was Scholar, and I love that I leveled Arcanist and have the ability to, at 50, change between a Healing Job (Scholar) and a DPS job (Summoner).
So basically my suggestion to SE is that I would love to see other classes have this development. Rather than every tank class simply unlock another tank job, same with healingh and dps. Instead I would love for there to be more variety more akin to how Arcanist branched out into a DPS and a Healing job.
For example: perhaps a Pugilist could switch between Monky (DPS) and something like Dancer (which could be a tank, or supporting/healing DPS). Or Conjurer, which is one of the land, could become White Mage (Healing)...
Make Classes Multifaceted
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02-04-2014, 04:46 AMKittty_CatMake Classes Multifaceted
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02-04-2014, 04:46 AMKittty_Cat
...and something like Blue Mage (also of the land, but instead learning abilities of enemies making it be DPS most likely with some support spells).
The ideas are of course endless and I'd still love for SE to implement and have us unlock ALL new classes with unique jobs, but the idea of having classes that are multifaceted like Arcanist I find to be very appealing and I hope it's something being considered.
The only downfall to this concept I considered would be when someone who already has a level 50 class unlocks a new job, they could be a main DPS/healer job and all of a sudden have access to a level 50 tank job, they may not know how to use it which could be disasterous in groups.
I think (read: hope) that because you learn job-specific abilities via job quests which rely on you understanding the fundamentals of a job and how it plays, otherwise you lose, that this would be negated and would be a non-issue, but it was still something to consider. -
02-04-2014, 04:56 AMGooner_iBluAirJGR
That would be pretty great. <3
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02-04-2014, 09:58 AMEnkidoh
SE are apparently looking at having Jobs of different roles being unlocked for other classes like ACN has with SMN and SCH (like having DRK allow a player to DPS off GLA instead of having to tank as PLD), but they're still working out the details in regards to it the last time I read about it.
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02-04-2014, 11:35 AMNaharaSE is already doing this. Arcanist is just the first, but more will be added later on and some current classes could have this done to them in the near future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kittty_Cat
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02-04-2014, 11:58 AMMaku
Yes, please make all the classes, multi-jobs so everyone can complain about stat allocation for all the jobs instead of just ACN. The amount of thread that will start when they put in the extra jobs is going to be killer.
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02-04-2014, 03:43 PMKitruI seriously doubt that will ever happen simply because some classes are simply incapable of developing into a well-formed version of a given role without monumental changes. CNJ, ARC, GLA, and THM will never get additional jobs simply because too much of their class functionality is devoted exclusively towards a single role. CNJ has too many heals and too few attacks to be anything but a healer; ARC has no tank CDs, only attacks, and is ranged so it's not going to be doing anything but ranged DPS; GLA has too few attacks and too many tank CDs to be anything but a tank; THM's fundamental resource model is hugely overpowered for a healer, and, since it's a caster, it won't be a tank (it also has a pretty laughable tank CD suite comprised of Manaward exclusively).Quote:
Originally Posted by Maku
Honestly, I expect multi-job classes to be the exception as opposed to the rule. To really work as a multi-job class, it has to be designed as such from the start, which is why ACN works so well. The pet mechanic and Aetherflow were easily coopted to turn the class into a healer since they focus on pet performance; all the devs had to do was turn the ACN pets into healing pets (which was easily accomplished given that SMN already changed the pets), and it largely fell into place. The only non-DPS abilities that the devs had to shoehorn into ACN/SMN in order to provide SCH with its full repertoire were Physick and Resurrection, which had negligible impact upon the DPS (since it was only 2 abilities, the first of which was basically worthless because of stat splitting and the second of which is simply some additional utility as opposed to a really substantial benefit).
LNC, PUG, and MRD have potential be given secondary jobs, even if it's not as likely and somewhat questionable given their current abilities, but they only do so because there is a *lot* of cross-role functionality in there (MRD has enough attacks to create a reasonably compelling rotation so it's only short some DPS CDs and a couple additional attacks to really flesh it out; PUG and LNC both have a healthy number of attacks and existing tank CD suites that simply need to be bolstered by what a job could provide); even then, there are problems with the abilities that classes bring, since MRD has a tank CD suite that is too strong for a DPS to get access to and LNC/PUG could present a problem of having too many attacks. -
02-04-2014, 04:56 PMEnkidoh
Actually, CNJ as originally designed at 1.0's launch was less a healer and more an elemental caster class - they had spells of all elements, including fire, lightning and ice. It was only when Jobs were added that the class was completely redesigned to allow them to concentrate more on healing so as to lead into WHM, and a lot of it's elemental spells were added to THM. Sure it might not be as potent as THM/BLM, but CNJ can definitely still function as an effective offensive mage anyway (it's what Cleric Stance is meant for after all.
GEO (Geomancer) would be a very good fit for CNJ as a result, allowing them to concentrate on attack magic at the expense of healing potency and spells (maybe they could have a trait that boosts attack magic potency even further if under the effect of Cleric Stance, or something). -
02-04-2014, 07:21 PMHiroradius
Well they can do Geomancer with Conj, and the reason for that is Stone and Aero, both of those are considered a norm part of a geomancer. Cleric stance will allow them to concentrate on dps spells, and they can get other skills and abilites like Flood and Tornado and Quake from their soul crystal, also they can make it so the Geomancer, like Summoner, could help healing but won't be effective due to stat build and traits given to them.
As for Gladiator, they can become Dark knight, they can get a trait to remove enmity off their attacks, and it can work with some life draining attacks, and poisones and things like that attached to their soul crystal which will change certain combos to do something else.
Thaum, why not make them a healer with their secondary job? And how do you do that, a Sage. Their crystal gives them access to cure spells, but to make them a different kind of healer.. make them a dps healer.. meaning they get their heals and mana according to astral fire and umbral ice, so they will still need to cast fire and ice spells. Ice will increase their mana restoration, while decreasing the potency of their heal spells, fire will reduce mana restoration while increasing the potency of their heal spells, so they will become a class that needs to know balance.
While Archer, yes it would stay as a range dps, but you can make them maybe become Ranger, a pet class archer? or maybe give them elemental arrow shots and in essence a caster? There are plenty of different things that can be done to change up how the archer works.
Puglist, well Dancer does work due to the different forms with their attacks, but a tank dancer? How about instead a melee support class. Basically Bard is range support with songs that help increase party performance, maybe dancer can while in different forms for attacks cause certain debuffs to the mobs or even a form for tp restoration?
Marauder, well Besereker kinda works with them. Give them an ability to remove enemity, and attacks and stuff to increase their damage output, but while damage output gets increased, they lose defense or certain abilites cause enrage in which they lose the ability to move... things like that.
Lancer, in my opinion is the hardest, and that is because there is no other job in final fantasy lore that uses a lance/spear. I've heard people keep saying dark knight and sam.. but the limitation is the weapon. to use a different weapon other than the lancer/spear, it will need to change the animation of attacks, and that is something I don't see happening.. so I'd be interested in seeing a 2nd lancer job.. but if I had to create one.. Pikemen.. basically a tank with a spear and shield. -
02-05-2014, 01:30 AMRistin
Lancer could branch into the Templar Knight from Tactics Advance. Heavy armor with a spear and some white magic.
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02-05-2014, 06:46 AMTzainBut the presence of Medica II being 1 click away makes it crazy unbalanced. Imagine a 8 man group with 1 tank, 6 Geomancers, and a White Mage. That's 7 Medica IIs every 30 seconds split between that many sources. Completely overpowered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiroradius
Except the Gladiator uses reductive defense rather than recovery. The moment they are no longer getting hit or intending to get hit 12 of their 17 abilities are rendered useless. (However, the idea of a Dark Knight does work for the HP driven Marauder in a much more acceptable fashion, so you're not far off)Quote:
As for Gladiator, they can become Dark knight, they can get a trait to remove enmity off their attacks, and it can work with some life draining attacks, and poisones and things like that attached to their soul crystal which will change certain combos to do something else.
I tried this design as a lark a while back. It's "possible", but highly unlikely simply because of the umbral ice mechanic offering "infinite mana" and setting up a "cycle" of healing that will result in a functionally less effective healer than the existing two. It's close, but ultimately it falls out of reach (believe me, I tried!)Quote:
Thaum, why not make them a healer with their secondary job? And how do you do that, a Sage. Their crystal gives them access to cure spells, but to make them a different kind of healer.. make them a dps healer.. meaning they get their heals and mana according to astral fire and umbral ice, so they will still need to cast fire and ice spells. Ice will increase their mana restoration, while decreasing the potency of their heal spells, fire will reduce mana restoration while increasing the potency of their heal spells, so they will become a class that needs to know balance.
Now, here's something I can totally agree with. See, Bard is "Support". Absolultely nothing in their job skills is about increasing their DPS, in fact it does the opposite. Plenty of room for a DPS job to offer more focused on dealing direct damage.Quote:
While Archer, yes it would stay as a range dps, but you can make them maybe become Ranger, a pet class archer? or maybe give them elemental arrow shots and in essence a caster? There are plenty of different things that can be done to change up how the archer works.
Read my mind here. In fact I've been toying with a mock-design for just such a melee support. There's quite a few ways to play Dances against Greased Lightening. Unfortunately, the proto design is still HORRIBLY overpowered.Quote:
Puglist, well Dancer does work due to the different forms with their attacks, but a tank dancer? How about instead a melee support class. Basically Bard is range support with songs that help increase party performance, maybe dancer can while in different forms for attacks cause certain debuffs to the mobs or even a form for tp restoration?
I hinted at this before when I connected Dark Knight to Marauder, Marauder has a ton of HP even as it's baseclass, in addition it comes preequipped with ways to restore that HP. Both those things play perfectly against a job that consumes it's own HP to deal dmg, I usually equate that sort of behavior with Berserkers and, from what ive been told, it applies perfectly to the Dark Knights signature ability.Quote:
Marauder, well Besereker kinda works with them. Give them an ability to remove enemity, and attacks and stuff to increase their damage output, but while damage output gets increased, they lose defense or certain abilites cause enrage in which they lose the ability to move... things like that.
I'd peg Lancer as most likely to get a Tank job. It's going to look quite a bit like Warrior, a "Tank Stance" at 30 to decrease their dmg and increase their enmity/defense and then an ability every 5 levels to fill in the blanks. My guess is a focus on the "Parry" mechanic. The only ability that get's "dropped" is "Blood for Blood". Technically you could use it....but honestly that's a pretty bad idea. However, it does come equipped with a pull move just like tomahawk/Shield Lob and a stun that is a carbon copy of the one that Marauders use.Quote:
Lancer, in my opinion is the hardest, and that is because there is no other job in final fantasy lore that uses a lance/spear. I've heard people keep saying dark knight and sam.. but the limitation is the weapon. to use a different weapon other than the lancer/spear, it will need to change the animation of attacks, and that is something I don't see happening.. so I'd be interested in seeing a 2nd lancer job.. but if I had to create one.. Pikemen.. basically a tank with a spear and shield.
As far as a healer. We already have a DPS that turned into a healer. What would be next would be a healer class that is DESIGNED from the get go to function as a DPS secondary job. -
02-05-2014, 08:44 AMUltimatecaliburOnly 9 (or 7 depending on your perspective on Convalescence and Tempered Will), not 12, would be "useless" (some of the others would be underpowered but not useless) as they currently are. In comparison a Lancer, a class with a surprising number of abilities that parallel marauder and gladiator, has 6 abilities (all of them attacks) that would be useless as they stand if it switched to tank and Doom Spike is gained far to late as a potential aoe threat generator for low level tanking purposes. It would take potentially the same amount of work to change the Gladiator into a dps as it would to Change a Lancer into a tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzain
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02-05-2014, 06:54 PMNaharaThat's kinda the problem with the current classes, aside from Arcanist. They're all very single-minded in how they were built and it would take a LOT of tweaking in order to give them a second role. Unless SE decides to heavily revamp the classes later on in order to make them more flexible (or SE if VERY liberal with the changes that can happen to a class when a soulstone is equipped), we may not see any new roles added to the current classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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02-05-2014, 07:23 PMVeloxThis has already been done. 7 WHM and 1 Tank is the same thing with 6 of the WHM in Cleric Stance. WHM has plenty of DPS potential in Cleric Stance to pass a lot of the DPS checks in-game. Stone II is something like 500+ (non-critted) and they have access to 2 DoTs that stack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzain
FFXIV is a casual game, not some hard-core MMO where only certain class combinations can achieve victory. This game has a lot of room for fun group set-ups to allow for some creative strategies to accomplish the same goals. Is it overpowered? Sometimes it is, but at the same time it isn't because these kinds of set-ups are situational. There's a video on youtube of a WHM tanking Titan HM. I mean, all kinds of crazy things can be done in FFXIV. That doesn't mean it's optimal though, as these things come with inherent risks and the possibility of low returns. -
02-06-2014, 01:10 AMTzainI assume you're talking about the 2 positional attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Heavy Strike: It's a pure DPS increase. Thus, low priority to tanking. The follow up is level 46, which means 4/5 job skills are available.
Impulse Drive: Utterly useless until level 38. The combo attack it leads to doesn't require positioning. So it's currently feasible to do a Leg Sweep > Impulse Drive > Disembowel > Chaos Thrust without any modifications/additions.
I've had to Lancer Tank pretty much every dungeon up to and including haukke manor due to vanishing tanks. Which means we end up with only a 3 player team. I cross classed Flash, Skull Sunder, Bloodbath, provoke, and every Defensive Cooldown I could fit and cycled through them much the way I would on a paladin/GLA. Worked fine, although I admit I ran into some longevity problems on longer fights. One of the first things I noticed was the Doctore Gear from Halitali, All my tanks wore that armor due to it having the best stats at that level range, when my Lancer wore it he was nearly as tanky. As I replaced it with higher level DoW gear I was comparatively less comfortable. So opening a lancer job to the heavy armor use-list would go a long way with keeping things under control. If I had actual job skills to go with the cross class ones I brought in I'm positive it would work. -
02-06-2014, 02:57 AMOmegaSinX
[QUOTE=Kittty_Cat;1844495]When I started on Archer .....QUOTE]
I believe SE hint on that are moving to hybrid classes in the future. Meaning classes will be able to fill multiple roles. -
02-06-2014, 05:13 AMGamemakoYoshi has implied that there can be much greater changes from class to job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
In their current incarnations, I would agree that a second job out of those four classes you mentioned are pretty unlikely. Everything will depend from there on just how much they are willing to change.Quote:
We created the system, but we do not necessarily need to follow it all the time. For example, let’s say that the Dark Knight is the second Gladiator job, when you get its job stone at level 30, all acquired Gladiator skills will certainly be modified to better fit the image of the Dark Knight.
You have 4 damage spells and 1 damage ability plus a whole lot of stuff that is useless to a DPS. CNJ is the absolute worst class to make a second job for. Mechanically, you will have to completely redo the class to turn it into anything. If any class gets no second job, CNJ will be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enkidoh
Actually, you don't see that very frequently because WHM is around 70% of a DPS, much like a tank. WHM gets 10% from Cleric Stance; BLM gets 80% from AF3. Both average 170 potency in ST spam mode. BLM is not a top-tier single-target DPS, either; it's fourth in line (MNK > DRG > SMN > BLM). What people actually are doing is monumentally overgearing for content and then doing silly things because the game doesn't sync gear like it should. I hate to tell you, but the designers didn't intend for players to never see sisters spawn in Garuda HM. It happens because a group of ilvl90 players will deal so much DPS that she has no escape, no hope, none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velox
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02-06-2014, 11:06 AMEnkidohWe do also cross class Blizzard II from THM after all (and originally Thunder), not to mention spells like Virus from ACN. And before you pass judgement, GEO in FFXI is virtually a rip off lore wise from CNJ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
Also considering CNJ as originally designed did have spells from the entire elemental wheel, they can easily add new spells as part of the upgrade. GEO would be a Job upgrade, so therefore it could easily adjust the healing-based abilities into DD-focused ones, like how SMN and SCH are handled. -
02-06-2014, 12:00 PMSunbrary
Yeah but with ACN it was more balanced, since you only receive only 1 healing spell and 1 support spell leveling from 1-50 (Not including sustain for pets or Resurrection). The 1 healing spell doesn't become useless after either job because it's still effective with both SMN and SCH, but more so with SCH for obvious reasons, where as CNJ has even more spells catering towards a Healing only job, since you get Cure I, II and III, not to mention Medica I and II. Waay too many healing spells to become useless. Soooo how could this be fixed without making too many drastic changes, and i'm not going to reference how CNJ USED to be because it's not how it was...... sorta :p
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02-06-2014, 05:08 PMMardel
I know people want ARC to become a ranger eventually... but I don't see it happening unless ARC/BRD gets a massive nerf. Consider this, I would dare say atm SMN/BRD crap all over any other DPS classes. Brd is part support already... so imagine if it gained MORE dps. Why take another class? LB build? Then just BRD, RNG, SMN, RNG for your dps.
Now onto tanks, I could maybe see LNC becoming a tank of sorts but not really. The class currently would end up just like Warrior because as we have learned sub healing (whm) on PLD blows. I would say most pld I know probably use stoneskin from whm otherwise them 400 cures isn't doing anything for you >.>;
THM is stuck, unless it become a SAGE (another dps) it is too heavily vested in "elemental magic", elemental magic that doesn't even exist. (Lore should change this to reflect that tbh because fire killing fire is kind of derp, what I'm saying is that blm/thm should be considered to manipulate aether/mana to use spells that LOOK like elements but aren't elements.)
CNJ, it could be a geomancer... but you will have to lock it out of medica II or make it so weak that there is no reason to heal. However making it have bad mnd to lower the healing it can do... why use cleric stance lol?
The absolute easiest solution to this is one people probably don't want... making each class = 1 job. Meaning either sch/smn will have to take a hit and be re-vamped. Otherwise what will end up happening is that when you change into a job it will have to get abilities that replace class based ones. The issue is they have a 5 ability model right now... that HEAVILY hinders what they can do. Anyways it will be interesting to see what they come up with, but don't set your hopes high. -
02-06-2014, 06:50 PMDuelleRead up on classic bards, Leliana from Dragon Age and the protagonist of A Bard's Tale. It'll make it REAL easy to wrap your brain around the idea of BRD being DPS with utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kittty_Cat
That'll come with time. I can bet dollars to donuts that GLA's second job will be DPS, MRD's second job will be DPS, CNJ's second job will be magic DPS and THM's second job will be a healer.Quote:
So basically my suggestion to SE is that I would love to see other classes have this development. Rather than every tank class simply unlock another tank job, same with healingh and dps. Instead I would love for there to be more variety more akin to how Arcanist branched out into a DPS and a Healing job.
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02-07-2014, 06:30 AMGamemakoOh, I'm not arguing lore. The problem is that existing mechanics do not support a second job at all without extreme modification. They DPS abilities they lack are too great in number while the healing ones they do have are too powerful to leave alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enkidoh
SCH is an entirely different beast; the class was designed with the healer role in mind from the start. SCH adapts existing mechanics for healing, like Aetherflow, Summon, and Rouse. CNJ doesn't have any unique mechanics to co-opt to fill a damage role, nor does the class have a spell repertoire suitable to attacking. You can't use Cure 1/2/3, Medica/2, Raise, Stoneskin, Protect, or Esuna to attack. The only way to get around the problem with CNJ is to completely replace spells rather than adapt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enkidoh
Moreover, you'd have two jobs that play identically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardel
I have no idea how you got from Lancer to healing or why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardel
You would use it to hit 80% of a WHM's Medica II. You have to completely delete one of the two abilities or your job is going to be broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardel
You don't have to unify everything. Some jobs get two, and some don't. Remember that one of two jobs is effectively locked out due to bonus point distribution in the first place, so it's not much of a loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mardel
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02-07-2014, 09:27 AMMardel
I said the lancer / tank portion because someone mentioned lancer = tank (templar) with white mage sub. I was pointing out that people don't use cure too often on pld. (maybe if they have nothing better to do outside stoneskin)
Also you are right, you don't have to unify everything in terms of class = job. Realistically people are going to QQ either way if the class they play a job from doesn't get a secondary class anyways.