skipping areas should be a group decision

A couple days ago, I was running Tam-Tara with a DF group. I was an arcanist in the low-30's levels (not that anyone else knew that last detail, as the party list just showed us all at the level-sync of 19) and was doing it as part of the Duty Roulette. Another player was brand new, running the dungeon for the first time.

As we reached the first optional room, the tank just ran right past it into the next section and engaged the next group of mobs. As we finished them off, I pointed out that we'd missed an area, thinking the tank just didn't know the map very well and didn't realize we'd made a wrong turn. His response was something along the lines of "Oh, I just decided to skip that stuff."

I think some tanks really need to learn that just because their role means they're supposed to be the first to engage each group of mobs does not mean they get to make such decisions on their own without consulting the group. If the tank had even been considering skipping part of the dungeon, he should have said so at the beginning so we could discuss it and decide if that's what we wanted to do. As it turns out, nobody else in the group (other than the tank) wanted to skip any of the content, and after I brought it up we backtracked to get the room he'd run past earlier, but it still floors me that the tank hadn't considered checking with any of us to begin with.

It's possible you may occasionally get a group who all want to skip the optional rooms of a dungeon and just get to the boss, and if that happens, then fine, but it's certainly not to be expected as the norm. Most players are in a dungeon because they want something out of it, whether that's loot or XP or (for newcomers) a chance to see the content, and all of those rewards are diminished by not completing the whole thing. At the very least, ask the rest of your team if they're willing to forego part of their rewards in exchange for a slightly quicker completion time.

Maybe it has to do with the way tanks can get nearly instant queue times, but please keep in mind that the rest of us can't. DPS classes who have a half-hour or more wait to even get into a dungeon will likely only get one or two runs in in an evening. I was running it for XP, and even on a Duty Roulette run, about 80% or so of the XP comes from killing all the minor mobs along the path to the boss. If we don't kill the mobs in those optional rooms, then I lose out on a major portion of the XP from the only dungeon run I may get that day. Similarly, someone running it for loot isn't going to want to miss any of the treasure chests (and while XP was my primary goal, I wanted loot as well).

Tanks can't solo it, and DPS can tank those early dungeons.

Just put your foot down with the others. Clear the room. You don't need a tank before Brayflox, I'd argue.

I understand where your coming from.. BUT if everyone is sync-ed down to the level... the ASSUMPTION is that everyone has done this dungeon before, and most players just wanna get through the content as fast as possible for the tomes/xp bonus on the daily roullette..

I think if you want to do the full dungeon for the random useless treasure chest, then by all means, speak up, I dont think anyone has a problem going back and doing the extra content for the extra 2 or 3 minutes.

I am a main class DPS... I usually prefer to skip that material, even though it misses some xp, mainly because I want the scaled bonus xp at the end as fast as possible.

Now if there is some one NEW, which prompts at the beginning, i would EXPECT to do all the content, regardless of the majority vote.

But maybe its just me, the assumption is to skip as much as possible unless specified.... Ive done Tam Tara at least 100 times now, and i personally dont care about the random aetherial pink loot

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Tanks can't solo it, and DPS can tank those early dungeons.

Just put your foot down with the others. Clear the room.

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That assumes everyone sees what's being skipped. I've done that dungeon lots of times and in fact had gotten the same one on both of the previous two days Roulette, so I remembered pretty well where everything was and I knew when we passed by that extra room.

On a lot of runs, though, especially (though not exclusively) if it's a dungeon I haven't done for a while, I'm just racing through to keep up with the group and don't even see where we are on the map. I may not always know that we missed an area until we're so far past it that it's impractical to backtrack to, or perhaps would never know. Players in that situation would still be gypped out of what they should have been able to earn there, but won't even have an opportunity to insist on it.

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Originally Posted by SkyHighDN

if everyone is sync-ed down to the level... the ASSUMPTION is that everyone has done this dungeon before

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I'd done it before myself. Lots of times. That doesn't mean I didn't want any of the rewards from it. You can never assume that everyone running a dungeon wants to give up the rewards of that dungeon.

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Originally Posted by SkyHighDN

I am a main class DPS... I usually prefer to skip that material, even though it misses some xp, mainly because I want the scaled bonus xp at the end as fast as possible.

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And as I said, if everyone wants to skip the optionals, that's fine. My objection wasn't to skipping the optional content, it was to one player trying to make that decision for everyone else without asking them if that's what they wanted to do. If you want to skip the optional side-rooms, say so at the outset and discuss it with the rest of the group. Come up with a consensus on what the whole group wants to do. Otherwise, if you're not going to discuss it, then do the entire thing.

this goes both ways. it can be as well automaticaly asumed that people want to skip optional rooms with trash.
thus you need to speak up.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

it's certainly not to be expected as the norm.

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Maybe if they actually made those chests worth going for. You'll just get a potion most of the time.
Later instances have it a bit better, by having a higher chance at pink items, a chance at a crafting item for housing, or even green item (the ring in Brayflox comes to mind)

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

DPS classes who have a half-hour or more wait to even get into a dungeon.

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Duty Roulette aside, perhaps you should ask in your FC/LS? Maybe make a tank/healer friend to run instance with? Not to sound harsh, but this is an MMO after all.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

I was running it for XP

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Taking your Tam-Tara example, you'd get about 59 mob kills (including bosses) if you skip every optional room. If you don't skip those rooms, you'll get about 65-66 kills. I don't see those 6-7 kills being a major portion of the exp.

I say we do away with this daily bonus design. Calculate everything and use a look-up table to award synced exp upon each target kill such that it end up the same as now, but only if you kill everything. The current design of "the more you skip the better it is for you" simply doesn't make sense. It may be more work for the devs but it creates a long-term sustainable friendly environment in low level roulettes.

Just politely ask the tank to clear everything for mapping or exp at start of dungeon. I've never had one refuse. It sounds like yours complied with no issue as well. I'm leveling a tank and will sometimes skip rooms unless someone just asks to please kill them or accidently pulls. I've also had people ask why we are killing stuff when I don't skip rooms. We'll then discuss how we should run and rest of the dungeon goes fine. Why would it be the tank's job to initiate this conversation?

When I tank DR, sometimes I skip and sometimes I don't. Usually I ask but sometimes I don't. If anyone is new or says they want to do all the content, I do it. When I initially decide to skip or not, I'm not being inconsiderate, just making a judgment call so that the team moves forward instead of standing around doing nothing.

Part of being a tank is making leadership decisions to move the group forward. If you want to make those calls, then be the tank. Otherwise speak up. Being surprised that the tank isn't reading minds is kind of crazy. Resenting the tank for making decisions instead of waiting for a committee to form is also kind of crazy.

If it's Toto-Rak then i skip bonus rooms, don't like it and want to leave asap. Most people are fine with it.

I love it when the tank knows which rooms are pointless :)
Its bewildering when you get a group of synced people mostly from roulette and they still wanna waste time to get an allagan tin piece or 2 vials of ether, why..

I think the OP just made a mountain out of a molehill. All those paragraphs on group etiquette when most DF runs are silent affairs, leaving the tank to make assumptions on what the group wants to do. The default assumption is to skip areas with no/poor loot, and until people speak up and say otherwise you can't really fault them. I groan my head off when I get something like tam-tara and i assume everyone else does, so it is rare for people to sit there and take votes on what exactly you should do.

I've skipped areas as a tank simply because I assumed it's what the group wanted to do, and no one spoke up. When people spoke up I didn't skip areas, either way there was no drama and none of them posted an essay on the forums. All those words you posted doesn't apply.

Like for example, in terms of grinding exp its a great idea to vacuum up every piece of trash, but as a tank you worry that the rest of the group will berate you for wasting their time and doing pointless stuff. You assumed inconsiderate/thoughtless tanks, when the reason why they're skipping rooms is precisely because they are trying to be considerate. I personally tank in a way that I like tanks to play as a DD, and I adjust according to feedback. Berating tanks for playing in a certain way when they get no feedback is bad and you should feel bad.

Whether you do or dont want to skip, nobody should complain about how a random duty finder group runs. If you dont like how the party might turn out, or how the people in it might act, make a PF group of like-minded players instead.

I was doing Halatali last night on my marauder, I was gonna skip the optional mobs in the first area, someone said, "hey I need xp, can we clear everything?", other people said the same, and I said "sure, no problem". You gotta speak up, tanks get conflicting messages from every group, I just assume people want the dungeon done as fast as possible but I dont know if others want to clear if they dont say so.

Tank sets the pace by default, and most of them are probably only there for roulette and just want to get the run over with.

You wanna set the pace, you either need to chime in, or be the tank yourself.

It's the tank's decision which content of the dungeon is done.

But personally when I'm tanking and someone asks to clear out all enemies, I'll accept.

I mainly tank. I'm also trying to be an omnicrafter.

If I get the new to dungeon/first timer message I do a full mapping run, explaining the bosses as we come to them and grabbing all the chests.

I make sure to clear with the group if I'm going speedrun, skip any chests with only pinks (such as the goblin chests in longstop), avoid any mob groups, or go after vintage materials. If someone asks me to do a full clear I happily agree.

Being a Jerk is not my style.

I always make sure to ask the group I'm with when I'm tanking, if they want to skip side rooms or not. Like the topic says, it should be a group decision- even if the side rooms don't give great loot, your group could be missing out on experience points.

I agree with this, also with Praetorium and the other level 50 (searchlight darkens) people skip the cutscenes and run off, if you dont you will be behind at that point

In most situations people seem ok skipping side rooms. Most people that are level sync'd to the dungeons are probably just doing it for the daily xp. If you really want to go through the extra stuff it doesn't hurt to ask.

As a tank I check the party list to check for lvl50s. If there are 50s I ask them if they are ok with a full exp sweep. And I always take others feelings into consideration. 1- 2k exp, even for a lvl 48 is pretty sweet. The bonus at the end is just that. .. a bonus.

If I'm tanking I'll just skip everything to get finished as quickly as possible. However if someone asks to do the side rooms then I'll take the time to clear those as well. Most of the time people don't say anything, or they do it well after we passed them.

How about you just ask the group when you enter the instance that you want the exp/rewards

this rant and thread was so necessary

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Originally Posted by SkyHighDN

BUT if everyone is sync-ed down to the level... the ASSUMPTION is that everyone has done this dungeon before, and most players just wanna get through the content as fast as possible..

I think if you want to do the full dungeon for the random useless treasure chest, then by all means, speak up.

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I agree with this. When I'm tanking, I'll usually assume people want to get through the dungeon as efficiently as possible unless they speak up. I'll usually ask if anyone wants to get a treasure chest if there is a split path. Most tanks will be ok doing the full dungeon. Some people have bad attitudes and will leave the dungeon if it's not a speedrun, but personally I wouldn't want to run with someone like that anyway.

Don't be rude about it though, it's all about communication. Be friendly, eloquent, and nice in dungeons and you will be treated accordingly (: